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Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:35 am

Stan Dane

If someone were to ask me what the # 1 guiding principle of ROKC is, I would say that nothing is sacred and everything must be questioned and validated. Everything.

If Lee Oswald did not ride to work with Buell Wesley Frazier on the morning of November 22, 1963, then everything I think I know about BWF right now is wrong. It puts him in a totally different light.

But after the dismantling of the Second Floor encounter, nothing surprises me.

To my fellow ROKCers and all of the truly great work done over the past couple of weeks, I say "well done."

Stan Dane

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:36 am

Colin Crow

LMR claimed to have not recognised who it was crossing the road on the way to the car. Yet she seems more interested in the package. I do not believe she saw Oswald or any package. Her story at the Paine's on Friday afternoon to the cops is contrived. I thought initially to clear her brother and make him as innocent as possible. Now it might have been to deflect attention from William Randle. Didnt Lee sleep in that morning as well? Perhaps he missed his ride with BWF after all.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:38 am

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

LMR claimed to have not recognised who it was crossing the road on the way to the car. Yet she seems more interested in the package. I do not believe she saw Oswald or any package. Her story at the Paine's on Friday afternoon to the cops is contrived. I thought initially to clear her brother and make him as innocent as possible. Now it might have been to deflect attention from William Randle. Didnt Lee sleep in that morning as well? Perhaps he missed his ride with BWF after all.

Greg Parker

Colin, I can't find anything in Marina's testimony suggesting he was running late.

But for the sake of argument, let's try and follow the official story logically. Officially he walked up to the Randle house because Wes hadn't turned up.

If you are waiting for a lift and they don't turn up at "the usual time", I think it would be mnormal to wait a few minutes before trudging off to their place... especially since you'll be carrying a poorly concealed rifle on the walk along a path offering very little in the way of screening of curious eyes.

But since Wes says at first he is running a little late, then decides he is not... it appears that Oswald did not wait very long (if at all) after Wes was "due".

It is another another gaping hole in the official story.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:38 am

Colin Crow

I must be going senile.....sure I read somewhere where Marina thought he woke late. In any event it seems that he got up, left Marina to feed Rachel.....made and instant coffee etc and left. If he had "the package" he would have to weigh up the pros and cons. Getting the package away from the Paine house ASAP might be a priority so that neither Ruth or Marina might question him about it before BWF arrives. The downside is the risk of carrying it in the rain......and the tape falling apart.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:40 am

Greg Parker

Well... there's another issue... Ruth Paine and kids still being in bed... more than possible, but not the norm with anyone with young kids in my experience. Look at Linnie Mae... she was up and fixing breakfast for everyone. Even the old girl was up...

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:56 am

Stan Dane wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

LMR claimed to have not recognised who it was crossing the road on the way to the car. Yet she seems more interested in the package. I do not believe she saw Oswald or any package. Her story at the Paine's on Friday afternoon to the cops is contrived. I thought initially to clear her brother and make him as innocent as possible. Now it might have been to deflect attention from William Randle. Didnt Lee sleep in that morning as well? Perhaps he missed his ride with BWF after all.

Greg Parker

Colin, I can't find anything in Marina's testimony suggesting he was running late.

But for the sake of argument, let's try and follow the official story logically. Officially he walked up to the Randle house because Wes hadn't turned up.

If you are waiting for a lift and they don't turn up at "the usual time", I think it would be mnormal to wait a few minutes before trudging off to their place... especially since you'll be carrying a poorly concealed rifle on the walk along a path offering very little in the way of screening of curious eyes.

But since Wes says at first he is running a little late, then decides he is not... it appears that Oswald did not wait very long (if at all) after Wes was "due".

It is another another gaping hole in the official story.

Mick Purdy

Greg, the holes are getting larger and larger and yes you're right, Wes running late and then he wasn't. Where does that leave Lee. My guess is Nowhere man! I love the Beatles.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 8:57 am

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

If someone were to ask me what the # 1 guiding principle of ROKC is, I would say that nothing is sacred and everything must be questioned and validated. Everything.

If Lee Oswald did not ride to work with Buell Wesley Frazier on the morning of November 22, 1963, then everything I think I know about BWF right now is wrong. It puts him in a totally different light.

But after the dismantling of the Second Floor encounter, nothing surprises me.

To my fellow ROKCers and all of the truly great work done over the past couple of weeks, I say "well done."

Mick Purdy

Stan I'm so convinced of this I'd bet my left kidney on this

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:00 am

Mick Purdy
 
It's time to stop thinking about Frazier and Oswald and that damn silly nonesense of a drive into the TSBD and focus on William Randle and Linnie Mae. IMO
 
Don’t be tempted to under estimate the value of the crooked testimony of Linnie Mae Randle when she uttered the words to Ball, “at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly”
 
That is an enormous lie. And IMO proves beyond any doubt she helped frame Oswald. We know If her story about Lee crossing that Street were true, there would have never been a reason to “see who was fixing to come to her back door”
 
And she also would have known who it was for the simple fact, Wes was driving Lee to work and she knew that.
 
It is that simple.
 
If what she said under oath was true then it’s reprehensible and inconceivable Randle wasn’t cautioned at that precise moment by her examiner Mr. Ball.
 
That one sentence, as Ball would have known, should have placed her sighting of Lee crossing that Street with a package in jeopardy.
 
This one lie, allowed to freely pass by Ball, was instrumental in helping to create the Legend of a gun toting LHO.
 
It’s Randle’s ever so damaging testimony of peering through that kitchen door albeit only briefly, but long enough to see Oswald walk to the car, and place a package on either the floor or back seat of Wes’s car.
 
This coupled with Frazier’s lie which we know about thanks to Edward Shield’s HSCA interview about the TSBD parking lot 1 walk into the building which lends enormous weight to my contention IMO to the Fact Oswald did not drive with Frazier

The real issue now IMO is to work out who actually drove Oswald to work and why Frazier and Randle lied

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:01 am

Terry Martin
 
Normally, people lie to save their own skin.
 
As these people had gathered in the Viper's Nest so early in the stages of the cover-up it does not seem as though they planned a mere deflection of suspicion-coming-at-them because of a connection with LHO.
 
If the "Frazier running late" gambit was phony, meaning he and Lee got to work at different times that day, how and why did the connection get missed? Did Lee oversleep? Was he waiting out front for Frazier who never arrived?
 
Frazier could quite conceivably have gone in early to take the rifle in as has been suggested but someone might have seen him taking it in. That seems a bit of a stretch to me even if it would explain his need to arrive early.
 
With the lies seeming to begin with LMR, one gets the impression that her husband may have had more to do with the events than her brother. With their lie beginning to be constructed seemingly before Lee was even arrested (or an announcement of same, IIRC) it does seem to imply insider knowledge.
 
When was the first tale of the bag first mentioned? And why didn't they simply "remember" the bag being big enough to bring in the rifle? Yes, it might have got Frazier charged as an accomplice but it was only curtain rods, he claimed. Why then this elaborate charade about the bag being too short?
 
I am still missing something here but I agree that the focus should now got to LMR and her husband. And perhaps Frazier wonderful step-father than he loved so dearly.

Clearly, I am confused as heck about this but - as with the second floor non-encounter - I can dig it. This is fascinating stuff.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:03 am

Mick Purdy
 
Terry I believe your first line is spot on.
 
Linnie Mae and Frazier lied!
 
I don't really know why but I'm convinced they did. My conjecture is that Wes did do something that morning, such as take in an MC rifle to the TSBD as a throwdown and needed to cover his movements early in the morning.
 
I think it's safe to say if you subscribe to the theory I'm contending here, that Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle were involved in a gigantic fabrication of the mornings events, then those lies were surely perpetuated to hide things which they did, and were involved in, and that they did not want made public.
 
The evolving story of the diminishing dimensions of the sack by Randle IMO is yet another clue to that deceit.
 
Frazier's case is particularly interesting, because it is completely possible that as a 19 year old, he may have been coerced or even blackmailed, to do things which at the time he may not have had the ability to say no to, or even the maturity to fully comprehend.
 
Things which he may have regretted later and over time even became remorseful of.

Of course this is only conjecture on my part. The theory continues!

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:04 am

Mick Purdy

Remind me, where did Frazier go missing for about 5 hours. Are we really expected he was right by his abusive alcoholic step fathers bedside for all that time.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:06 am

Mick Purdy
 
This is one of the more intriguing pieces from Edward Shield’s interview with the HSCA regarding Frazier and his walk into the TSBD on the Friday morning.
 
SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building."
 
It is odd IMO that Givens should (a): be remotely interested in the whereabouts of Lee Oswald, and (b): Yell out to Wes from a floor above at the warehouse asking where his rider might be.
 
In my mind, it simply doesn’t fit.
 
Why would Givens holler out to Wes “where his rider is”?
 
I don’t believe I’m simply over thinking this.
 
Ask yourselves, do you really believe Givens had that much of an interest in Wes’s passenger, Lee Harvey Oswald, and that he would scream out from a floor above to Wes enquiring his whereabouts. And that according to Shields, Wes replied back to Givens with his answer. Which implies Wes hollered back to Givens so that he and I'm assuming anybody else in the vicinity would hear his response also.
 
For my mind it smacks of collusion, Givens was there in my opinion to assist Frazier for some reason. Possibly in case he came across workmates on the way into the building who could quite clearly observe Frazier without Oswald walking some fifty feet ahead of him.

The theory continues

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:15 am

Lee Farley
 
Juts been over to the NARA website to check out the LMR documents.  They have a folder that should contain her original typed testimony pages.  Most other WC testimony originals have pencil notations for changes.  You won't be surprised to hear that the following folder...
 
 

...is EMPTY.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:16 am

Colin Crow
 
Be wary of Givens. After the event he told other employees that he observed Oswald using the elevators a lot and not doing any work that Friday.. His cigarette story is totally bogus.

Why would Givens expect to see Oswald arrive with Frazier on a Friday anyway? Didn't Oswald usually get a lift to town on Monday?

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:19 am

Colin Crow

Lee, the LMR folder contains 59 pages, mainly a number of statements by her and pictures of the Paine and Randle houses but not her typed WC testimony. Is that what you were implying?

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:22 am

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

Lee, the LMR folder contains 59 pages, mainly a number of statements by her and pictures of the Paine and Randle houses but not her typed WC testimony. Is that what you were implying?

Lee Farley
 
Yes, Colin.  There are two specific folders held at NARA for Linnie Mae Randle.  One is assorted statements and photos as you have pointed out- this folder just has her name typed onto a sticker at the top of the sleeve. The second folder (the screenshot that I posted with 'Testimony' typed under her name on the top of the brown sleeve) is empty.
 

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:25 am

Lee Farley
 
My all time favourite segment of bullshit from the bullshitter known as Linnie Mae Randle:
 
 

How dare that motherfucker wave at the sister of the guy who allegedly gave him a lift to work.  Low-life, dirty, scumbag, son-of-bitch.  Waving!!!  Whatever next?  Saying hello?

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:28 am

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

LMR claimed to have not recognised who it was crossing the road on the way to the car. Yet she seems more interested in the package. I do not believe she saw Oswald or any package. Her story at the Paine's on Friday afternoon to the cops is contrived. I thought initially to clear her brother and make him as innocent as possible. Now it might have been to deflect attention from William Randle. Didnt Lee sleep in that morning as well? Perhaps he missed his ride with BWF after all.

Lee Farley

Colin,

Can you point me to where in the record does she claimed she did not recognise Lee Oswald as he crossed the road?  Did she say this during her testimony because I'm not seeing this in her 1963 statements.  Each one (unless I'm missing something) gives the impression she recognised him as he walked toward the house.

Cheers

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:29 am

Colin Crow
 
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.

if she didn't recognise him as he crossed the carport she didn't recognise him crossing the street previously.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:30 am

Stan Dane wrote:Lee Farley
 
Juts been over to the NARA website to check out the LMR documents.  They have a folder that should contain her original typed testimony pages.  Most other WC testimony originals have pencil notations for changes.  You won't be surprised to hear that the following folder...
 
 

...is EMPTY.

Mick Purdy

And you guys have been doing this for years.

Bingo!

Shit they were bad, rotten to the core.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:31 am

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow
 
Be wary of Givens. After the event he told other employees that he observed Oswald using the elevators a lot and not doing any work that Friday.. His cigarette story is totally bogus.

Why would Givens expect to see Oswald arrive with Frazier on a Friday anyway? Didn't Oswald usually get a lift to town on Monday?

Mick Purdy

I couldn't agree more, Givens in my mind was up to no good that day.

And IMO, started down by the warehouse on N Houston.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:32 am

Stan Dane wrote:Lee Farley
 
My all time favourite segment of bullshit from the bullshitter known as Linnie Mae Randle:
 
 

How dare that motherfucker wave at the sister of the guy who allegedly gave him a lift to work.  Low-life, dirty, scumbag, son-of-bitch.  Waving!!!  Whatever next?  Saying hello?

Mick Purdy

Lee,

you know that old sayin'
Never bullshit the bullshitter.
Now I have to admit I've not seen this nugget before now and I can't say why but wished I had.
It just has to be from a newspaper article?
It's written with all the fervour of a late night B grade horror flick.
But you're right about one thing, she's a lying, conniving little bitch who in my mind needs a thoroughly good working over.
This is priceless Lee, just about every line in it is bullshit

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:34 am

Stan Dane wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

LMR claimed to have not recognised who it was crossing the road on the way to the car. Yet she seems more interested in the package. I do not believe she saw Oswald or any package. Her story at the Paine's on Friday afternoon to the cops is contrived. I thought initially to clear her brother and make him as innocent as possible. Now it might have been to deflect attention from William Randle. Didnt Lee sleep in that morning as well? Perhaps he missed his ride with BWF after all.

Lee Farley

Colin,

Can you point me to where in the record does she claimed she did not recognise Lee Oswald as he crossed the road?  Did she say this during her testimony because I'm not seeing this in her 1963 statements.  Each one (unless I'm missing something) gives the impression she recognised him as he walked toward the house.

Cheers

Mick Purdy

Lee,

IMO It's not so much that Randle claimed she did not recognise Lee as he walked across Westbrook, not  in so many words, but allowed her obvious fabrication to be exposed for the record in the way of her having to invent a reason to go to the kitchen door to complete the lie to its conclusion.

Enter:

“at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly”

That is an enormous lie. And IMO proves beyond any doubt she helped frame Oswald. We know If her story about Lee crossing that Street were true, there would have never been a reason to “see who was fixing to come to her back door”

And she supposedly also should have known who it was for the simple fact, Wes was supposedly driving Lee to work and she supposedly knew that according to both their testimony and their reports.

IMHO It is that simple. If what she said under oath was true then it’s reprehensible and inconceivable Randle wasn’t cautioned at that precise moment by her examiner Mr. Ball. That one sentence, as Ball would have known, should have placed her sighting of Lee crossing that Street with a package in the trash can.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 9:36 am

Greg Parker

"We both know who is responsible." Mike Paine to Ruth over a tapped phone.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 5:36 pm

Greg Parker
 
And IMO, started down by the warehouse on N Houston. Yep. That is where he was based, and I too, believe that is where he went first every morning.
 
It's written with all the fervour of a late night B grade horror flick. This is true of other testimony anada statements as well. As stupid as it sounds, I really think some of these types of lines were scripted by someone who watched those types of movies and actually believed that is how people spoke or reacted in real life extreme situations.

IMO It's not so much that Randle claimed she did not recognise Lee as he walked across Westbrook, I may have missed it, but I did go through her testimony and I can't see where she was even asked whether she had seen him before. But a failure to recognise someone, has within it, the assumption that you could/should have recognised them, or at least, that you did know them/had met them. It is the failure to ask her that simple question that is telling.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?"

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