Choose Search Type

Display results as :

Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» ROKC Lampoon
Today at 2:42 pm by Hasan Yusuf

» FBI agent Robert P. Gemberling
Today at 12:51 am by Hasan Yusuf

» JFK Conference
Yesterday at 10:48 pm by barto

» Shirley Temple is Prayer Man According to Duncan McRae
Yesterday at 6:31 pm by steely dan

» How did a Monty Python sketch get into the archives?
Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:06 pm by steely dan

» William Shelley- Betrayal and Perjury
Sat 22 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm by Paul Francisco Paso

» Amon G. Carter and son
Sat 22 Oct 2016, 12:57 am by Greg Martin

» Was truly the source of the police description?
Fri 21 Oct 2016, 8:21 pm by barto

»  Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?
Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:43 pm by Hasan Yusuf

Log in

I forgot my password

Social bookmarking

Social bookmarking Digg  Social bookmarking Delicious  Social bookmarking Reddit  Social bookmarking Stumbleupon  Social bookmarking Slashdot  Social bookmarking Furl  Social bookmarking Yahoo  Social bookmarking Google  Social bookmarking Blinklist  Social bookmarking Blogmarks  Social bookmarking Technorati  

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

RSS feeds


free forum

Larry Crafard

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Larry Crafard

Post by JFK Student on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 1:20 am

The following is taken from the book Oswald The Truth by Joachim Joesten

Enter Larry Crafard (by stealth)
Crafard: A Murky Background
Exit Crafard (in a Hurry)

Enter Larrv Crafard (by stealth)

IT is established, then, that Ruby on October 4. 1963, held a conspiratorial meeting with a man who was not Lee Harvey Oswald, but who looked very much like him and who used an almost identical cover name. Murder was on their minds and the Texas School Book Depository was being discussed as a convenient place from where to shoot at a parade with a rife.

We do not know how their conversation ended, but it so happens that in the following weeks a large number of people
saw Ruby at the Carousel Club or elsewhere in the company of a person in whom they subsequently recognized the man who was accused of having assassinated President Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald.

District Attorney Henry Wade himself conceded before the Warren Commission that there were ‘some 8 to io witnesses
who have said they had seen Ruby and Oswald together at various times.’ He didn’t bother to put any of them on the stand at the Ruby trial and he never gave the Commission any details,except for his garbled account, of his dealings with Jarnagin. the lawyer. And the Commission. as we have seen, did not press him to the point where any real information might have been forthcoming. It also failed to insist on elucidation of another incident that cropped up twice during the hearing of Wade.

At one point in the proceedings, Wade stated:

‘We had a waitress that I think you are all familiar with that was out at B 8; B Café at '5 am. on the 22nd who said she served Ruby and Oswald there. B and B Café on Oak Lane. I know you have got that. I have seen it somewhere.’

Let's nail that down a little more firmly than the evasive Mr. Wade cares to do. He has information that a waitress at a Dallas restaurant asserted after the assassination that she had served together that very same morning Kennedy's presumed assassin and the man who was to become his killer.

Information of capital importance. if true. Was it true? To find out. one had to verify. What did Wade do?

When Senator Cooper asked him-in a different context~‘Did anyone else tell you that they had seen Ruby and Oswald
talking together 3' he replied: ‘No one else personally has told me this.’

COOPER: ‘You mentioned a girl.‘

\VADE: ‘No, I never talked to her but we had the Dallas Police take an affidavit from her and so did the FBI of that which is in all your files. What her name is, I just know it is a waitress out at the B 84 B Café. She lived in Mesquite, Tex., and some of my ‘people interviewed her and she told them the same thing she told the FBI.'

Although Wade had said in one place ‘a waitress that I think you are all familiar with‘ and in another had stated that her
af?davit is ‘in all your files.’ one would leaf in vain through the VVarren Report trying to get some more information about this curious incident.

To be sure. the Report. in Chapter VI. subhead ‘Ruby's activities from November 2i to November 24, 1963,’ does state that on the early morning of the fateful November 22nd ‘as late as 2 : 3o a.m., Ruby was seen eating at a restaurant near the Vegas Club.’ an obvious reference to the B 8L B Cafe’. but then it drops the matter like a hot potato. The next item is how Ruby learned of the shooting.

Whenever the Commission acts in this manner, making short shrift of a piece of evidence that normally would seem to require the most thorough attention. one may be sure that it is getting hot on the trail of something it wants to avoid. One would think a Commission purporting to ?find the truth about a presidential assassination might and such a tip as the unidentified waitress at the B 8; B Café had provided interesting enough to subject it to intensive verification.

Yet the Commission neither called upon this girl to testify nor did it mention her in the Report or include her statements
to the police and the FBI among the published affidavits. She is simply ignored —a ‘non-person’ as they would say in Russia.

Evidently the Commission sensed that by pursuing this thread it would become enmeshed in a web of conspiracy beyond hope of extricating itself.

By contrast, the Commission does mention by name several other persons who had alleged they had seen Oswald and Ruby together and then proceeds to discredit them one by one or to distort their testimony in the usual manner.

For instance. the Report states: ‘Willbryn Waldon (Robert)Litchfield II also claimed to have seen at the Carousel Club a
man resembling Oswald. Litchfield stated that during a visit to the Carousel Club in late October or early November 1963, he saw such a man enter Ruby's office. apparently to confer with Ruby. Although there is substantial evidence that Litchfield did see Ruby at the Carousel Club about that time,there is strong reason to believe that Litchfield did not see Lee Harvey Oswald. Litchfield described the man he saw as having pockmarks on the right side of his chin. Oswald did not have such identifying marks.‘

Now Litchfield gets his spanking, the way all witnesses are treated who testified to something the Commission didn't care to hear :

‘Moreover. the Commission has substantial doubts concerning Litchfield's credibility. Although present at an FBI interview of another witness on November 29, Litchfield made no mention of his observation to public officials until December 2. io63 [then, Why was he present at all at the interview of another witness?—]. ].]. Litchfield who had twice been convicted for offenses involving forged checks, testified that he first recalled that Oswald resembled the visitor he saw at the Carousel Club while watching a television showing on Sunday morning, November 24, of the shooting by Ruby. At that time Litchfield was playing poker with three friends. and he testified that he
promptly informed them of the resemblance he observed. However. none of the three poker companions remembered Litchfield's making such a remark: and two added that Litchfields statements were often untrustworthy.’

It will be noted that Litchfield. according to this official account. never alleged that he had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club. He had observed there a person ‘resembling Oswald.’ When he watched the murder of Oswald by Ruby on television he first recalled that Oswald resembled the visitor’ and then informed his poker friends ‘of the resemblance he observed.’

In other words, Litchfield had gotten a pretty good look at The False Oswald as he entered Ruby's office for a conference with the latter. Precisely for that reason, it may be presumed,Litchfield was slapped down so hard by the Commission which all along has shown a certain leniency for people who felt sure they had seen Oswald in Ruby's company (and who, by the same token. certainly were in error) but was merciless toward witnesses who had noticed in Ruby's club a person resembling Oswald. By this very difference in approach the Commission has indicated that it was intensely—and uneasily — aware of the existence of a ‘double’ who posed as Oswald and in fact conspired with others to frame the real Lee Harvey.

To Be Continued

JFK Student

Posts : 208
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 7:09 am

Thanks for posting this, student. I'll try to find some time tonight to give it a read.

Hasan Yusuf

Posts : 1717
Join date : 2013-03-13
Age : 27
Location : Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by JFK Student on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 4:21 pm

Heavy pressure was brought to bear by the Dallas police, the FBI, and finally by the legal staff of the Commission itself on a number of witnesses who claimed to have seen Oswald (or a person resembling him) and Ruby together. in order to make them change their story. A case in point is that of the ‘master of ceremonies‘ at the Carousel Club at the time of the Dallas tragedy. The Warren Report presents him in these terms:

‘William D. Crowe. Jr. [stage name Bill DeMarr—]. J.], a young master of ceremonies who had worked for Ruby on three occasions and had begun a 4- or 5-week engagement at the Carousel Club on November I i, 1963. was the first person who reported a possible association between Ruby and Oswald.

While attempting to enter the Carousel Club on November 24,shortly after Oswald was shot. Crowe encountered two news ‘media representatives who were gathering information on Jack ‘Ruby. At that time, Crowe. who included a memory act in his repertoire, mentioned the “possibility" that he had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club. As a result he was asked to appear on television. In Crowe’s own words. the story “started snow-
balling.” He testified:

' “They built up the memory thing and they built up the bit of having seen Oswald there, and I never stated definitely, positively, and they said that I did. and all in all. what they had in the paper was hardly even close to what I told them."

‘Crowe added that his memory act involved a limited system which did not, in fact, improve his memory and that his memory might not even be as good as that of the average person. When asked how certain he was that the man he saw was Oswald, Crowe testified:  . . the face seemed familiar as some faces do, and I had associated him with a patron that I had seen in the club a week before. That was about it " '

‘Three observations are in order. In the first place. the Commission, following its usual tactics in such cases, tries to play down the episode: Crowe had mentioned merely the ‘possibility’ that he had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club (actually, Crowe, in his television appearance, was much more positive than that): his memory act, which would suggest that Crowe had a good recollection of the incident in question. was, to the Commission, nothing to make a song about.

Secondly, Crowe, by the time he was questioned by a member of  Commission's legal staff, appears to have been thoroughly intimidated, as his apologetic declarations show. The effect of this pressure is apparent from the following statement District Attorney Wade made before the Commission in answer to the following question from Mr. Dulles:

‘You referred, Mr. some testimony or some evidence that Oswald was at some time in the Carousel when Ruby was there. Was that solely from this lawyer whose testimony vou have mentioned?’ '

 ‘WADE: ‘The only one of my personal knowledge that I talked with was from the lawyer. He told me he was there with a certain girl. a stripper. and Ruby and Oswald were in an adjoining booth. There is lots of other people. I think your master of ceremonies. they had him on television and said he had seen them there but later on said he hadn't when they got to interviewing him. . . .’

Thirdly, an obvious diversion is created by Crowe’s remark about an unidenti?ed newspaper (‘what they had in the paper was hardly even close to what I told them’), whereas what really matters is Crowe’s appearance on television. On this score. and on the manifest harassment to which the young MC was subjected, Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in The New York Journal-American on the eve of the publication of the Warren Report:

‘Presumably the long-awaited Warren Report will explain what has happened to characters who were important in the Kennedy-Oswald-Ruby drama in November, but have since vanished like ripples of water. ‘

‘There is Bill Demarr, the personable master of ceremonies at Ruby's Carousel Club. who also did a memory act and appeared on television shortly after Ruby shot Oswald. When asked by a television interviewer whether he had ever seen Oswald in Ruby's club. DeMarr said yes. as a matter of fact as soon as he had seen Oswald's picture after his arrest he had recognized him as a customer who had participated in the memory act a night or so before the assassination.

‘There was no reason for DeMarr to invent this story: ‘he would have been on television anyway, getting publicity which might be valuable to him. because the newscasters and reporters were grabbing anybody who knew anything about Jack Ruby,and DeMarr would have been shoved on camera lust to tell what jack Ruby was like as a boss. regardless of whether he had ever seen Oswald. .

‘And what has it profited DeMarr? He was last reported working in a Bayonne. N.]. nightclub, and that place does ‘not have his current address and no one can ?nd him. His union AGVA, will not reveal his address to anyone who asks about him is told to "write to him in care of the union. and we will forward the letter." ' .

To Be Continued

JFK Student

Posts : 208
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by JFK Student on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 4:25 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Thanks for posting this, student. I'll try to find some time tonight to give it a read.

You are welcome,Hassan.

JFK Student

Posts : 208
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by JFK Student on Sat 06 Sep 2014, 4:33 pm

Crowe, then, has gone into hiding, obviously in fear of his life. He is not the only inconvenient witness who has been badgered and bounded by the police and the FBI (remember as Wade put it. ‘later on said he hadn't when they got to interviewing him‘) beyond endurance. Many of them even were killed. as will be detailed in a subsequent chapter. . .

Now back to the Warren Report and this interesting item :

‘A possible explanation for Crowe’s belief that Oswald's face seemed familiar was supplied by a freelance photographer Eddie Rocco. who had taken pictures at the Carousel Club for Ruby at about the time Crowe was employed there. Rocco produced one of those photographs which depicted a man who might have been mistaken for Oswald by persons having no reason to remember the man at the time they saw him When shown the Rocco photograph. Crowe said that there was as strong a possibility that the man he recalled seeing was the man in the photograph as there was that he was Oswald: Crowe's uncertainty was further underscored by his failure initially to provide his information about Oswald to David Hoy, a newsmedia friend whom Crowe telephoned in Evansville, Ind.. less than 20 minutes after Oswald was shot. By then the possible recognition had occurred to Crowe. and Hoy said he was quite surprised that Crowe had given the information first to other news representatives instead of telling him in that early conversation.'

One wonders why the Commission should have set down in print the totally irrelevant story about Crowe’s dealings with Hoy (apparently Crowe felt he could get more out of his information by reserving it for the bigger news media). unless it was for the purpose of obscuring the crucially important sentence that went before. For. if Crowe. on viewing the Rocco picture. stated that there was ‘as strong a possibility that the man he recalled seeing was the man in the photograph as there was that he was Oswald.‘ then this can mean only one thing:there were two different people of uncanny resemblance to one another. one of whom was actually photographed at Ruby's club and his opposite number, the real Oswald.

The Warren Report goes on to say:‘After Crowe’s identification had been publicized. four other persons also reported seeing Oswald at the Carousel Club. One man said he saw Ruby and Oswald seated at a table together and recalled that the man resembling Oswald was addressed by a blond-haired waitress as “Bettit" or “Pettit." The witness was unable to give any description of “Pettit." except that he was the man who had been shot by Ruby. He could not describe the inside of the Carousel and was unable to give a precise location for the club. Another witness. a resident of Tennessee. related seeing a man resembling Oswald at the Carousel Club on November 1o. Ruth Paine has testified. however. that Oswald spent the entire holiday week-end of November 9, 10 and 11 at her home in Irving, Tex.’

I'll deal with the case of ‘Pettit' in another context. The instance of the resident from Tennessee is particularly important. In contrast with others, he is not discredited by the Commission as an unreliable witness; his observation of ‘a man resembling Oswald’ at the Carousel Club. then. may be taken for granted. Ruth Paine's statement that Oswald was at her home on the day in question does not invalidate the Tennessean's observations, as the Commission makes it appear. Instead it once more proves my point: there was a False Oswald whom quite a few people saw at Ruby's place and whom they, after ' ‘The testimony of a few witnesses who claim to have seen the assassination. erroneously believed to have been the real M Mwe Ruby with «a person who they feel may have been Oswald warrants further comment.. The situation is perfectly clear: on November 10, 1963.   One such witness, Robert K. Patterson.
Lee Harvey Oswald was at Mrs. Paine's home. Irving; on the a Dallas electronics salesman. has stated that on a date estab same date his double was observed at the Carousel Club. This is lished from sales records as November I. 1963, Ruby, accompanied by a man who resembled Oswald. purchased some equip-
also corroborated by the next passage in the Warren Report:
‘Two of Ruby's former employees. Karen Carlin and Billy Joe merit at his business establishment. However. Patterson did not
Willis. also believed they had seen a person who resembled claim positively that the man he saw was Oswald, and two of
Oswald. Willis believed he saw the man at the Carousel Club his associates who were also present at the time could not state
but did not think the man was Oswald. Mrs. Carlin likewise was that the man was Oswald. Other evidence indicates that Ruby’sl
not certain that the man was Oswald nor was she sure where companion was I. ‘r Crafard. Crafard. who lived at the
she had seen him. . .  Carousel Club while working for Ruby from mid-October until

Adding it all up, then. we have at least ?ve persons known by November 23, 1963 [my itaIics—I. ].]. stated that sometime in V
name (Carroll Jarnagin. William D. Crowe, W. VV. Litch?eld ll, late October or early November he accompanied Ruby to an
Karen Carlin and Billy Joe Willis) who had observed a man electronics store in connection with the purchase of electronics
resembling Oswald at Ruby's club; some of them thought this equipment. Ruth Paine testi?ed that Crafard's photograph bears
person was in fact Oswald. while others did not. In addition, we a strong resemblance to Oswald; and employment records of the ,
have the testimony of the waitress at the B & B Café to the effect Texas School Book Depository show that Oswald worked a full‘
that she had served Ruby and a man resembling Oswald on the  day on November I. i963.‘
very morning of the assassination. i.e. at a time when the real I So there it is. There's your cat out of the bag—and what a
Oswald was sound asleep at the home of Mrs. Paine in Irving. ; specimen it is! In mid-October, i.e. about ten days after Ruby

nd. to boot. there is the photographic evidence produced by has clandestinely conferred about murder with a young drifter
‘ddie Rocco. It must have been impressive since the Commission about Oswald's age and strongly resembling Oswald and who.
decided not to reproduce for the public the likeness of the man moreover. in his ownwords. ‘needs a place to stay and a job.’
snapped at Ruby's club who looked so much like Oswald that at a fellow subsequently identi?ed by half a dozen witnesses as
least half a dozen persons mistook him for the latter.

JFK Student

Posts : 208
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by Guest on Mon 08 Sep 2014, 2:35 pm

Hi JFK Student, that last quote there got a bit messed, it's interesting stuff though.

Hm. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this thread is, Student. First it seems like you're trying to convince us it "was" Oswald that Ruby was seen with, and then you seem to suggest it "wasn't".

The best story I heard (lemme see if I can find it real quick while we're talking), is Oswald wandered into the Carousel Club one day while a show was going on, and then asked one of the guests very loudly whether he was a Communist. "I'll bet you're a Communist", or some such thing.

Whereupon, Jack Ruby promptly threw Oswald down the stairs, and said, "I told you never to come in here, you sonuvabitch."

It helps to document stuff inline as much as possible (like this )

And thank you for the tip on this, I'm going to add the information you posted into the set of cross references on my web site.

Ah yes, here it is - Wally Weston. This came from the Shari Angel interview:

Shari Angel's husband, Walter "Wally" Weston, was the Carousel's master
of ceremonies until five days before the assassination. In 1976, he told
the New York *Daily News* he had seen Ruby and Oswald together in the
club at least twice. He recalls one especially notable occasion: "I was
working in the club one night approximately three weeks before the
assassination. . . . doing my bit, and this guy was standing near the
back wall. . . . The guy walked right in front of the stage, and for no
reason he said, 'I think you're a Communist.' I said, 'Sir, I'm an
American. Why don't you sit down.' He said, 'Well, I still think you're a
Communist,' so I jumped off the stage and hit him. Jack was right behind
him . . . Jack grabbed him and said, 'You son of a bitch, I told you
never to come in here.' And he wrestled him to the door and threw him
down the stairs" (64).

(about halfway down the page)

Now, about Crafard. What are you proposing, why is the thread titled "Crafard"? You're suggesting that Crafard was the Oswald look-alike that Jack Ruby was frequently seen with?

Let me ask this (in a general way) - are there any other reports of Oswald sauntering into bars (either half-drunk or "pretending" to be half drunk) and accusing people of being Communists? Is this something that he frequently engaged in, this kind of behavior? If so, whom did he expect to identify this way, exactly? Certainly not college students (even though they probably did frequent the after-hours strip joints to a certain degree) - one would think in this case he had to be going after "businessmen", yes?

And if that's the case... do we know of any actual Cubans who frequented or were seen in the Carousel Club? Is there any reason to believe that Jack Ruby was hanging out with "Cubans" at any point in 1963?


Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by JFK Student on Tue 09 Sep 2014, 8:53 pm

Hi Nonsqtr

Hm. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this thread is, Student. First it seems like you're trying to convince us it "was" Oswald that Ruby was seen with, and then you seem to suggest it "wasn't".

I started this thread to discuss Larry Crafard, and his role if any in impersonating Oswald.I have a book which mentions Crafard a lot so I thought of posting some excerpts from it.

JFK Student

Posts : 208
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by Guest on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:08 am

Crafard is certainly an interesting character. Jack Ruby found him at the carnival, yes? Both Rubys, Jack and Eva, were known to recruit precisely people like this at carnivals - drifters, who needed a few bucks, who could be used for whatever purpose. There are (many) stories about Eva trying to recruit people, first for the purpose of transporting counterfeit gasoline stamps, then later.... the point being that the activity "continued" after the gas stamps, for whatever reason.

In the domain of Oswald look-alikes though, I still find the Kerry Thornley character to be the most interesting. He did resemble Oswald in many ways, and he also didn't have the encumbrance of being tied down to Jack Ruby's Carousel Club. In fact, here's a couple pictures of Thornley:

Anyway, back to Crafard. What do we know about his marriage? He was married to someone at the time he signed on with Jack Ruby, but he didn't know where his wife and kids were. At least that's the allegation.

I'm thinking that Crafard did mostly "odd jobs" for Ruby. Doesn't seem to me that he was involved at any greater level. What do you think?


Back to top Go down

Re: Larry Crafard

Post by Sponsored content Today at 3:51 pm

Sponsored content

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum