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Vinny
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 7:01 pm
Welcome Mick.
Terry W. Martin
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Fri 18 Oct 2019, 3:08 am
Vinny wrote:
Mick Purdy wrote:Does anyone here at the forum have a copy of Judy Bonner's " Investigation of a homicide" JFK? If so could you PM me many thanks.



Hi Mick

 The book is available for free online here.


https://app.box.com/s/8b408e6999f8799dfd0a/file/17732152808

Thanks, Vinny!

_________________
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Terry W. Martin
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Fri 18 Oct 2019, 3:11 am
BC_II wrote:Perhaps sadly buried in the nether realm, of all that interrogation Lee received, he probably told them he did not have that ID on him when he was arrested lol...It is when I read the amazing posts on this forum that I always realize that we have to start fresh using recently declassified docs and not assume everything that has been handed down to us (or repeated ad nauseum), is in fact true. Thanks guys for these amazing data chunks.

Exactly!

If all the researchers here combined their stuff, I think we could produce a new look at the case as it happened, step-by-step, and show the reality without all the WC BS heaped on.

I think it would be a real eye-opener for everyone.

Ah, but who's got that kind of time? Certainly not me!

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Steve Thomas
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Fri 18 Oct 2019, 8:53 pm
Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his.
Manning Clements. Appendix XI of Warren Report. Page 614.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=638&tab=page
“Oswald declined to explain his possession of a photograph of a Selective Service card in the name of “Alek James Hiddell”.


WC testimony of Manning Clements:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clements.htm


Mr. STERN. What did he say about that card?
Mr. CLEMENTS. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of his possession of it.


In his FBI Report concerning Oswald's second interview on the 23rd, James Bookhout wrote:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=647&tab=page

“With regard to Selective Service Card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.”


James Bookhout. Warren Report. Appendix XI. Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=647&tab=page



Mr. BOOKHOUT - One specific question was with regard to the selective service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to state the purpose of carrying same, and---or any use he made of same.




WC testimony of James Bookhout:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm


Mr. STERN - What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.


Thomas Kelley. Appendix XI of Warren Report. Page 627.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=651&tab=page
“At this time, Captain Fritz showed a Selective Service card that was taken out of his wallet which bore the name of “Alex Hidell. Oswald refused to discuss this after being asked for an explanation of it, both by Fritz and by James Bookhout, the FBI Agent.”


The interrogation on Sunday the 24th. Harry Holmes WC testimony:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm


'Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, where it showed A. J. Hidell."
"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only time that he flared up. “


What I am trying to figure out, is why Oswald didn't denounce the Hidell ID in as strong a terms as he denounced the photos of him with a rifle.
He didn't say, "The card's a fraud and I'll be able to prove it at a later time."

Supposedly, Oswald:

1) Admitted the card was in his possession;
2) Denied that the signature was his; and,
3) Refused to discuss it further

Is Oswald trying to tell us something?

If the card was supposed to be used for identification purposes, do we know of any case where it was used as a form of ID?
If not, then what was its purpose?

There is this WC testimony from Will Fritz:



Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?
Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes.
Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.
Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?
Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.


It's not the card that's the problem, it's the signature.



Steve Thomas
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Vinny
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Fri 18 Oct 2019, 8:54 pm
Terry W. Martin wrote:
Vinny wrote:
Mick Purdy wrote:Does anyone here at the forum have a copy of Judy Bonner's " Investigation of a homicide" JFK? If so could you PM me many thanks.



Hi Mick

 The book is available for free online here.


https://app.box.com/s/8b408e6999f8799dfd0a/file/17732152808

Thanks, Vinny!

Welcome Terry.
greg parker
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:29 am
Steve Thomas wrote:but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card
It is a curious statement.

Was he asked if was carrying the card, or did he just "admit" it without being asked?

If the former, was he asked the same question about everything pulled out of his wallet? If not, why not?

If the latter, did he admit to having each item pulled out of his wallet without being asked? If not, why not?

I don;t believe he took a pistol into the theater -- and yet according to the interrogation reports, he admitted doing so.

I don't believe Roy Truly saw no one as he entered the TSBD - and yet he claimed to see no one without being asked.

It is important to get these things on the record so there can be no question about it.

Oswald "admitted" carrying the gun that allegedly killed Tippit. We know because the cops said he said it. 

We know Oswald used the Hidell alias because the cops said he said he admitted carrying around a Hidell ID card, providing very strong evidence he, using the name Hidell, was the orderer of the alleged murder weapons.

We know Truly saw "no one" as he back inside the building because he volunteered it under oath without even being asked, so we can be rest assured that that "no one" included Lee Oswald - the same Lee Oswald seen by Campbell on the 1st floor per news published the next day.  In that story, he went straight back in - no detour as he later claimed, via the Grassy Knoll. Fortuitously, Campbell was not called to testify. It saved him needing to commit perjury to protect Truly.  
------------------
If Oswald never had this card, and the arresting officers did not report him having it as they surely would have if he did - then the card and the signature are both problems.

The only possible purpose of an obviously fake ID was to tie Oswald to the use of the name as an alias.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
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For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Steve Thomas
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:31 am
Greg,

You wrote, "We know Oswald used the Hidell alias because the cops said he said he admitted carrying around a Hidell ID card, providing very strong evidence he, using the name Hidell, was the orderer of the alleged murder weapons."


That was where I was headed. Why would he freely admit the card was his, but "deny" or "refuse to admit" that the signature was his?
Was he hiding something?
Was he trying to protect someone?

I have a theory that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.
It's just a theory mind you. I'll give you my reasons , or suspicions if you'd like.

Steve Thomas
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 10:00 am
Steve Thomas wrote:Greg,

You wrote, "We know Oswald used the Hidell alias because the cops said he said he admitted carrying around a Hidell ID card, providing very strong evidence he, using the name Hidell, was the orderer of the alleged murder weapons."


That was where I was headed. Why would he freely admit the card was his, but "deny" or "refuse to admit" that the signature was his?
Was he hiding something?
Was he trying to protect someone?

I have a theory that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.
It's just a theory mind you. I'll give you my reasons , or suspicions if you'd like.

Steve Thomas
Steve,

I have very similar suspicions, except I'll throw in a certain Quaker Charity Lady as the mover and shaker.

Where I may differ is that I'm not so certain that Lee knew about it. Though you may be right, and he may have.

Ruth Picked Marina up on the day the rifle was ordered.

Ruth picked Marina up on the day the rifle shipped in to Dallas.

It is highly likely that Marina was named as someone who could use the box as Lee worked a fair way from the PO Box. 

There is some doubt that Lee lived at Neely with Marina as he kept paying for electricity at Elsbeth throughout the period and that account was only closed on the day prior to him going to NO.

He apparently insisted he did not come across the name Hidell until he was in NO - if true, he could not have ordered the weapons.

Ruth dropped Marina off in NO on May 11 and stays until May 14.

May 26, Lee writes to the FPCC.

On May 29, the ordering of the Hands off Cuba handbills was by someone using the name Osborne who had the physique of a laborer.

The Wasp incident on June 16 occurs where someone is handing out those flyers. Two are confiscated by police. Post assassination, they are tested for fingerprints and two are found. Neither belong to Oswald.

Sept 17, Oswald allegedly obtains a Mex tourist card.

September 20, Ruth arrives to pick Marina up and she stays until Sept 23.

Sept 24 or 25, Lee disappears from NO and allegedly travels to Mexico City.

The evidence of his travels and stay down there is terrible. One quick example: A bus witness claimed that Oswald ate a large Mexican meal at every single stop along the way.

That could not have been Oswald. 

Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is all.
Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.


One reason he did not like to eat - and especially not spicy food was he suffered from Ascariasis - an intestinal infection caused by roundworm. Among his possessions was... medication for this condition - a side-effect of which was hair loss.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110342&relPageId=22&search=Ascariasis

Even if Lee liked spicy food, he would have been advised to avoid it.

Ascaris worms have the ability to probe and force their way into various ectopic locations. Probably they are prone to try to escape unfavorable conditions. Thus, various abnormal conditions such as fever, diseases, surgical operation, drugs, anesthesia, traumatic injuries, spicy foods, fasting, etc., 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110342&relPageId=22&search=Ascariasis

That is all the evidence anyone should need that Lee never went to MC.

But I digress -- Ruth turns up and the rifle is ordered.

Ruth turns up and the rifle is collected

Ruth turns up and the Hands off Cuba flyers are ordered and the FPCC games begin

Ruth turns up followed by Lee disappearing with a fake trail leading to Mexico City.

---------------

If you have additional suspicions on Marina - yes, I would be grateful for anything else.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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greg parker
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty ascariasis

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:24 am
Sept 24 or 25, Lee disappears from NO and allegedly travels to Mexico City.

The evidence of his travels and stay down there is terrible. One quick example: A bus witness claimed that Oswald ate a large Mexican meal at every single stop along the way.

That could not have been Oswald. 

Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is all.
Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.


One reason he did not like to eat - and especially not spicy food was he suffered from Ascariasis - an intestinal infection caused by roundworm. Among his possessions was... medication for this condition - a side-effect of which was hair loss.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110342&relPageId=22&search=Ascariasis

Even if Lee liked spicy food, he would have been advised to avoid it.

Ascaris worms have the ability to probe and force their way into various ectopic locations. Probably they are prone to try to escape unfavorable conditions. Thus, various abnormal conditions such as fever, diseases, surgical operation, drugs, anesthesia, traumatic injuries, spicy foods, fasting, etc., 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110342&relPageId=22&search=Ascariasis

That is all the evidence anyone should need that Lee never went to MC.

But I digress -- Ruth turns up and the rifle is ordered.

Ruth turns up and the rifle is collected

Ruth turns up and the Hands off Cuba flyers are ordered and the FPCC games begin

Ruth turns up followed by Lee disappearing with a fake trail leading to Mexico City.

---------------


Without wanting to derail my own thread...

The medication he took for asceriosis in the US was different to the one he took in the Soviet Union (though it may have been the same or similar, just a different brand name?)

IN any case, what he took in the US was Squibbs Pentids 400  
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59644&relPageId=222 

Pendids is a penicillin - which is a class of antibiotic.

Antibiotics can cause hair thinning.
https://hair.lovetoknow.com/hair-loss/can-antibiotics-make-your-hair-thin

In short, his hair loss had nothing to do with a second Oswald being swapped for the original by the CIA, KGB, the CWA (Country Women's Association) or the Philatelist Society. 

Seems he had been taking these type of meds ever since his stay in a Soviet Hospital. 

But I am sure someone has a convoluted, conspiratorial, idiotic and just plain dumb explanation as to why this is not correct.

I'm all for giving people easy outs - but it is not warranted for snake oil salesmen. They are the exception to the rule.

I want to see those oily bastards squirming more than round worms in Oswald digestive tract after his 15th straight plate of chili con carne.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
Stan Dane
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:50 pm
"Ruth turns up..."
greg parker
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:55 pm
Stan Dane wrote:"Ruth turns up..."
Good book chapter title  Go for it!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
Mick Purdy
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Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 Empty Re: Alleged Oswald Aliases

on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:47 pm
So did Michael.  Cool
greg parker
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on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 5:33 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:So did Michael.  Cool
Some more cowinky-dinks

February 22, 1963: The Oswalds attend a dinner party at the home of Everett Glover, where they meet Ruth Paine.

March 2, 1963: Marina moves to 214 West Neely Street.

March 9-10, 1963: LHO allegedly takes photographs of the home of General Edwin Walker 
---------------------------
April 2, 1963: The Oswalds attend a dinner party at the home of Ruth and Michael Paine, where General Walker is mentioned by Michael due to Walker leading the singing at some citizenship ceremony he had a attended for a fellow Bircher. A discussion on Walker ensued.

April 6, 1963: LHO's last day at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall
 
April 10, 1963: LHO allegedly fires a single shot at Walker
------------------------------

The Oswald's had been in the US since Jun 13, 1962. And nothing. Interviewed by FBI (as you would expect) by FBI, June 26.Other than that, he is attempting to get work, get settled, get his manuscript published and pay back his State Dept debt. There is zero evidence he received communist papers or magazines during this period. The one episode of note is the Thanksgiving Reunion sans mama which looks to me very much like a debrief for his intel connected older brother.

There is nothing else happening between his date of return and meeting DeM in September. 

A matter of weeks after meeting DeM, he gets a job with a company dealing with sensitive classified material. Although he allegedly had no access to that himself, it defies logic that he could get his foot in the door. He also opens the first of his PO Boxes. They also make the first of their separations.

Then he meets Ruth and the weird games and coincidences start to snowball.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
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Vinny
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on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:26 pm
Ruth has a lot of explaining to do.
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Steve Thomas
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on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:35 pm
Greg,

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to quote someone in this forum, but you wrote, "If you have additional suspicions on Marina - yes, I would be grateful for anything else."
(I'm sorry about some of these font sizes. It's got something to do with the copy and paste function of my word processing program, and I can't figure out how to override them).



  1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his.
  2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.
  3. Marina said on at least four occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).
  4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.
  5. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession appearing after they have been seized and searched by the Dallas Police




  1. Oswald either denied, or declined to admit that the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card was his.
  2. Marina's statements that she signed several things with the name, “Hidell” and that not all of them were pamphlets.

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald June 11, 1964.
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume V pp. 401-402
https://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol5/page401.php


Mr. Dulles. Did you ever sign any more such cards with the name "Hidell"? Mrs. Oswald. Only this one. Mr. Dulles. And you never signed the name "Hidell" on any other paper at any time? Mrs. Oswald. Only once.
Mr. Dulles. Did you ever sign the name Hidell at any subsequent time to any document? Mr. Mckenzie. If you recall signing it. Do you recall signing his name to any other document? Mrs. Oswald. I only remember this one occasion.
Mr. Dulles. Did you make some practice runs of writing this name before you actually put it on the card? Mrs. Oswald. Yes; because it was difficult for me to write English properly. Mr. Dulles. So you mean you wrote it several times on another sheet of paper and then put it on this card? Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Representative Ford. Was there anybody else present at the time of this incident? Mrs. Oswald. No; only Lee. Representative Ford. Did he have you sign only one card? Mrs. Oswald. This was the only time when I--when Lee asked me to do this and I did it. I might have signed two or--- cards and not just one but there weren't a great many. Representative Ford. Did the other cards have someone else's name besides Lee Harvey Oswald on it? Mrs. Oswald. No; only Lee Oswald. Representative Ford. But you think you might have signed more than one such card? Mrs. Oswald. Maybe two, three. This is just 1 day when I was signing this. It just happened on one occasion.


Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm


Q: Did you sign anything for him down here?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did you sign?
A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was.
Q: Would you recall --
A: The name Hidell.
Q: Hidell?
A: Yes.
Q: You signed the name, Hidell?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what was your purpose of doing that?
A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it.
Q: What do you mean, forced you?
A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say?
Q: Physical threats?
A: Physical threats, yes, sir.



CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page


is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.


Alleged Oswald Aliases - Page 2 B12G2z0BKyUAAAAASUVORK5CYII=

These handwriting examples can be found in Volume XVII of the Hearings and Exhibits here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134

They were introduced during Ruth Paine's WC testimony in Volume II.

From Marina's HSCA Deposition:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm


Q. Did he ask you to put your name on any of the leaflets ?
A. Well, he asked me to put my name on something but I didn't think it was those leaflets.

Q. What name did they have on the pamphlets? Did Lee have his name on the pamphlets?
A. I do not recall that the pamphlets have any name on them. I re- member that Lee used to sign his name different than his real name on some things but which things they were I do not recall right now.
3) Marina's statements about living on Neely St. in January, 1963
I have found 4 instances of Marina Oswald either testifying on insinuating that the Oswalds were living on Neely St. in January, 1963.



(1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm


Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.


Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth)
Mrs. OSWALD. No.


Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.


___________________________________________


Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year.
I don't remember exactly.


Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.


For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.


(2) Two weeks later, Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address in the beginning of January, 1963 and that he had been cleaning the rifle that same day.
CD 735 page 441
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=450&tab=page
At the bottom of CD 735, there is the handwritten notation “CE 1156”.
This interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Anatole Buguslav and Wallace Heitman.


(CE 1156 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII p. 197).
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227&tab=page
includes this information in an interview the FBI conducted of Marina on January 29 1964 and dated February 1, 1964.
This January 29th interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Richard Wiehl and Wallace Heitman.
But
On February 18, 1964 the FBI agents went back to Marina at the offices of her attorney, and said, “Uh, we’ve got a problem. You told us yesterday that you saw Lee cleaning his rifle in January, but he didn’t buy it until March”.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815


On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken on February 17th about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had really taken place in March, 1963.
That suggests three possibilities:
a) she was genuinely mistaken about the date; or,
b) the FBI caught her in a lie and confronted her; or,
c) that since her statement of the 17th was already part of the official record, the FBI went back to her and helped her coordinate her story to set the record straight.




(3) Marina told the WC that she first met Ruth Paine at a party in January, but the party didn’t take place until February 22, 1963

[list=2]
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine? Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January. Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?[/list]
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.


Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.


(4) Here is the translation of CE993, Marina's Narrative of life with Lee:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page


I started reading this narrative, and was immediately struck by how similar it is in linguistic style to Oswald's Daily Diary. Read his entry for October 21st, when he attempts "suicide" to the sound of violins playing. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf



One other thing struck me. On pp. 626-627, she writes of moving to Neely St. after New Years, and then writes of meeting Ruth Paine.
Officially, she met Ruth on February 22nd, prior to her Neely St. move.
Is Marina once again putting herself on Neely St. in January, when they didn't actually move there until March?




Mr. JENNER - Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER - I will get to that in a moment.


Mr. JENNER - You met Marina for the first time when.
Mrs. PAINE - I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER - Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE - I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I Judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.


Mrs. PAINE - It was Friday evening.
Mr. JENNER - Friday evening?
Mrs. PAINE - The 22d was Friday


In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm


Marina's HSCA testimony
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm


When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.
Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.
Mr. McDONALD. When you refer to the "closet," what apartment are you referring to? At what apartment are we talking about?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall any apartment, but maybe one in Dallas.
Mr. McDONALD. The one on Neely Street?
Mrs. PORTER. Neely Street; yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964


Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing various writings in English and in Russian
Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.
Further, I don't know what he had written in there.
Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to.
Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I don't know what this means.
Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now I see it.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105.


Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas"
And it is marked, "One quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95." and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.


Exhibit 135 is an order form for the pistol, not the rifle.


CE 773 was the Klein's Order Form for the Rifle
CE 788 was the Postal Money Order for the Rifle


She is not shown either the Hidell Selective Service card or the rifle order form.


So, let me see if I've got this straight.
Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased.
She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March.
It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside.
She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back.
Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime?
She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up?
When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it.
I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle, several times.


Makes you wonder.



    4) The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.



HSCA VOLUME VIII HANDWRITING ANALYSIS OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD p. 223
March, 1979


http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/hscahand.htm
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=227&tab=page


The HSCA submitted 63 samples from 50 documents items to handwriting experts JOSEPH P. MC NALLY and DAVID J. PURTELL and CHARLES C. SCOTT





What was not done was to compare the signatures on the Hidell Selective Service card with the signature on the rifle's postal money order.




Steve Thomas
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on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:39 pm
Thanks Steve. Some good points and a lot to consider.

To quote text: to quote the whole precious post, just hit the quote icon in the editor *the one without the plus sign).

To quote only part of the text, copy and paste the text you want to quote into the reply box, highlight it and ten hit the quote icon.

And yesm copying and pasting from can be a problem depending on where its copied from.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Steve Thomas
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on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:49 pm
greg parker wrote:Thanks Steve. Some good points and a lot to consider.

To quote text: to quote the whole precious post, just hit the quote icon in the editor *the one without the plus sign).

To quote only part of the text, copy and paste the text you want to quote into the reply box, highlight it and ten hit the quote icon.

Greg,

Okay. I think I've got it - thanks.

Steve

PS: "precious text"?
*grin*
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on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:53 am

PS: "precious text"?
*grin*

My typos are getting worse and/or funnier as I get older.

January makes better sense to me for the initial meeting with Ruth. It means we can add the pistol that caused the confusion in Marina's testimony to the list. We can also note all the weasel words with which Ruth surrounded her February date as the initial meeting. "I judge it to be..." etc etc.

I want to check the records to see if they included January in the meter reader's assessments of occupancy for Neely.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:43 am
Dallas Power and Light advised that the apartment was occupied by a CP Cornett until January 16. Policy was not to cut the power, so it was left on.

The next time the meter was read was Feb 19. The meter reader reported the apartment was vacant at that time. 

It was read again on March 20 and although some electricity had been used (36 kilowatt hours), it was again reported as empty. The next reading was April 19 when 66 kilowatt hours had been used and it was finally reported as occupied. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408&relPageId=115

It should have been noted as occupied on March 20. Allegedly, the FBI identified Oswald as living there by find a nameplate on the letter box. Since power and light new the occupant up until Jan 16 was a Mr Cornett, surely the nameplate showing Oswald was a clue someone else had moved in? 

That said... I don't believe the nameplate story. Where was it made? Why would the secretive Oswald even have it? What happened to it?

Looking at his billing for Elsbeth... the account was not closed until the day prior to his leaving for NO.

However, the last time he paid it was for the period ending February 19, and was paid on March 1. Supposedly they moved to Neely the next day. 

But I am thinking that Cornett moves out of Neely on January 16 and somehow it is learned that the place is now vacant. They also know that Dallas Power and Light doesn't switch electricity off... so Marina and June move in to Neely and Oswald stays at Elsbeth. This is supported by the meter readings of both.

Neely starts to go up and Elsbeth goes down - but is still being used up until Oswald leaves for NO when he cuts it off.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0118b.htm


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : edited after re-reading some of the docs)

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:22 am
However, the last time he paid it was for the period ending February 19, and was paid on March 1. Supposedly they moved to Neely the next day. 

Since Marina was no help in pinpointing the moving date, I would not be surprised if they have looked at the Elsbeth St billing, saw that the bill was last paid on March 1 and decided that from that alone that they moved the next day. They have not taken into account that the Elsbeth account was still open even if only using about two thirds of what it had been using up until then - or say, the difference between two adults and a baby and one adult.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Ed. Ledoux
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on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:41 pm
Lee had a marine corp rain coat to hide the rifle while on the bus.... that or he just traveled with rifles by bus when it rains.
🙃

Mrs. PAINE - I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I Judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar. 


Mrs. PAINE - It was Friday evening. 
Mr. JENNER - Friday evening? 
Mrs. PAINE - The 22d was Friday 

She meets Lee on Feb 22nd a Friday...
Sends Lee down the river Nov 22nd a Friday.
I wouldn't call either a Good Friday.

Cheers, Ed
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on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:09 pm
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