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Ed. Ledoux
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Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Empty Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 12:18 pm
Beyond stellar Bart!

Cheers, Ed
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on Tue 19 Sep 2017, 4:51 am
Thank you Ed, I think there is still more to come Smile
I have added better detailed close ups of the Houston Post newspaper with Lovelady being  quoted.
You can actually read it for a change.
Lemme post them here as well

Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Housto13



Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Housto14

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Ed. Ledoux
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on Tue 19 Sep 2017, 5:42 am
Cheers Bart!
Excellent article.
Billy is telling 'newspaper reporters' he never liked Lee since he laid eyes on him because Lee was always reading the 'newspaper.'
Billy was removed from their subscription prospectus.
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on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 6:51 pm
Indeed he was I'm a smartass &

Billy was describing the actual policeman running towards the RR yards and not towards the front steps, since he was busy going there himself with his foreman Bill Shelley.

Meanwhile thanks to Denis Morissette  for this article on Truly.
Press and Sun-Bulletin Binghamton, New York · Sun, Dec 8, 1963



Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Press_10

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on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:25 am
1960's researcher Arch Kimbraugh wrote this, he interviewed Truly and Truly says Oswald was wearing a white t-shirt on the day he left to testify in front of the W.C. The W.C. did not ask Truly what Oswald was wearing at least not in the official transcript. There is deleted testimony of Truly at the archives which is now being kept under lock and key, it is on a dictabelt recording.
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for the paperwork.

Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Img14110
Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Img14210

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on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:53 am
Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Truly_-_one_of_them

"one of them confronted this boy (Oswald)."
 
One of whom? One of the police? Were there others?

I know, I know. I'm thinking too much here.
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on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:57 am
No mate that is exactly what I wrote when I placed this article in my 2nd fl paper which will be updated for a third time.

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on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 4:33 am
Detailed drawings, thanks to Gary Murr, of the 2nd floor, the lunch room and the hallway.
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd-2nd-floor-drawings/

Note how tiny the so called 'vestibule' is,


Last edited by barto on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:35 pm
Just wanted to point everyone to a partial Lancer thread from 2007, where Greg and Sean Murphy and others are discussing the 2FLRE.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071008045818/http:/www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=64074&mesg_id=64074&page=&topic_page=2

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on Fri 29 Dec 2017, 8:46 pm

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on Mon 28 May 2018, 12:07 am
Greg posted this link to a video on FB where he had IDed Baker while Oswald is being pulled out of a room and is being escorted through the corridor.
Greg said this: @ 44:55 This is a capture from The Lost JFK Tapes. It is from film taken on Saturday night. The white helmet has underneath it, one Marrion Baker. If you watch the clip, there is no sign of recognition from either Oswald or Baker. That's because this is the only "encounter" they ever had.


What I can add is even more significant. If this is Baker then the footage is from the 23rd in the evening, as Oswald is pulled through the corridors wearing only his white t-shirt.


Let me up the ante, IF this is Baker....he saw Oswald and knew he was being railroaded the next day and couldn't face him!  


Greg having made a great find.


WATCH! Updated content with new edited video and slow motion sequence to follow.



I paste three screen shots in.

Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Baker_12
Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Baker_13
Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Baker_14

That is Baker in  the footage above, Way to go Greg!


Last edited by barto on Mon 28 May 2018, 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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on Mon 28 May 2018, 2:39 am
My working hypothesis sequence.

  • Shots are fired. At least one of them originate from the Dal-Tex building
  • Oswald is PM, standing momentarily in the corner of the entrance of the TSBD.
  • Baker parks his bike, makes his run toward the Dal-Tex building.
  • As people reenter the TSBD, Oswald is seen in the vestibule, by the small storeroom.
  • This is where ANY police officer/Truly encounter took place.
  • Baker enters the TSBD and begins his search of the building.
  • Baker never encounters Oswald.
  • Baker fills out his affidavit the evening of the assassination; he doesn't mention the second floor lunchroom, nor does he mention Oswald by name.
  • During his Warren Commission testimony, Baker is asked to look at his questioner, to make eye contact, because he cannot be heard very well.
  • When asked if he saw Oswald later, Baker tells the WC the he saw him from an office he was in while giving his affidavit.
  • After approximately ninety more question/comments from the WC, the discussion goes off the record.
  • When the discussion resumes, Baker is asked:

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was this later on that same day?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, it was.
Mr. BELIN - Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository Building on that day?
Mr. BAKER - He was the same man.   
 
Assertions:

  • Baker's affidavit was correct, his WC testimony was not.
  • Baker didn't immediately enter the TSBD.
  • Oswald was PM and encountered on the first floor vestibule area.
  • Baker doesn't make eye contact and mumbles during his WC testimony because he's troubled.
  • The WC goes off the record prior to asking Baker if the man he saw at the Police Station that night was Oswald because it's critically important to nail this down, point blank, because Baker's performance has been weak.
  • Baker never saw Oswald at the TSBD.
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on Mon 28 May 2018, 3:31 am
A killer find by the Lizard King!  king
With slow motion follow up added.
The encounter is coincidental, Baker just happened to walk past while Oswald was being brought out.
There has to be more......


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on Mon 28 May 2018, 4:10 am
And it is not J.W. Courson, who stood watch at 317.




Baker
Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Page 7 Marrio10


Last edited by barto on Mon 28 May 2018, 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total

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on Mon 28 May 2018, 9:34 am
Whoa that is something to behold, Baker making eye contact and looking down like that. 

Baker should know, that's the guy in whose stomach he had his gun. That's the guy he let get away. They got him though. He gave him the slip but his com padres tracked him down and bagged him for him. Saved his ass by golly. He just can't seem to look him in the eye though. Because he knows what he knows. Obviously best to keep his mouth shut, unless he wants to make a stink at his own dinner table, which is never a good idea.

What is wrong with this picture? Everything.

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on Mon 28 May 2018, 10:49 pm
Great find,Greg.
Ed. Ledoux
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on Fri 15 Feb 2019, 5:00 pm
My hypothesis begins with no shots from an empty window.

Whispering in the crowd by planted individuals leads to discussions about the empty window. False ideas are injected into the crowd
Subterfuge designed as memory.

A late arriving cop gets the drift.
His unexpected anxiousness to scale mount depository comes after a second hand account by Truly of what a construction worker believed he had seen. Top floor gunman perhaps.
Baker doesn't stop his ascent for snipers windows, no he has bigger birds to fry.
But the pigeon had flown the coop.
So he gives up on the TSBD and rides off into the windy Dallas afternoon.
Interesting as at 12:36 there begins radio reports about the TSBD as a possibility...followed by a 12:38 radio report of another 'witness',,, Euins tells his tale, perhaps borrowed second hand from a construction worker, and yet Baker rode away....tsk tsk good thing Baker runs fast or he would have had to stay and search the place again,.

HMMM am I missing something?

ITS NOT LEE THEY NEED OUT OF THE TSBD BY 12:33 ... ITS BAKER THEY NEED THE HECK OUT BEFORE 12:36
When it's become to hot at the TSBD for Baker to just be riding off without telling incoming cops he's already searched the roof top and lunchroom
:-)
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on Fri 15 Feb 2019, 11:12 pm
Ed, I like it. My take on Baker is that fundamentally he was a monkey wrench in the works. He was treated accordingly and they wore him down until he got along to get along. He could look at how things were going for Roger Craig, plus there were other things for him to think about: Oswald as a cop killer, guilty of something, guilty by decree of superiors, and there was his own retirement to consider. (not that I'm holding Oswald's guilt in the assassination or in Tippet's murder as true, but rather that Baker would have plenty of incentive to believe so).

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on Sat 16 Feb 2019, 2:22 am
Yes in a way Baker too was a patsy.
Ed. Ledoux
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on Sat 16 Feb 2019, 3:52 pm
Yes quite the conundrum for Mama son.

And as been asserted the other cops and likely his superiors reminded him he let a a murderer and soon to be cop killer go .... poor dumb cop.
Trapped by his own devices
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on Sat 23 Mar 2019, 9:02 pm
Update number 5 is out, been a year since I did one.

http://www.prayer-man.com/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter-v5-march-2019/

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on Sun 24 Mar 2019, 8:49 am
barto wrote:Update number 5 is out, been a year since I did one.

http://www.prayer-man.com/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter-v5-march-2019/
Thanks Barto, you're on fire!
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on Sun 24 Mar 2019, 8:36 pm
Great job,Barto.
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on Thu 28 Mar 2019, 3:46 am
Thanks Mick and Viny.

Meanwhile, thanks to Reuel Smith. In one of John Barbour's PDFs from his Garrison files. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-qB_Q7YJ73Km1YU0VOTPHeAE-aT0eo51/view?usp=sharing
Page 51 at the bottom.
In the Dan Smoot Report from Dec 2 1963

One of the police officers who searched inside the building was accompanied by R. S. Truly, a supervisor of the book depository firm.They encountered Lee Harvey Oswald, walking toward an entrance, to leave the building. The officer asked who he was. Mr. Truly said Oswald

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on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 10:29 pm
The Second Floor Lunch Room Fakery in a Nutshell.

·         The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.


·         Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.


·         Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., but others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly at different locations. Pages 24-25.


·         Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.


·         In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.


·         Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. This kills the timing of Baker and Truly which we know isn’t true. Baker made his dash 10-15 seconds after the final shot. Pages 33-39.


·         Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps.  Page 44.


·         Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3rd or 4th floor. Page 74.


·         In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22nd states they saw no one there” Page 46.


·         Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.


·         Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.


·         Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the sho0ting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.


·         Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.


·         Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22nd. Page 52.


·         Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.


·         Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5th floor. Pages 54 and 55.


·         Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.


·         Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.


·         While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4th floor. Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4th floor. Page 57.


·         Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.


·         Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.


·         The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.


·         The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.


·         During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.


·         The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.


·         Mrs. Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.


·         Geneva Hine was alone in the 2nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.


·         Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.


·         Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony,  he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.


·         The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B. throwing the roll call of the T.S.B.D. inhabitants Pages 112-113.


·         Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.


·         Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22nd and 23rd. Pages 113-121.


·         The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.
·         Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.


·         Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. Pages 136-146.


·         The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening.  Pages 147-159.




The paper can be viewed here:
[url=http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter V6 June 2019-LOW]http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Anatomy%20of%20the%20second%20floor%20lunch%20room%20encounter%20V6%20June%202019-LOW[/url]


Last edited by barto on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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