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The myth of Harold Dean Norman

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The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 12:31 am

Although I recently posted a link to this post of mine on the "Pillow fights" thread, I felt that I should give it it's own thread to attract more readers. As most people reading this probably know, Harold Norman is a favourite witness amongst the LNers because of his claim that he heard three shots, and three spent shell casings falling to the ground right above his head. He also claimed that he heard the bolt of the rifle being worked. However, as I explained in the following post, his claim of seeing the President "slump or something" after the first shot actually supports a conspiracy.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/the-shots-at-zapruder-frame-224-why.html

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Guest on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 9:16 am

According to eyewitness SM Holland, the first shot fired from the TSBD hit JFK, causing him to slump and then raise his right arm. (This is corroborated by a dozen other eyewitnesses).

Also according to SM Holland, the second shot fired from the TSBD direction hit Governor Connally, who was sitting so close to the door that he couldn't turn right to see JFK, and just as he was turning left he got hit.

That accounts for two of the three shots fired from the TSBD.

The third shot fired from the TSBD apparently missed, entirely. It may have been the shot that hit the sidewalk by James Tague.

So, JUST BECAUSE there were (allegedly) "exactly three" shots fired from the TSBD, doesn't mean anything.

We are "pretty darn sure" at this point, that the fatal shot that killed JFK was not fired from the Texas School Book Depository.

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Guest on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 9:21 am

Here - SM Holland apparently agrees with the HSCA (and with the photographic evidence).


Just about the time that the parade turned on Elm Street, about where that truck is - that bus is now, there was a shot came from up-the upper end of the street. I couldn't say then, at that time, that it came from the Book Depository bookstore. But I knew that it came from the other end of the street, and the President slumped over forward like that and tried to raise his hand up. And Governor Connally, sitting in front of him on the right side of the car, tried to turn to his right and he was sitting so close to the door that he couldn't make it that-a-way, and he turned back like that with his arm out to the left. And about that time, the second shot was fired and it knocked him over forward and he slumped to the right, and I guess his wife pulled him over in her lap because he fell over in her lap.

And about that time, there was a third report that wasn't nearly as loud as the two previous reports. It came from that picket fence, and then there was a fourth report. The third and the fourth reports was almost simultaneously. But, the third report wasn't nearly as loud as the two previous reports or the fourth report. And I glanced over underneath that green tree and you see a - a little puff of smoke. It looked like a puff of steam or cigarette smoke. And the smoke was about - oh, eight or ten feet off the ground, and about fifteen feet this side of that tree.

- CBS Television, 26 June 1967

Here is a picture of the puff of smoke that SM Holland saw, which corresponds exactly with the HSCA acoustic location:


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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 7:28 pm

nonsqtr wrote:So, JUST BECAUSE there were (allegedly) "exactly three" shots fired from the TSBD, doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, no kidding.

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 7:53 pm

Reading through Holland's first day affidavit, it is clear to me that Holland thought that the first shot was the head shot. He is dead wrong about that.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1295-001.gif

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 12 Sep 2014, 8:10 pm

nonsqtr wrote:The third shot fired from the TSBD apparently missed, entirely. It may have been the shot that hit the sidewalk by James Tague.

I don't believe for a second that there were three shots fired from the TSBD. Less than two hours after the assassination, Bonnie Ray Williams wrote in his affidavit that he heard TWO shots fired from above his head. How the fuck could he possibly miss hearing a third shot fired from directly above his head? I just don't see how he possibly could have.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0503-001.gif

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Guest on Tue 16 Sep 2014, 6:51 pm

Well, ... the motorcade...

First, the motorcade came around the corner by the TSBD, and proceeded about halfway down the street when there was a sound like a firecracker. Before the sound, JFK was looking to the right and waving, and Jackie was looking off to the left. Right at the time of the first shot (and maybe before or maybe at the exact moment when Jackie noticed it), Jean Hill was yelling at Jackie and Jackie had looked over at her, and Mary Moorman was snapping her Polaroid camera. While the car was coming down the first half of the street, Clint Hill was scanning the grassy knoll area off to the right.

As the first firecracker-like noise rang out, Clint Hill and George Hickey both looked backwards and to the right, in the direction of and towards the TSBD. Sterling Mayfield Holland, who was standing up on the overpass, heard the noise too, and he said it came from the direction of the TSBD.

Now, there's two separate and distinct things going on here, one is, a set of sounds, and the other is, some shots. There is NOT a one-to-one correlation between the sounds and the shots. What the people heard depends on where they were standing, and how experienced they were with small arms. MOST people report three "sounds", but the number of reported shots varies all over the map, from a minimum of three to a maximum of twelve (at least that's the maximum I've heard so far).

How about some terminology? I'll call the physical events that correspond to the acoustic events: the volleys. So, we have a first volley consisting of one sound (bang), and a second volley consisting of two sounds (bang-bang, very close to each other). (Meanwhile umbrella man is pumping his umbrella and radio man has his fist in the air).

The eyewitnesses report that the sequence of SHOTS (not volleys, but actual physical shots) was, in order:

a. Kennedy got shot in the back
    (right around this time there are multiple reports of bullets striking the pavement and/or grass near the limo)

b. Connally got shot
    (thanks to Mrs Connally, we have a very specific sequence on this: FIRST Connally said "oh no", THEN he got shot, THEN he said "my god they're going to kill us all")

c. Kennedy got shot in the head

d. there was at least one additional shot after the head shot

SM Holland who was standing up on the overpass, reports a third shot between the second and fourth, which according to him did NOT emanate from the TSBD area, but instead emanated from the HSCA acoustic location (which corresponds with the point at which the 'puff of smoke' appeared on the grassy knoll). This third shot, he says, was more subdued, not as loud as the rest. The first, second, and fourth, he says, came from the TSBD area, but the third (slighly quieter) report came from the trees at the edge of the overpass.

James Tague, who was standing almost directly underneath the MIDDLE of the overpass (right by one of the concrete support pillars), got hit apparently by a concrete chip from a stray bullet hitting the sidewalk. That bullet, obviously, missed JFK and Connally - and it's the reason for the existence of the Magic Bullet theory. But the Magic Bullet theory is completely contradicted by Mrs Connally's eyewitness testimony. The Magic Bullet theory is incompatible with the facts and the evidence. The eyewitnesses agree too, it was a separate bullet that hit Connally, about a second (less than two) after the one that hit JFK in the back (long enough for Connally to try to turn around to his right, but being unable to do so because he was sitting too close to the door, to turn right instead and try to look back at JFK). Zapruder film junkies place the delta at somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 seconds - in other words, a minimum of nine frames.

Neither Gov Connally nor Mrs Connally has ever contested the concept that the same bullet that passed through Connally's body also penetrated his wrist. Let's shelve this one for a moment, remembering that it's still dangling.

The eyewitnesses leave us with FOUR bullets accounted for: the Tague bullet, plus the three that hit the people in the limo. However, that's not the end of the story. Turns out, the Tague bullet was probably not jacketed, whereas the others were - and therefore the Tague bullet was fired by a different person from a different rifle. That means we have at least THREE shooters (none of which may be Oswald) - we have possibly two "up the street" in the direction of the TSBD, and we have another "down the street" where the underpass meets the grassy knoll. So then, I have a question: WHY is everyone so focused on Oswald? First of all, the evidence says the kill shot didn't come from the TSBD, it came from the OTHER direction. So why do we care about Oswald? Why aren't we focused on the OTHER guy, the person who fired the rifle at the HSCA acoustic location?

Those who've studied the TSBD, many of us are quite convinced that Oswald never fired a shot that day (and certainly not a rifle shot), and Brown Suit Man is the one we want. He's the one who was seen in the TSBD window by half a dozen eyewitnesses moments before the assassination. He's the one who ran down the grassy knoll and into a waiting car a couple of minutes after the assassination. But what of the other guy? What of the HSCA shooter? We don't know much of anything about him, except that he may have run up the railroad tracks in a northerly direction immediately after the assassination.

There are plenty of disturbing little tidbits about the assassination, for instance there was a car parked directly underneath the overpass at the time the puff of smoke appeared by the trees. We don't know anything about that car, to my knowlege. It doesn't appear in any official report, and yet there it is, in view of the lead car and the follow-up car. Just before the assassination, Winston Lawson is "frantically trying to wave onlookers off the overpass". How do you do that, from the inside of a non-convertible sedan? What did he do, open the window and lean out and wave his arms around?

And what about Chief Curry? The very first thing he said (after "let's get to the hospital") was, "go get a man up there and find out what happened up on that overpass". Why did he say that? There can be little doubt he saw the puff of smoke. They ALL must have seen it, it was right there in front of them.

Did the limo stop during the assassination? Sure it did. Just for a moment. It was when both Greer and Kellerman turned around to look at the President. Then Kellerman immediately told Greer, "get going, we've been hit", and there would have been no reason for him to say that except for the fact that they weren't ("going") at the time.

Another glaring fact that leapt off the page as I was reading through the evidence, is that WInston Lawson doesn't know which radio the hospital call came in on. Lawson says:
Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential
limousine), November 23, 1963: “I heard a report over the radio
(either the police or our own network) that we should proceed to a hospital.”
[Statement: CE771: 17H628–9]

Jean Hill claims she heard five or six shots (and she gets ridiculed for it). The physical evidence and eyewitness testimony says there has to be at least four, no less. Three is out of the question, it's not possible. The Magic Bullshit Theory is right up there with the UFO space aliens and the little Illuminati gnomes from Zurich.

There was unquestionably one shot that entered Kennedy's back, which resulted in the grimace you see in the Zapruder film just as the limo emerges from behind the sign. There is unquestionably a different shot that entered Connally's back about one second later, corroborated by the films and by eyewitness testimony from the likes of Mrs Connally who was sitting right next to her husband when it all happened.

And then there is unquestionably the head shot, and there is unquestionably the Tague bullet. That's four.

There are several eyewitness reports (including police officers) of seeing at least one shot hitting the street near the back left of the limo, right around the time of the first volley.

There is also the possibility of a bullet having penetrated the windshield of the limo.

However the four are rock-solid, they can't be mangled like the WC tried (unsuccessfully) to do.

Here's what I think - on the correlation between the sounds and the shots.

Whoever did this was smart. They'd already cased the joint, knew what kinds of echos there were. Why would only three of the shots sound loud like cannon fire? Why... maybe it was planned that way. The three were either logistical or they were decoys. Just like radio man and the umbrella man. The SOUNDS are very well decoys. The bullets, can't be. The bullets have to be real. And there were at least four of those (sound or not).

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 17 Sep 2014, 12:43 am

nonsqtr wrote:Zapruder film junkies place the delta at somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 seconds - in other words, a minimum of nine frames

What the heck do you mean by Zapruder film "junkies?" Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify that for us.

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 17 Sep 2014, 12:54 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
nonsqtr wrote:Zapruder film junkies place the delta at somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 seconds - in other words, a minimum of nine frames

What the heck do you mean by Zapruder film "junkies?" Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify that for us.

Never mind. I think I know WTF you meant. So fucking tired right now!

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Guest on Wed 17 Sep 2014, 5:54 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Reading through Holland's first day affidavit, it is clear to me that Holland thought that the first shot was the head shot. He is dead wrong about that.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1295-001.gif

"I will come back and tell Bill"?

He said that in an official affidavit?

Wow...

SM Holland is a key witness. As near as I can tell he accurately reports a great number of specifics about the motorcade events. His best piece is in the Warren Commission proceedings 6H239. If you read to p. 243 that's probably where Lifton's "shooters in the trees" come from, Holland describes the puff ot smoke as 6 to 8 feet off the ground.

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 17 Sep 2014, 9:11 pm

I strongly encourage anyone with a genuine interest in learning how the shooting went down on that terrible day to read through Pat Speer's analysis of the eye/ear witness statements; the most thorough analysis there is. It's pretty damn clear to me that there was at least one silenced shot at circa Zapruder frame 224. The statements of Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, and James Earl Jarman (all of whom were standing just one floor below the so-called sniper's next) alone demonstrate that this was the case.

My belief is that there were two (and ONLY two) shots fired from the so-called sniper's nest, with a sniper firing from near the corner of the stockade fence on top of the grassy knoll, and a sniper firing from the upper floors of the Dal-Tex building. I don't think he was on the roof, as he would have exposed himself to witnesses on the ground.

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Re: The myth of Harold Dean Norman

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