Bill Shelley

A poster named Albert Doyle stated, on another forum, that he read a quote from Buell Wesley Frazier on this forum, stating Bill Shelley was slightly taller than Billy Lovelady. Is this true and, if true, could someone please direct me to this quote?

Robbert wrote:A poster named Albert Doyle stated, on another forum, that he read a quote from Buell Wesley Frazier on this forum, stating Bill Shelley was slightly taller than Billy Lovelady. Is this true and, if true, could someone please direct me to this quote?

Albert Doyle? Sounds vaguely familiar. Does he emit constant squeals of delight at the sound of goose-stepping up the hallowed Deep Foo halls?

Here you go Robbert. This is from Gary Mack:

"While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. 
 
"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.

Second hand information from Gary Mack? Is that reliable? 

I might believe it if Gary had a taped interview or had Frazier on film sating this. Gary and the Museum seemed to be a source of disinformation more than anything else.

Robbert wrote:Second hand information from Gary Mack? Is that reliable? 

I might believe it if Gary had a taped interview or had Frazier on film sating this. Gary and the Museum seemed to be a source of disinformation more than anything else

A bit of a hiding to nothing to change what Frazier said when Frazier is a lot more open to approaches from anyone these days. Big risk someone would contact him to verify.

Apart from that, in his own way Gary was usually fairly honest. Usually he would just say nothing if he could not debunk something. He clearly thought this would debunk Sean because he went on to claim that PM must be Shelley. As I recall, Sean soon stomped that little fire out and true to form, Mack shut up.

Robbert:
 
The quote from Gary Mack was originally posted by Sean Murphy on September 20, 2013 in the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (page 52) at The Education Forum. Remember now? On numerous occasions since then we have referenced that quote here. It's even in my book, Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, page 220.
 
And Greg is right: Sean Murphy quickly shot down Gary Mack's ludicrous assertion that Prayer Man was Bill Shelley. That goes to show that even saints are not perfect.
 
A bigger question I have, Robbert, is why are you even concerned about what Doyle says?
 
Any normal person who can think critically can observe that this individual is, to put it nicely, unbalanced, an order of fries short of a Happy Meal. Hell, he claims to be a "respected world expert" on Jimi Hendrix's death. He publishes videos of himself riding across the Sanibel Causeway with his selfie stick and singing along to Jefferson Airplane while going to L.A. via Omaha. A member of Narcissists Anonymous, he's like Ozymandias, but his kingdom was never more than a figment of his imagination.

I wouldn't worry about what psychologically damaged people like this specimen have to say. Because they say everything and nothing.

Stan Dane wrote:Robbert:
 
The quote from Gary Mack was originally posted by Sean Murphy on September 20, 2013 in the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (page 52) at The Education Forum. Remember now? On numerous occasions since then we have referenced that quote here. It's even in my book, Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, page 220.
 
And Greg is right: Sean Murphy quickly shot down Gary Mack's ludicrous assertion that Prayer Man was Bill Shelley. That goes to show that even saints are not perfect.
 
A bigger question I have, Robbert, is why are you even concerned about what Doyle says?
 
Any normal person who can think critically can observe that this individual is, to put it nicely, unbalanced, an order of fries short of a Happy Meal. Hell, he claims to be a "respected world expert" on Jimi Hendrix's death. He publishes videos of himself riding across the Sanibel Causeway with his selfie stick and singing along to Jefferson Airplane while going to L.A. via Omaha. A member of Narcissists Anonymous, he's like Ozymandias, but his kingdom was never more than a figment of his imagination.

I wouldn't worry about what psychologically damaged people like this specimen have to say. Because they say everything and nothing.

Stan don't forget to leave out the ditty that while crooning along with Marty and Grace and working himself into a lather, deposits of white slimy spittle gathers at the corners of his "best evidence on the internet" spewing lips rendering the inside of his windshield a frosty blindfold.

As part of my research, I have put a great deal of time and effort into determining how tall Bill Shelley was in 1963. No long ago, I sent off two letters; one to a William Boyd Shelley of Dallas, Texas who is supposedly the son of the late William Hoyt Shelley and one to an Austin, Texas journalist who interviewed Bill Shelley in the early 1970's. The son never replied but I received a reply from the journalist the other day. 

Here is the contents of his letter:

"Dear Mr. *********:

Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.


For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the old Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.


Hope this information sheds a little light for you. Very best of luck.


Sincerely
**** *****
Austin, Texas"

Steve Logan wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Robbert:
 
The quote from Gary Mack was originally posted by Sean Murphy on September 20, 2013 in the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (page 52) at The Education Forum. Remember now? On numerous occasions since then we have referenced that quote here. It's even in my book, Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, page 220.
 
And Greg is right: Sean Murphy quickly shot down Gary Mack's ludicrous assertion that Prayer Man was Bill Shelley. That goes to show that even saints are not perfect.
 
A bigger question I have, Robbert, is why are you even concerned about what Doyle says?
 
Any normal person who can think critically can observe that this individual is, to put it nicely, unbalanced, an order of fries short of a Happy Meal. Hell, he claims to be a "respected world expert" on Jimi Hendrix's death. He publishes videos of himself riding across the Sanibel Causeway with his selfie stick and singing along to Jefferson Airplane while going to L.A. via Omaha. A member of Narcissists Anonymous, he's like Ozymandias, but his kingdom was never more than a figment of his imagination.

I wouldn't worry about what psychologically damaged people like this specimen have to say. Because they say everything and nothing.

Stan don't forget to leave out the ditty that while crooning along with Marty and Grace and working himself into a lather, deposits of white slimy spittle gathers at the corners of his "best evidence on the internet" spewing lips rendering the inside of his windshield a frosty blindfold.

Steve, I hope you wont let this go to your head.............you got a mention in the latest entry of the Historic Diary of Brian Doyle.

Well done

Robbert wrote:As part of my research, I have put a great deal of time and effort into determining how tall Bill Shelley was in 1963. No long ago, I sent off two letters; one to a William Boyd Shelley of Dallas, Texas who is supposedly the son of the late William Hoyt Shelley and one to an Austin, Texas journalist who interviewed Bill Shelley in the early 1970's. The son never replied but I received a reply from the journalist the other day. 

Here is the contents of his letter:

"Dear Mr. *********:

Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.


For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the old Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.


Hope this information sheds a little light for you. Very best of luck.


Sincerely
**** *****
Austin, Texas"

Bob:

You may never be able to precisely resolve the question of Shelley's height in 1963, so you'll probably just have to qualitatively assess how tall he was. When I look at pictures of Shelley, such as this one, he looks short to me. Certainly less than my height of 6 ft. I'd put him in the range of 5'7" to 5'8". What do you think?

Robbert wrote:As part of my research, I have put a great deal of time and effort into determining how tall Bill Shelley was in 1963. No long ago, I sent off two letters; one to a William Boyd Shelley of Dallas, Texas who is supposedly the son of the late William Hoyt Shelley and one to an Austin, Texas journalist who interviewed Bill Shelley in the early 1970's. The son never replied but I received a reply from the journalist the other day. 

Here is the contents of his letter:

"Dear Mr. *********:

Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.


For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the old Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.


Hope this information sheds a little light for you. Very best of luck.


Sincerely
**** *****
Austin, Texas"

I don't think this is necessarily at odds with what Frazier is said to have said. This person is estimating 5; 5" or 5 6" so maybe it was a little bit more. Say 5' 6  1/2" - add on the lost 2 inches and he is slightly taller than Lovelady. Guestimating height from memory is not an exact science!

"I don't think this is necessarily at odds with what Frazier is said to have said. This person is estimating 5; 5" or 5 6" so maybe it was a little bit more. Say 5' 6  1/2" - add on the lost 2 inches and he is slightly taller than Lovelady. Guestimating height from memory is not an exact science!"


This is true. Of course, it works both directions, too. He could also have been 5' 4.5", and his loss of two inches in height could have been an exaggeration, meaning his original height was equal to or under 5'7". 


I'm not sure if all of you are aware of the reason for my interest in Bill Shelley's height. A few years ago, a researcher by the name of Gerda Dunckel posted a gif she had made from the Darnell film. This gif showed two men walking down the Elm St. extension at the same time Officer Marrion Baker is seen running toward the TSBD steps. With great fanfare, it was announced these two men were Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, despite the fact they were not exactly walking together and "Lovelady" catches up to and passes "Shelley" without even a glance of recognition.


From the FBI report on him, we know Lovelady was 5'8" at the time of the assassination. Careful examination of the Dunckel gif shows "Shelley" to be distinctly taller than "Lovelady", making "Shelley" at least 5'9" tall. I thereby set out to prove or disprove the Dunckel gif by establishing Shelley's height in 1963.


The best evidence I have found was provided by an ROKC researcher. It is a photo of Lieutenant Bill Shelley in his senior year in high school. He is standing beside another ROTC officer who is clearly a head taller than Lt. Shelley. Unless this other officer was a giant at least 6'8" in height, this would tend to suggest Shelley was well under 5'8" at the time.


For reasons I do not wish to share at the moment, I am very suspicious of the information I received from the journalist, although I believe him to be sincere. It seems just a bit too convenient that Shelley's missing height just happened to be precisely enough to make him the same height as Lovelady.

robbert wrote:This is true. Of course, it works both directions, too. He could also have been 5' 4.5", and his loss of two inches in height could have been an exaggeration, meaning his original height was equal to or under 5'7". 

Of course it works both ways. Guestimating height from memory is one thing. But recalling if one person was taller than another is a different thing altogether. To get around that, your only option is to call Mack a disinfo. I simply don't believe that is the case. He debunked CT claims - that is not necessarily the same as being disinfo. The way to shut him up was exactly as I said - hit back with facts that he could not debunk and he would go quiet.

Speaking for myself only, I'm on the fence on all attempts to identify Shelley so far, let alone what his height was, though I see no reason to disbelieve what Mack claimed Frazier said by way of description. Frazier is no longer in hiding. He can be found. Why don't you contact him yourself?


To me, Shelley and Lovelady need to be treated the same way as anyone else - their first statements should be regarded as the most reliable.

Moved from the Did frazier indirectly indentify thread:











And while on Frazier's description of Shelley, how does it affect the putative ID of Shelley in PD photos? Particularly in light of what Frazier claimed Shelley usually wore...

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward 
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-----------------------------
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-----------------------------
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 Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

 by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 11:47 pm

Would Shelley likely keep a tie and jacket in his office or car as a manager, yes.
Managers can be called into meetings at any time and are usually prepared for this eventuality. The suit n tie man is Joe Molina. Shelley working the warehouse would more likely to wear a dress shirt, long or short sleeved. 
Imo.
Buell saying sports shirt is a dodge. Square peg, round hole.
He is being too accommodating to what the image shows rather than his own recollection of that day, what his bosd was wearing "that day" and on "those steps"
Hmm

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 Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

 by Vinny Yesterday at 3:55 pm

Frazier was supposed to have his book out by this time.Anybody here have any news or updates about it?

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 Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

 by Mick Purdy Today at 9:39 pm

Would Shelley likely keep a tie and jacket in his office or car as a manager, yes.



Absolutely as any sort of manager would, especially back in '63.

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 Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

 by Robin Unger Today at 10:54 pm

Gary Mack quote:

"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.

Interesting comment from Frazier regarding Shelley's usual work clothes.
"slacks and sport shirt"

As has been stated, this doesn't match the man in the suit and tie usually identified as Shelley ?

thanks for posting the information.


In my James Richards gallery there is a photo of Truly and Shelley showing their dogs at a dog show.
i will post the link once the forum software approves it.

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 Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

 by greg parker Today at 11:05 pm

Robin Unger wrote:Gary Mack quote:

"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.

Interesting comment from Frazier regarding Shelley's usual work clothes.
"slacks and sport shirt"

As has been stated, this doesn't match the man in the suit and tie usually identified as Shelley ?

thanks for posting the information.


In my James Richards gallery there is a photo of Truly and Shelley showing their dogs at a dog show.
i will post the link once the forum software approves it.

Thank you Robin. I do recall the photo posted by James now you mention it.

I'd have to agree with the later comments regarding the clothing - it would be usual for someone in management to keep a jacket and tie on hand at work, even if you did not normally wear it.  It may also be the case that he did normally wear a suit but was wearing more casual gear during the laying of the flooring.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward 
            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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If you wish to contact Frazier directly you can find his phone number in the contact details thread.

steely dan wrote:

Steve Logan wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Robbert:
 
The quote from Gary Mack was originally posted by Sean Murphy on September 20, 2013 in the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (page 52) at The Education Forum. Remember now? On numerous occasions since then we have referenced that quote here. It's even in my book, Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, page 220.
 
And Greg is right: Sean Murphy quickly shot down Gary Mack's ludicrous assertion that Prayer Man was Bill Shelley. That goes to show that even saints are not perfect.
 
A bigger question I have, Robbert, is why are you even concerned about what Doyle says?
 
Any normal person who can think critically can observe that this individual is, to put it nicely, unbalanced, an order of fries short of a Happy Meal. Hell, he claims to be a "respected world expert" on Jimi Hendrix's death. He publishes videos of himself riding across the Sanibel Causeway with his selfie stick and singing along to Jefferson Airplane while going to L.A. via Omaha. A member of Narcissists Anonymous, he's like Ozymandias, but his kingdom was never more than a figment of his imagination.

I wouldn't worry about what psychologically damaged people like this specimen have to say. Because they say everything and nothing.

Stan don't forget to leave out the ditty that while crooning along with Marty and Grace and working himself into a lather, deposits of white slimy spittle gathers at the corners of his "best evidence on the internet" spewing lips rendering the inside of his windshield a frosty blindfold.

Steve, I hope you wont let this go to your head.............you got a mention in the latest entry of the Historic Diary of Brian Doyle.

Well done

Yes, I saw the dickhead calling me a Lone Nutter.......... ........... I bet he'd love to get his hands on my Hendrix memorabilia. Napoleon Hank Anderson was a friend of mine. He was the Bass player in Curtis Knight and The Squires. I got all kinds of Jimi stuff .

Robbert. You arent Bumfuck Bob Prudhomme by any chance? Just asking so I can avoid you.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:Robbert. You arent Bumfuck Bob Prudhomme by any chance? Just asking so I can avoid you.

Grow the f*ck up.

Robbert wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:Robbert. You arent Bumfuck Bob Prudhomme by any chance? Just asking so I can avoid you.

Grow the f*ck up.

Robbert:

I think your sense of timing is off. The comment you are replying to here is almost a year old. No need to stir anything up.

Thank you.

Sorry, I just read it.

It has just occurred to me that Shelley is having coffee in the vestibule of the TSBD, note the bloke in the background leaning on the railing.

barto wrote:

It has just occurred to me that Shelley is having coffee in the vestibule of the TSBD, note the bloke in the background leaning on the railing.

Huh. Sure enough. Looks like Mum's having a cigar while at it (open image in a new tab). Apparently Lee wasn't the only one to enjoy the vestibule ambiance for purposes of rest and relaxation.

That observation is brilliant Bart.
Vestibule served a lot of masters that day.
Yes the guy is getting coffee an cigar with pencil in mouth. Probably DPD detective taking a break from roll calls and letting Lee "escape"
Cheers, Ed

Shelley's HSCA, thanks to Malcolm Blunt

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt. Scan by me.77