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question for 9K116

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question for 9K116

Post by greg parker on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:06 pm

I was wondering if you could tell us what is written on the back of the photo designated 133A seen here? http://www.jfklancer.com/Rifle.html

There has been some dispute about the correct translation in the past, and it may be important.

Thanks.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: question for 9K116

Post by 9K116 on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 3:45 am

I believe it was translated correctly in materials I have seen earlier when I studied info available.

In English it means `Hunter of fascists - ha ha ha!!!`. I guess there is no sign of conspiracy here, if we do not count this sentence kind of childish.

If you mean small writing on the left upper edge of that picture, I'm afraid I can't read it.

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Re: question for 9K116

Post by greg parker on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 7:29 am

9K116 wrote:I believe it was translated correctly in materials I have seen earlier when I studied info available.

In English it means `Hunter of fascists - ha ha ha!!!`. I guess there is no sign of conspiracy here, if we do not count this sentence kind of childish.

If you mean small writing on the left upper edge of that picture, I'm afraid I can't read it.

Thanks for that.

From Marina's testimony.

Mr. SAWYER ... Referring now to the writing on the reverse side of the
picture that is up there on the board, what do those top two lines say
in Russian? Can you tell me?
Mrs. PORTER - You want me to translate it to English?
Mr. SAWYER - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mr. SAWYER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, "Ha, ha, ha," You know.
Mr. SAWYER - But the writing before the "Ha, ha, ha" is "Hunter for
the fascists" is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And then the writing down in the lower right "To my
friend George. From Lee Oswald" did I understand whether or not you
could identify that as Lee's writing?

Later, she was led into changing the translation to "Hunter of Fascists". There IS a difference in meaning.

Also, she could not positively ID it as her own writing, nor could she say for sure, the English writing was in Lee's hand.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3450
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Re: question for 9K116

Post by 9K116 on Thu 28 Jul 2011, 2:28 am

I understand there is difference in meanings of `hunter of the fascists` and `hunter for the fascists`, but I am not sure I understand them properly. I propose to define both them more detailed, ok?

1. As I understand, hunter of the fascists is a hunter who tracks down and hunts fascists (i.e. hunter who shoot fascists). Is it correct?

2. If I understand correctly, hunter for the fascists is the hunter who works for fascists, i.e. he hunts down enemies of the fascists. Right?

If so, than `ohotnik za fashistami`, as is written on the back of 133A definitely is hunter of the type one. If Marina translated it as type two - then there is a question why. The simplest explanation is she wasn't fluent in English enough and translated the text literally (if you take the Russian word `za` alone and translate it in English, you get `for` as result correctly. Word `hunter` is the one who makes the difference in our subject phrase).

However, if she was not sure about her own handwriting and couldn't remember did she write something on that photo or not, it IS suspicious.

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Re: question for 9K116

Post by greg parker on Thu 28 Jul 2011, 9:30 am

9K116 wrote:I understand there is difference in meanings of `hunter of the fascists` and `hunter for the fascists`, but I am not sure I understand them properly. I propose to define both them more detailed, ok?

1. As I understand, hunter of the fascists is a hunter who tracks down and hunts fascists (i.e. hunter who shoot fascists). Is it correct?

2. If I understand correctly, hunter for the fascists is the hunter who works for fascists, i.e. he hunts down enemies of the fascists. Right?

If so, than `ohotnik za fashistami`, as is written on the back of 133A definitely is hunter of the type one. If Marina translated it as type two - then there is a question why. The simplest explanation is she wasn't fluent in English enough and translated the text literally (if you take the Russian word `za` alone and translate it in English, you get `for` as result correctly. Word `hunter` is the one who makes the difference in our subject phrase).

However, if she was not sure about her own handwriting and couldn't remember did she write something on that photo or not, it IS suspicious.

Yes, You got the two meanings exactly right. Here is more from her testimony.

Mr. SAWYER - And then the writing down in the lower right "To my friend George. From Lee Oswald" did I understand whether or not you could identify that as Lee's writing?
Mrs. PORTER - I cannot identify it as Lee's writing. I cannot, I do not remember what Lee's handwriting looks like in English. I do not have anything in my hands to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - So that when you can't, it is merely that you don't know whether it is or not. You don't have an opinion that it is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PORTER - That is true. It is for experts to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - And the way the date is written,,there, "5," and then a slant, and then "IV, and then slant and 63 do I understand that would be a way in writing it in Russian of 5 April 1963, in effect?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. SAWYER - Because they use a Roman numeral for the month.
Mrs. PORTER - Some do, yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And usually they have the month follow the date, like they do in the Navy or other.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I guess so.
Mr. SAWYER - I presume that George is DeMohrenschildt; am I correct on that?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - Because down where it says "Copyright," then in the same handwriting as the copyright is written, it has "G" and then "de" and then "M" which I presume are George DeMohrenschildt's initials.
Mrs. PORTER - Yes; I presume that is.
Mr. SAWYER - Do you know whose writing it is in Russian up at the top, where it says "Hunter for fascists. Ha, ha, ha"?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, some letters would be, look like I would write, but some not, so I am confused about that inscription in the back.
Mr. SAWYER - You don't know whether that is your writing or not, or do you know it is not? You are not clear on it?
Mrs. PORTER - Well, like if I look at first, you know, I think yes, it is my handwriting, until I start to analyze it, and it is not. Those letters "Ha, ha, ha," you know, the letter "Ha," that is not my way of writing this certain letter.

I think further into the testimony, they got her to more or less admit she wrote it.

But before that, there was also this exchange:

Mr. SAWYER - Well, just as I look at this, and I do not purport to be any kind of a handwriting expert, but the writing at the bottom, "Copyright G.dM." appears to have some considerable significance, similarity to the letters of the title written up there in Russian. Did DeMohrenschildt speak and write Russian?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I think he did.
Mr. SAWYER - Fluently?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - And as I recall, you said that Lee referred to General Walker as a fascist; is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. SAWYER - But you are not familiar with the handwriting of DeMohrenschildt yourself?.
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. SAWYER - But you do not think this is your handwriting, in any event?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not think so, sir.
Mr. SAWYER - And as to whether it would be Lee's or not, you just do not know; is this right?
Mrs. PORTER - No. I mean if anybody have my handwriting, you know, in Russian somewhere they are welcome to compare.

So Sawyer suspected it was George De M who wrote it...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3450
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Re: question for 9K116

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