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Hargrove Claiming Victory

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Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by Vinny on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 2:32 am

Harvey and Lee Critics Failed
   to Debunk ANYTHING
 I presented in this thread

This lengthy thread was started a half year ago when an H&L critic attempted to mock the clear fact that “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” command of the Russian language was FAR too good to be explained by his Official Biography®.  In post after post right here in this thread, I and others showed how wrong that critic was.   Eventually, the absurdity of the H&L critics’ arguments prompted Prof. James Norwood to research and write a definitive article on Oswald’s unexplained Russian language skills.  It can be read here:


It hardly comes as a surprise that the H&L critics were unable to debunk a single one of the many examples presented in this thread proving that two young men were sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the 1950s and early 1960s, all taken from information presented in John Armstrong’s book Harvey and Lee.  Among the examples the critics failed to debunk were:

  • “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the fall semester of 1953 simultaneously attended PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  
  • The very next year, according to brother Robert, several newspaper accounts, NYC school records and numerous eyewitnesses recorded in currently accessible YouTube interviews, Oswald attended Stripling junior high in Fort Worth while simultaneously attending PS 44 in New York City. 
  • Lee Oswald’s half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission several pictures of “Oswald,” including the famous Bronx Zoo, were not of his brother.
  • In September 1958, one Oswald sailed to the South China Sea and was stationed in Taiwan while the other was treated for VD in Japan.
  • In January 1961, one LHO appeared at the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans while the other was living in the USSR.
  • During roughly the same period, one LHO was spotted by Marita Lorenz and others in Miami and the Florida Everglades working with anti-Castro Cubans while the other LHO was living in Minsk.
  • Many existing documents indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height was 5’9” tall, while many others indicate he was 5’11”.  Hardly any show he was 5’10”.  H&L critics like to say Oswald sometimes “exaggerated” his height, as if the U.S. Marine Corps allowed it’s own soldiers to give estimates of their own heights on medical records. 
  • One Oswald did not drive and only had a learner’s permit.  The other did drive and had a valid Texas driver’s license.
  • One Oswald was seen by many witnesses in Dallas and with Jack Ruby in 1963 while the other Oswald was living in New Orleans.
  • “Lee Harvey Oswald” according to DPD reports and civilian eyewitnesses, was arrested in the Texas Theater balcony AND on the main floor.   One was led out the theater back door, and the other out the front.
  • While one LHO was elsewhere, the other was seen at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target. A second Oswald was seen at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership in Dallas on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.
  • While Harvey Oswald was working at the Texas Book Depository, another LHO appeared at the Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked, and at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
  • While Harvey Oswald was still working at the Book Depository on November 20, a second LHO was hitchhiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).
  • Harvey and Lee and this thread have also provided many examples of how Hoover’s FBI altered witness statements about events in Dealey Plaza, altered sworn testimony of their own agents at the Warren Commission hearings, and lied about the secret transfer and alteration of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” so-called possessions.


The critics’ failure to debunk any of the above didn’t surprise me.  Most of John’s major points about the Two Oswalds simply cannot be discounted.  Toward the end of their appearances in this thread the critics claimed, without citing any evidence at all, that  a fellow named “Greg Parker” had explained everything on another website, but they failed to show (or even summarize) those explanations here.  Had they done so, people like myself, David Josephs, Sandy Larsen, and James Norwood could have easily torn those arguments to pieces.  Of course, they didn’t have the courage to debate the issue here, claiming only that Greg Parker had all the answers.
Perhaps one or more of the H&L Hit Team will resurrect the Greg Parker excuse now, but you can bet they wont try to debate the issues here, where all can see the paucity and speciousness of their arguments.

Toward the end of this thread, at least up to this point, ONE THING ABOUT THE H&L CRITICS AMAZED ME! I’m sure it is obvious to anyone who reads the last few pages of this thread.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by steely dan on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 3:01 am

He could have finished his post with.......CHECKMATE!

Just sayin'

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by greg parker on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 8:41 am

Jimbo is a coward hiding behind the pretext that because the arguments are not laid out in front of him at the Ed Forum, he is not obliged to address them.

It's like an army re-routing around the enemy to avoid them because they know they're out-gunned - and then having avoided them, claiming victory.

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Reality Bytes for the H & L Gang

Post by greg parker on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 9:51 am


  • Lee Harvey Oswald” in the fall semester of 1953 simultaneously attended PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  


Reality: the Beauregard records incorporates data from ps 44. The H & L Gang are simply claiming all of the data is for Beauregard. You could easily look at any school record where a mid-year transfer has occurred and see the same thing. It would be a severe disadvantage to any child not to have those records follow them and be recorded as part of the school year record.


  • The very next year, according to brother Robert, several newspaper accounts, NYC school records and numerous eyewitnesses recorded in currently accessible YouTube interviews, Oswald attended Stripling junior high in Fort Worth while simultaneously attending PS 44 in New York City. 


Reality: Robert assumed Lee went to Stripling because that was the school in the district they lived and he himself had gone there. But instead, Lee was taken to NY.  Armstrong uses the same techniques police use to elicit the statements they want from witnesses - regardless of what the truth is. That can be seen in multiple award winning documentaries.  Further, the claim that the FBI raided the school the weekend of the assassination and was handed LHO's school records is an egregious claim, so outrageously unlikely that many have bought into it the same way that other noted propagandists have utilized the Power of the Big Lie. Fort Worth School records were obtained legally through the school board and in any case such archived records were not kept on school premises. The person enlisted to carry this flag happened to be long time friend of one of the chief architects of this hilarity - Jack White - one of the many issues the H & L Gang continues to dodge.


  • Lee Oswald’s half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission several pictures of “Oswald,” including the famous Bronx Zoo, were not of his brother.


Reality: the above is just an outright lie. This is the relevant testimony:

Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection. 


So Pic never said it "wasn't" his brother. He said the photo did not look like how he recalled his brother looking. With other photos, he said the person looked more like Robert than Lee. I have no doubt that some photo of Robert did get mislabeled as Lee. Pic's lack of exact memory of how his brother looked is unsurprising since they had barely seen each other over the years. Pic was away at the orphanage and later, in a Christian Military school, then into the military. The other elephant in this room never explained by the H & L Gang is why a Hungarian born refugee living in NY (the background they have given to their phantom) is seen in the zoo photo wearing distinctly southern style clothing! Was he practicing for the lead role in Midnight Cowboy????


  • In September 1958, one Oswald sailed to the South China Sea and was stationed in Taiwan while the other was treated for VD in Japan.


Reality: this is nought but a biased rendering of the extant records - and as demonstrated in the past - not the only possible rendering of those records. Unlike the H & L Gang, I contacted a former crew member of the Skaggit. Treatment was available for VD on board.


  • In January 1961, one LHO appeared at the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans while the other was living in the USSR.


Reality: another outright lie. There is no documentation showing anyone named "Lee Harvey Oswald" appeared at the Bolton Ford in New Orleans while the real Oswald was in the USSR. The name given and written down was simply "Oswald" - and there were no shortages of Oswalds in New Orleans. If this theory actually had legs, there woyld be no need to continually lie about the records show.


  • During roughly the same period, one LHO was spotted by Marita Lorenz and others in Miami and the Florida Everglades working with anti-Castro Cubans while the other LHO was living in Minsk.


Reality: the use of dubious witnesses is the hallmark of this entire theory. Lorenz is not credible. The only people who believe anything she said are those who stand to gain from her testimony by way of "corroboration" for pet theories. She and other Armstrong "witnesses" are akin to the set of Judyth Baker witnesses. Laughable. 


  • Many existing documents indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height was 5’9” tall, while many others indicate he was 5’11”.  Hardly any show he was 5’10”.  H&L critics like to say Oswald sometimes “exaggerated” his height, as if the U.S. Marine Corps allowed it’s own soldiers to give estimates of their own heights on medical records. 


Reality: the 5' 11" height is shown on discharge papers only, so yes - I could imagine that was self-assessment because the USMC has no use for that information any more. If you want to claim his height was measured on exit, please provide your evidence that it was standard practice to measure. We know he was measured on entry because he is listed as 5' 8". The whole height argument in relation to Lee and Marguerite is just a scam anyway. People are taller at the different times of the day - proven scientifically. People also start to shrink after a certain age - also proven scientifically. The H & L Gang would prefer people to believe that height is static throughout one's adult life, when the reality is, it's not even static throughout one day. Then add on, the wearing of heels, uneven ground and a host of other issues and you can make virtually any ridiculous claim you want to make. 


  • One Oswald did not drive and only had a learner’s permit.  The other did drive and had a valid Texas driver’s license.


Reality: there was only one Lee Harvey Oswald. And claiming someone can't drive on the basis that they did not have a license is as about as silly as it gets. You may as well claim someone doesn't know how to shoot a rifle unless they have a gun license. 

Let's also put to bed that what Oswald had was a "learner's permit". 

Here is what Buell Frazier said:

Mr. BALL - And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test. 
Mr. BALL - Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking. Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out. 
Representative FORD - Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car-- 
Representative FORD - Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own. 


  • One Oswald was seen by many witnesses in Dallas and with Jack Ruby in 1963 while the other Oswald was living in New Orleans.


Reality: Ruby had a series of young men staying with him throughout the years culminating in Larry Crafard. Crafard was most definitely mistaken for Oswald in the memories of a number of witnesses. Coincidentally, Larry was also in Dallas during March, April and May. How do I know? Because he testified to that fact. Is it possible he hung out with Ruby during that time? Seems possible. If not, it was just one of Ruby's other young male friends. The reliance on witnesses by the H & L Gang is staggering given what is now known about how unreliable witness testimony is.  

More later.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by greg parker on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 10:35 am

greg parker wrote:

  • Lee Harvey Oswald” in the fall semester of 1953 simultaneously attended PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  


Reality: the Beauregard records incorporates data from ps 44. The H & L Gang are simply claiming all of the data is for Beauregard. You could easily look at any school record where a mid-year transfer has occurred and see the same thing. It would be a severe disadvantage to any child not to have those records follow them and be recorded as part of the current school year record.


  • The very next year, according to brother Robert, several newspaper accounts, NYC school records and numerous eyewitnesses recorded in currently accessible YouTube interviews, Oswald attended Stripling junior high in Fort Worth while simultaneously attending PS 44 in New York City. 


Reality: Robert assumed Lee went to Stripling because that was the school in the district in which they lived, and he himself had gone there. But instead, Lee was taken to NY.  Armstrong uses the same techniques police use to elicit the statements they want from witnesses - regardless of what the truth is. That can be seen in multiple award winning documentaries.  Further, the claim that the FBI raided the school the weekend of the assassination and was handed LHO's school records is an egregious claim, so outrageously unlikely that many have bought into it in the same way that people brought into other noted propagandists who utilized the Power of the Big Lie. Fort Worth School records were obtained legally through the school board and in any case such archived records are not kept on school premises. The person enlisted to carry this flag happened to be a long time friend of one of the chief architects of this hilarity - Jack White - and his self-admitted friendship with this key witness is one of the many issues the H & L Gang continues to dodge.


  • Lee Oswald’s half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission several pictures of “Oswald,” including the famous Bronx Zoo, were not of his brother.


Reality: the above is just an outright lie. This is the relevant testimony:

Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection. 


So Pic never said it "wasn't" his brother. He said the photo did not look like how he recalled his brother looking. With other photos, he said the person looked more like Robert than Lee. I have no doubt that some photos of Robert did get mislabeled as Lee. Pic's lack of exact memory of how his brother looked is unsurprising since they had barely seen each other over the years. Pic was away at the orphanage and later, in a Christian Military school, then into the military. The other elephant in this room never explained by the H & L Gang is why a Hungarian born refugee living in NY (the background they have given to their phantom) is seen in the zoo photo wearing distinctly southern style clothing! Was he practicing for the lead role in Midnight Cowboy????


  • In September 1958, one Oswald sailed to the South China Sea and was stationed in Taiwan while the other was treated for VD in Japan.


Reality: this is nought but a biased rendering of the extant records - and as demonstrated in the past - not the only possible rendering of those records. Unlike the H & L Gang, I contacted a former crew member of the Skaggit. Treatment was available for VD on board.


  • In January 1961, one LHO appeared at the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans while the other was living in the USSR.


Reality: another outright lie. There is no documentation showing anyone named "Lee Harvey Oswald" appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the real Oswald was in the USSR. The name given and written down was simply "Oswald" - and there were no shortages of Oswalds in New Orleans. If this theory actually had legs, there would be no need to continually lie about what the records show.


  • During roughly the same period, one LHO was spotted by Marita Lorenz and others in Miami and the Florida Everglades working with anti-Castro Cubans while the other LHO was living in Minsk.


Reality: the use of dubious witnesses is the hallmark of this entire theory. Lorenz is not credible. The only people who believe anything she said are those who stand to gain from her testimony by way of "corroboration" for pet theories. She and other Armstrong "witnesses" are akin to the set of Judyth Baker witnesses. Laughable. 


  • Many existing documents indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height was 5’9” tall, while many others indicate he was 5’11”.  Hardly any show he was 5’10”.  H&L critics like to say Oswald sometimes “exaggerated” his height, as if the U.S. Marine Corps allowed it’s own soldiers to give estimates of their own heights on medical records. 


Reality: the 5' 11" height is shown on discharge papers only, so yes - I could imagine that was self-assessment because the USMC has no use for that information any more. If you want to claim his height was measured on exit, please provide your evidence that it was standard practice to measure. We know he was measured on entry because he is listed as 5' 8". The whole height argument in relation to Lee and Marguerite is just a scam anyway. People "shrink" and "grow" at different times of the day - proven scientifically. People also start to shrink after a certain age - also proven scientifically. The H & L Gang would prefer people to believe that height is static throughout one's adult life, when the reality is, it's not even static throughout one day. Then add on, the wearing of heels, uneven ground and a host of other issues and you can make virtually any ridiculous claim you want to make regarding height. 


  • One Oswald did not drive and only had a learner’s permit.  The other did drive and had a valid Texas driver’s license.


Reality: there was only one Lee Harvey Oswald. And claiming someone can't drive on the basis that they did not have a license is as about as silly as it gets. You may as well claim someone doesn't know how to shoot a rifle unless they have a gun license. 

Let's also put to bed that what Oswald had was a "learner's permit". 

Here is what Buell Frazier said:

Mr. BALL - And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test. 
Mr. BALL - Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking. Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out. 
Representative FORD - Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car-- 
Representative FORD - Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own. 


  • One Oswald was seen by many witnesses in Dallas and with Jack Ruby in 1963 while the other Oswald was living in New Orleans.


Reality: Ruby had a series of young men staying with him throughout the years culminating in Larry Crafard. Crafard was most definitely mistaken for Oswald in the memories of a number of witnesses. Coincidentally, Larry was also in Dallas during March, April and May. How do I know? Because he testified to that fact. Is it possible he hung out with Ruby during that time? Seems possible. If not, it was just one of Ruby's other young male friends. The reliance on witnesses by the H & L Gang is staggering given what is now known about how unreliable witness testimony is.  

More later.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 9:02 am; edited 2 times in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 20 Sep 2017, 4:35 pm

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by greg parker on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 7:11 pm


  • “Lee Harvey Oswald” according to DPD reports and civilian eyewitnesses, was arrested in the Texas Theater balcony AND on the main floor.   One was led out the theater back door, and the other out the front.


Reality: there was one such report, not plural and it was obviously in error based on knowledge that the information they received was that the suspect was in the balcony.

Clearly, he was not 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483 

As for the person taken out the back... Hargrove is trying to get away with saying this was "another" Oswald, when in fact it was a witness being taken in to give a statement.


  • While one LHO was elsewhere, the other was seen at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target. A second Oswald was seen at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership in Dallas on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.


Reality: the sports drome witnesses scrape the bottom of the H & L barrel
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59645 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293 

Reality: the Lincoln Mercury dealership episode did happen. With the historical Lee Harvey Oswald. And once again, Hargrove is stretching the truth - this time by stating that Oswald drove "wrecklessly" [sic] at high speeds..." Hargrove is stretching the facts to conform with the H & L mantra that Oswald could not drive. But here is what Bogard actually said:

Mr. BOGARD. He might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, he knew how to drive. 
Mr. BALL. What do you mean, "He might have drove it a little reckless"? 
Mr. BOGARD. Well, going 60 and 70 miles an hour right up a Freeway and took curves kind of fast. 
Mr. BALL Did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car? 
Mr. BOGARD. Yes

What the H & L Gang expect everyone to believe is that at the same time Oswald (mistakenly) believes he needs a car to pass his drivers test, and has been discussing car purchases with both Mike Paine and Buell Frazier, that coincidently, someone impersonates him at a car dealership pretending to be interested in buying a car.

Poppycock! It was the real LHO doing what young men do - taking a car he couldn't afford for a test drive and then lying about coming back in a few weeks with the money to buy it. Like that scenario has never happened on Planet Earth before. 


  • While Harvey Oswald was working at the Texas Book Depository, another LHO appeared at the Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked, and at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.


Reality: Given that "Harvey" had the job at the TSBD and was the one married to Marina, these are the options left to the H & L Gang in accepting this episode -

1. "Harvey" slipped out from work early without being noticed and went to Irving where he took Marina and the kids in Mrs. Paine's car to go to the furniture mart. He did so in order to frame "Lee" framing him.

2. "Harvey" slipped out from work early without being noticed and took a doppelganged family to the furniture mart in Ruth Paine's car. He did this in order to frame "Lee" framing him.

3. An unknown third Oswald (a second Oswald doppelganger) took a doppelganged family to the furniture Mart. He did this in order to frame "Harvey" framing "Lee".

4. "Lee" took Marina and the kids to the furniture mart, thus implicating Marina in the whole H & L charade.

5. "Lee" took a doppelganged family to the furniture mart to frame "Harvey".

Of course, taking the wife and kids (or even doppelganged wife and kids) on a trip designed to frame "Harvey" makes zero sense as it increases the risk of exposure through Marina (or her doppelganger) blabbing. Also taking them seems to serve zero purpose for any frame, unless you are trying to frame Marina as well.

And we really should rule out options 4 and 5 because the witnesses all claimed the person was identical with the person shot by Ruby - and we all know, Official H & L Policy is that the two doppelgangers really were not all that much alike.

The Allright job may or may not have been the real LHO.  Hallmark thought his day manager Morrow made up the story, though another employee, Montgomery,  believed he could recall the man.  Jimbo is keen to include that Morrow said the man asked about high the building was, and he implies that the reason for doing so was a potential sniper position. All meaningless of course, if the building offered no such sniper shot on the motorcade. But it is also meaningless if that is not in fact what the person asked. According to Montgomery, the actual question asked by the potential applicant was "how many floors of parking does the garage have?" with the additional question of what the hours of employment were? Both sensible questions for a job applicant to make. So could it have been Oswald? Sure. He knew his job at the TSBD was only temporary. Could it have been someone who at other times, was mistaken for Oswald? Sure. This was around the time Larry Crafard was getting pissed off with Ruby about not being paid, so Crafard is a possibility Could it have been anyone else? Sure. Mistaken memory is common in these cases and is possible here because Hallmark claims Morrow told him he ran Oswald off because he did not think Hallmark would employ him. Hallmark on the other hand, judging Oswald from how he looked in published photos, stated categorically that Oswald was just the type of clean cut looking kid he would have been keen to interview.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57772 


  • While Harvey Oswald was still working at the Book Depository on November 20, a second LHO was hitchhiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).


Reality: Co worker Dempsey Jones confirmed that Yates had told him prior to the assassination about picking up the hitch-hiker. Jones also confirmed that Yates had mentioned that the person had a package, but had not described that package to him. It was only AFTER the assassination that Yates first described it as a "long package" and then in the retelling AFTER THAT added the additional detail that the man had said it was "window shades". Jones also stated that Yates was a "big talker" and "always talks lots of foolishness".

Yates was unable to clearly explain his presence in Oak Cliff and the jobs he claimed to be on did not check out. He was quite obviously there for reasons he was not going to be open about. One person who was likely in the area having breakfast with Jack Ruby was Larty Crafard. Crafard was certainly more likely to be hitch-hiking and be asking about someone named Jack (he admitted exaggerating in his first statement that the name mentioned was "Jack Ruby" stating it was really just "Jack"). 

Other information withheld from readers of Jimbo's nonsense is that while Jones did confirm that Yates told him pre-assassination that the hiker had talked about a shooter from a building, it was Yates himself who instigated that conversation by bringing up the Adlai Stephenson incident. That's the nature of conversation. Someone says something, and you reply and gradually the conversation drifts to related or even just semi-related topics. All of the other stuff mentioned by Yates was well after the assassination and easily obtained via the media. 
 
Lastly, the hiker did NOT ask to be dropped off "across the street from the Texas School Book Depository". Per Yates himself, the hiker asked to be dropped off on Houston St. Asked where on Houston, the hiker replied "anywhere will do". 

In summary, Yates did pick up a hiker in Oak Cliff though he was evasive about his real reasons for being in that area. The sum total of the record on this incident points to Crafard as the hiker and that Yates made an honest mistake in misidentifying the person as Oswald.


  • Harvey and Lee and this thread have also provided many examples of how Hoover’s FBI altered witness statements about events in Dealey Plaza, altered sworn testimony of their own agents at the Warren Commission hearings, and lied about the secret transfer and alteration of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” so-called possessions.


Even if, purely for the sake of argument, all of that is true, it is incumbent upon the accuser to prove it in each individual case. But that is not what the H & L Gang does. They make lofty claims that anything not fitting their theory has been altered and when challenged on it, revert to these very generalized claims. It is a form of logical fallacy called proof by example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example but it is just one of a whole array of logical fallacies the H & L Gang employs.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by steely dan on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 10:16 am

Hargrove, who is desperately trying to lay his eggs, has returned to the tired old turd Kudalty.
Let's see if he calls for Jack White during birth.
Or will he decide the unit diaries are more moist?

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Checkmate.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 24 Sep 2017, 8:40 am

How do you spell "cult"?  H-A-R-V-E-Y-&-L-E-E.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by Jake Sykes on Sun 24 Sep 2017, 9:20 am

Stop it Stan you're scaring me.

Fortunately Jeremy has "staged" an intervention over there, quite literally one could say.

Brilliant stuff from Jeremy. As far as I'm concerned he's nailed it with brass tacks and a silk lining. RIP H&L.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

Post by Jake Sykes on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 1:56 am

The results of a pixel counting biometric comparison simply demonstrate the sensitivity of that program to register differences that exist between various photographs of a given person, whether those differences are the results of the photographic techniques utilized, of physical changes that have occurred in one person, or the differences between two people. The registration of those differences does not say which of these three categories caused those differences. 

To state it another way, while the system may have merit or serve some useful purpose in having the capability to reveal subtle differences, it in no way, shape, or form is an indicator of the existence of two different people in this case. While those differences correlate with the results that would accrue from analyzing the photographs of two different people, those differences do not constitute proof of there being two different people. A lawyer too stupid to see that and a researcher too one sided to acknowledge it doesn't change a single thing, or person into two things, or two people.

The superficiality of Phipp's analysis in ruling out differences that would accrue due to photo techniques without even mentioning the effects foreshortening would have on the mathematical values of the ratios that are the bedrock of the comparison technique is further evidence of a flawed thinking process and flawed results.

The more subtle the differences are, and they are necessarily very subtle owing to the obvious similarities in the images of this person, the more those subtleties necessitate the obvious conclusion that it is indeed a single person.

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Re: Hargrove Claiming Victory

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