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"...Until all the lights went out..."

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"...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 7:38 am

Geneva Hines testimony:

Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. 


Some claim this is a reference to the power being cut in the building - others point out she is clearly referencing a cessation of calls due to the imminent arrival of the motorcade.

This has always troubled me - and it has finally dawned on me why.

Firstly, the TSBD covered 5 states - Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and New Mexico. Presumably they took calls from all 5 of those states. Why should anyone in other parts of Texas - let alone anyone in the other states, give a rat's patootie about the motorcade's imminent arrive?

Moreover -- would anyone interstate even be following events so closely that they realized the motorcade was running late? Because we are expected to believe here that not only did customers in 4 other states care that a motorcade was in progress - but knew - even though it was running late - when it was just about to pass by the TSBD.

What utter crap.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 12:27 pm

Interesting insight and I agree with your reasoning. 

Her statement is really odd because, IIRC, she also said she could hear a woman talking on the telephone behind a closed door. If power was indeed cut, nobody should have been talking this way. Did ALL of the lights go out (i.e., desk, hallway, room overheads, etc.) or was it just the phone lights?

Something is screwy here.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Mon 01 Sep 2014, 11:45 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Interesting insight and I agree with your reasoning. 

Her statement is really odd because, IIRC, she also said she could hear a woman talking on the telephone behind a closed door. If power was indeed cut, nobody should have been talking this way. Did ALL of the lights go out (i.e., desk, hallway, room overheads, etc.) or was it just the phone lights?

Something is screwy here.
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company. 
Mr. BALL. What did you do then? 
Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out. 
Mr. BALL. On to Elm? 
Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass. 
Mr. BALL. I See. 
Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door. 
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked? 
Miss HINE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. That was which company? 
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co. 
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her? 
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door. 
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office? 
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. 
Mr. BALL. Did they come in rapidly? 
Miss HINE They did come in rapidly. 

----------------

So according to her testimony, all the lights went out on the phones as the motorcade arrived

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time? 
Miss HINE. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

-------------------
They apparently came back on straight after the assassination.

As for what lights - I believe she is talking only about phone lights - which only lit up with incoming calls. 

She says not only did calls start coming in straight after the assassination - but they were coming in "rapidly". Ball doesn't ask if these were customers who had put off ringing until the motorcade had passed - or whether it was concerned friends and family of employees. Certainly neither Marina nor Ruth were among those callers.

-------------------------
But it gets weirder - in CE 1381, Vida Lee Whatley said she went to lunch at 12:15 and was not allowed back in when she returned at 1pm - so if she is telling the truth - someone else was on using her phone.

_________________
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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-----------------------------
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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Goban Saor on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 1:28 am

In relation to your final point, Greg, are you confusing two people referred to in Ms Hine's testimony - Mrs Lee Watley and the 'girl' in the Southwestern Publishing Co office?

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 5:41 am

Goban Saor wrote:In relation to your final point, Greg, are you confusing two people referred to in Ms Hine's testimony - Mrs Lee Watley and the 'girl' in the Southwestern Publishing Co office?
Thanks Goban - yes, I was -- so no mystery there except the name of the person.

Late night posting Embarassed

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 5:50 am

Being daytime, I doubt many - if any - office lights were on.

Right now, I'm leaning to the elevators being cut at certain times and the phones being cut at the time of the assassination - but apparently not for a large amount of time.

I believe the power board for the elevators was in the basement. 

And why the hell didn't Ruth or Marina try and ring to check on Lee when they knew he worked in that building? I know not everyone reacts to things the way we think they should - but that doesn't automatically erase the question mark left hanging...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by beowulf on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 2:13 am

"lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling"

Its confusing because  "and" is doing some heavy lifting here. I believe she was trying to make two discrete points in one run-on sentence.
1. The phones became dead because TSBD employees intentionally ended their calls so they could watch the motorcade. In my experience with multiline phone systems, a phone line is lit up as occupied regardless if its an incoming or outgoing call.
2. No outside calls were coming in at that moment. You can chalk it up to happenstance or the fact it was lunchtime in that time zone, but its believable that 12:30 on a Friday afternoon was a slow time for receiving calls.

One other point,the switchboard may have only been for TSBD (the company) phones and not for every single phone in the TSBD (the building). Building tenants, like Southwestern Publishing, may have had their own direct lines that wouldn't light up the TSBD switchboard.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 2:28 am

beowulf wrote:"lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling"

Its confusing because  "and" is doing some heavy lifting here. I believe she was trying to make two discrete points in one run-on sentence.
1. The phones became dead because TSBD employees intentionally ended their calls so they could watch the motorcade. In my experience with multiline phone systems, a phone line is lit up as occupied regardless if its an incoming or outgoing call.
2. No outside calls were coming in at that moment. You can chalk it up to happenstance or the fact it was lunchtime in that time zone, but its believable that 12:30 on a Friday afternoon was a slow time for receiving calls.

One other point,the switchboard may have only been for TSBD (the company) phones and not for every single phone in the TSBD (the building). Building tenants, like Southwestern Publishing, may have had their own direct lines that wouldn't light up the TSBD switchboard.
Great points, beowulf. I think you're right.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 6:19 am

Stan Dane wrote:
beowulf wrote:"lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling"

Its confusing because  "and" is doing some heavy lifting here. I believe she was trying to make two discrete points in one run-on sentence.
1. The phones became dead because TSBD employees intentionally ended their calls so they could watch the motorcade. In my experience with multiline phone systems, a phone line is lit up as occupied regardless if its an incoming or outgoing call.
2. No outside calls were coming in at that moment. You can chalk it up to happenstance or the fact it was lunchtime in that time zone, but its believable that 12:30 on a Friday afternoon was a slow time for receiving calls.

One other point,the switchboard may have only been for TSBD (the company) phones and not for every single phone in the TSBD (the building). Building tenants, like Southwestern Publishing, may have had their own direct lines that wouldn't light up the TSBD switchboard.
Great points, beowulf. I think you're right.
Now that I've been forced to rack my brain a bit more, I agree - the lights lit up merely to indicate a phone was in use, and it does  make sense no outgoing calls were being made. Regarding incoming calls, I guess we could assume that most customer contact by phone was initiated by the TSBD itself. I'd also have to concede that it makes sense that the book companies had their own dedicated lines.

Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved? Frazier eating lunch in the basement where the elevator switch was likely located still troubles me - especially when (depending on which version you go by) it was the first time he'd had lunch  down there.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 6:20 am

I should add, that I am happy to have as many false mysteries taken off the table as possible.`

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:18 am

I am not sure if this tidbit is relevant or not, or if it even applies to the phone system at the TSBD in 1963, but my phone lines (both in Australia and New Zealand) are always still active despite a power cut.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Terry W. Martin on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:24 am

Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:I am not sure if this tidbit is relevant or not, or if it even applies to the phone system at the TSBD in 1963, but my phone lines (both in Australia and New Zealand) are always still active despite a power cut.

That was true here until several years ago.

When we had a power outage we could always call someone at the electric company to let them know. Nowadays, for some reason, they do not have an independent power source.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:34 am

Terry W. Martin wrote:
Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:I am not sure if this tidbit is relevant or not, or if it even applies to the phone system at the TSBD in 1963, but my phone lines (both in Australia and New Zealand) are always still active despite a power cut.

That was true here until several years ago.

When we had a power outage we could always call someone at the electric company to let them know. Nowadays, for some reason, they do not have an independent power source.
That sounds to me like"for no good fucking reason", Terry.
I always keep a corded phone in my cupboard specifically for power cuts. We get a lot outages in this windy and rainy town of mine.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by beowulf on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 1:03 pm

Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved? Frazier eating lunch in the basement where the elevator switch was likely located still troubles me - especially when (depending on which version you go by) it was the first time he'd had lunch down there.

Right, we don't know why and at what time power to the elevator was cut. What's more, are we sure anyone actually rode the elevators after the shooting but before the power cut? Maybe when Baker and Truly ran back to freight elevators they couldn't be called down because shooting team had already cut elevator power to limit 6th floor access to only the back stairway.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 2:56 pm

beowulf wrote:Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved? Frazier eating lunch in the basement where the elevator switch was likely located still troubles me - especially when (depending on which version you go by) it was the first time he'd had lunch  down there.

Right, we don't know why and at what time power to the elevator was cut. What's more, are we sure anyone actually rode the elevators after the shooting but before the power cut? Maybe when Baker and Truly ran back to freight elevators they couldn't be called down because shooting team had already cut elevator power to limit 6th floor access to only the back stairway.  
Why would somebody want to eat their lunch in a basement?
 
A couple of the homes I lived in as a kid had basements. They were dark, damp and musty. Poorly ventilated. Cobwebs. Like the basement in A Christmas Story. My brother, a carpenter, did some work in an old hotel in Illinois in the 1970s. I stopped by to see him once and followed him around for a while. We went into the basement to get some equipment and it almost gave me the creeps.
 
So if I'm working in an old building like the TSBD, why would I want to eat my lunch down in a dark, dingy basement? I have two lunchrooms to choose from as well as other places throughout the building.
 
What business would I have down in the basement anyway? Was stock stored down there?

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:11 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
beowulf wrote:Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved? Frazier eating lunch in the basement where the elevator switch was likely located still troubles me - especially when (depending on which version you go by) it was the first time he'd had lunch  down there.

Right, we don't know why and at what time power to the elevator was cut. What's more, are we sure anyone actually rode the elevators after the shooting but before the power cut? Maybe when Baker and Truly ran back to freight elevators they couldn't be called down because shooting team had already cut elevator power to limit 6th floor access to only the back stairway.  
Why would somebody want to eat their lunch in a basement?
 
A couple of the homes I lived in as a kid had basements. They were dark, damp and musty. Poorly ventilated. Cobwebs. Like the basement in A Christmas Story. My brother, a carpenter, did some work in an old hotel in Illinois in the 1970s. I stopped by to see him once and followed him around for a while. We went into the basement to get some equipment and it almost gave me the creeps.
 
So if I'm working in an old building like the TSBD, why would I want to eat my lunch down in a dark, dingy basement? I have two lunchrooms to choose from as well as other places throughout the building.
 
What business would I have down in the basement anyway? Was stock stored down there?
I agree Stan --

Mr. BALL - When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.  Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables there and sometimes talk or go to sleep. 
---------------------
Okay - most of the time he eats with his workmates in the domino room - on rare occasions up in the main lunch-room. But then later he says he leaves his lunch and hangs his coat in the mornings.
----------------------
Mr. BALL - When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I went like I did every morning, I went down in the basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch. 
Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald down there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No; I didn't. 
---------------------------
Next he appears to suggest he did eat on the first floor
---------------------------
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the first floor? 

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there. 
----------------------------------
But no; he did eat in the basement alone - ostensibly because he was in a hurry with the lunch period nearly over.
-----------------------------
Mr. FRAZIER - We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there. 
Mr. BALL - Got your lunch? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Come back up? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. 
Mr. BALL - You never went back to work? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day. 
----------------
By the time of the Shaw trial he'd forgotten the script about usually eating with his work group in the domino room:


Q: Where inside the building did you eat your lunch? 
A: I usually eat my lunch in the basement where I hang up my coat. I sat down like I usually did and ate my lunch. 
---------------------------------------------------

On a side note, I only just noticed this in his WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - What time did they tell you to go home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was. 
Mr. BALL - Had the police officers come in there and talked to you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us. 
Mr. BALL - Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there. 
Mr. BALL - Asked you who you were with? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't. 
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home. 


Maybe it's just me looking too hard... but this sounds a lot like what Harry Holmes claimed Oswald said...


Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
--------------
I think the problem is, Harry has essentially remembered correctly but is conflating events and/or compressing time. 

I believe the "commotion" Oswald went downstairs to check on was the arrival of the motorcade - and gets filmed in the PM position. Holmes is merely assuming he is talking about coming down from an upper floor. Although unstated, Oswald must have gone back inside pretty quickly after the shots and eventually hears talk about no more work. By that time, the cops are there and from here on, what is described is pretty much the same scenario as Frazier described in that he is talked to by one cop and asked to step aside and wait (for another cop?).

Either Oswald was psychic and knew what was going on after he left, pr he was there and experienced it first hand. 

And this is just another odd coincidence -- both described the same lunch in the same paper bag...

Here's the basement -- just the place to keep and eat your lunch. Who needs tables and chairs and a fridge? 





Could that conveyor belt come in handy for anything other than stock? 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:00 pm

greg parker wrote:Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved?

I believe there was a power outage to the freight elevators just after 12:58 pm, when Luke Mooney reached the second floor with the two TSBD female employees. Other than that, I don't recall any other time(s) when the power to the elevators may have been cut out.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 10:37 pm

Anyone wishing to control the NW freight elevators merely has to keep the gates open. No need to cut the power. I believe the west elevator was on the 6th floor when Truly and Baker were in the east elevator. It then went to a lower floor. Likely not driven by Jack Dougherty.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 6:04 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
greg parker wrote:Is it fair to say though that the question on the elevators remains unresolved?

I believe there was a power outage to the freight elevators just after 12:58 pm, when Luke Mooney reached the second floor with the two TSBD female employees. Other than that, I don't recall any other time(s) when the power to the elevators may have been cut out.
FWIW…
 
Walt Brown's chronology mentions the power cut event to the elevators in the 12:40 p.m. entry. Quoting Mooney here:
 
"I'd estimate that I was in the parking area less than ten minutes; whereupon I noticed a big open wire gate near the freight area of the Book Depository. I saw a citizen there and said, 'Let’s close this off, lock it, and don't let anybody in or out unless they're an officer with identification.' I then went into the back of the Book Depository where the freight dock was located where there was also a back entrance to a series of offices. I knew how to operate a freight elevator, so we pushed the button and went up one floor. But after one floor, the power was cut and the elevator quit operating, so we took the stairs and went toward the upper levels."
 
Walt's comments:
 
"It’s unclear whether the power was cut only to the elevator, or building wide, the latter possibility being extremely foolish; the former, decent procedure for security purposes. Most people who are in elevators when the power is cut wind up stuck inside the elevator. Mooney, apparently, was unique in that regard—although the miracle of his apparent self-extraction is not even noted or explained."

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 7:01 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Walt's comments:
 
"It’s unclear whether the power was cut only to the elevator, or building wide, the latter possibility being extremely foolish; the former, decent procedure for security purposes. Most people who are in elevators when the power is cut wind up stuck inside the elevator. Mooney, apparently, was unique in that regard—although the miracle of his apparent self-extraction is not even noted or explained."

Thanks, Stan. I don't have the time to go into any details, but my belief that the power was cut out to the elevators after 12:58 pm is explained in the first half of my essay on Gerald Hill:

http://www.ctka.net/2014/hill.html

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 7:29 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:Walt's comments:
 
"It’s unclear whether the power was cut only to the elevator, or building wide, the latter possibility being extremely foolish; the former, decent procedure for security purposes. Most people who are in elevators when the power is cut wind up stuck inside the elevator. Mooney, apparently, was unique in that regard—although the miracle of his apparent self-extraction is not even noted or explained."

Thanks, Stan. I don't have the time to go into any details, but my belief that the power was cut out to the elevators after 12:58 pm is explained in the first half of my essay on Gerald Hill:

http://www.ctka.net/2014/hill.html
Thanks Hasan. I was just trying to cross-check this with Walt's book. I'll give your essay a good read tomorrow as I know your reasoning is sound.

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Re: "...Until all the lights went out..."

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