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Follow-up Response to Greg: Wilcott

on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 4:32 am
Greg,

All of the points that you raise about Wilcott are valid.  At the same time, I am not willing to throw out Wilcott as an eyewitness.  This was a man who gave testimony under oath before the HSCA.  For this reason, his words merit greater evidentiary weight than an off-the-record account or an informal interview.

Another argument in support of Wilcott’s credibility was his willingness to provide the names of colleagues who knew about Oswald’s role in the CIA’s false defector’s program.  If Wilcott was implicating others knowledgeable of Oswald’s assignment and those allegations were untrue, he was exposing himself to perjury in the event that his friends and colleagues were to testify that he was a liar. 

In the HSCA testimony, the names of several of Wilcott’s CIA friends that he identified were redacted.  But the names of George Breen and Ed Luck do appear in the transcript.  Breen was described by Wilcott as “my closest friend.”  With Wilcott’s explosive testimony, it is unlikely that he would be throwing his best friend under the bus, unless the assertions were grounded in truth.

******

Thus far into our debate, you and I are in agreement on a major issue:  the “defection” of Oswald in 1959 was not genuine, but the product of a carefully orchestrated CIA intelligence operation.  It is fair to say that we may never know all of the details of the internal workings of the defection mission.


But the area where we disagree is the question of why Oswald was the CIA’s choice for a false defector.

• It is your position that Oswald was “targeted” due to his association with CAP, Ferrie, and the Marines.

• It is my position that Oswald was not merely targeted, but specially singled out for the mission for one reason:  his expertise in speaking the Russian language.

I look forward to receiving your questions and criticism on this major issue, as covered in my article “Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language.”


James

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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 3:37 pm
James Norwood wrote:Greg,

All of the points that you raise about Wilcott are valid.  At the same time, I am not willing to throw out Wilcott as an eyewitness.  This was a man who gave testimony under oath before the HSCA.  For this reason, his words merit greater evidentiary weight than an off-the-record account or an informal interview.

Another argument in support of Wilcott’s credibility was his willingness to provide the names of colleagues who knew about Oswald’s role in the CIA’s false defector’s program.  If Wilcott was implicating others knowledgeable of Oswald’s assignment and those allegations were untrue, he was exposing himself to perjury in the event that his friends and colleagues were to testify that he was a liar. 

In the HSCA testimony, the names of several of Wilcott’s CIA friends that he identified were redacted.  But the names of George Breen and Ed Luck do appear in the transcript.  Breen was described by Wilcott as “my closest friend.”  With Wilcott’s explosive testimony, it is unlikely that he would be throwing his best friend under the bus, unless the assertions were grounded in truth.

******

Thus far into our debate, you and I are in agreement on a major issue:  the “defection” of Oswald in 1959 was not genuine, but the product of a carefully orchestrated CIA intelligence operation.  It is fair to say that we may never know all of the details of the internal workings of the defection mission.


But the area where we disagree is the question of why Oswald was the CIA’s choice for a false defector.

• It is your position that Oswald was “targeted” due to his association with CAP, Ferrie, and the Marines.

• It is my position that Oswald was not merely targeted, but specially singled out for the mission for one reason:  his expertise in speaking the Russian language.

I look forward to receiving your questions and criticism on this major issue, as covered in my article “Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language.”


James

James,

1. Just the lack of arms length funding alone invalidates Wicoltt's version of what was happening. 

2. I don't subscribe to it being a CIA operation. It may have been, but I lean more towards it merely providing support. 

3. It is my opinion that there was no "false defector" program - but in some ways, that is splitting hairs. I think a different term may have been used, or it was hidden inside some other program. Even then, I am not certain I would categorize Oswald's stay in the SU a "false defector" operation. More of a quid pro quo with false defector "window dressing".

4. Before tackling your major issue, I want to address your posts that o have not yet responded to.

5. Note that I always try and rule out non-conspiracy, non intel-related possibilities for events, actions and abilities and appearances before jumping straight to the conspiracy narrative.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 4:47 pm
greg parker wrote:
4. Before tackling your major issue, I want to address your posts that o have not yet responded to.


Greg,

This sounds like a good plan, as noted in your point #4.  I will not prepare a post on a new topic until we have caught up on previous issues.

Regarding my earlier posts that have not been answered, they were all written collectively in response to your commentary entitled “Item One—The State of Oswald’s Extant Records.”  My five “case studies” were intended as examples of various kinds of “extant evidence” in the study of Oswald.  I was not expecting replies from you for all five specialized topics.  So, the only outstanding post of mine for you to answer is the one in response to you that begins, “As students of the JFK assassination, we are all striving to understand the life of Lee Harvey Oswald” with the five "case studies" as potential examples for discussion.

We have also agreed to postpone debate of the Sylvia Odio case; but I hope there will come a time when we will return to it.

For the moment, I will hold off on writing another post until I receive a new one from you.

Thanks!


James   
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 9:31 am
James Norwood wrote:Palmer McBride was a friend of Oswald in New Orleans from fall 1957 through early 1958.  But during this same period, another Oswald was stationed in Atsugi, Japan.  McBride was an eyewitness of impeccable character and memory, and he is even mentioned in your essay “Get Me to Helsinki In a Hurry.”  Beyond McBride’s recall of his friendship with Oswald in 1957-58, there is corroborating evidence that Oswald was living and working in New Orleans from employees at Pfisterer Dental Lab where Oswald worked, along with artifacts such as the record of a rare performance of Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov in New Orleans during this period.  The limited-run opera was attended by Oswald and McBride.  As Marine records definitively place one Oswald in Japan from 1957-58, the hypothesis is that a second Oswald was living concurrently in New Orleans.


From mcBride's initial FBI report based on 11/23/63 interview. Note that the FBI used quote marks and that McBride read and signed each page: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95623&relPageId=82
"During his first visit to my home in late 1957 or early 1958 the discussion turned to politics and to the possibility of war. At this time I made a statement to the effect that President DWIGHT EISENHOWER was doing a pretty good job for a man of his age and background, but that I did feel more emphasis should be placed on the space program in view of Russian successes. OSWALD was very anti-Eisenhower, and stated that President EISENHOWER was exploiting the working people. He then made a statement to the effect that he would like to kill President EISENHOWER because he was exploiting the working class. This statement was not made in jest, and OSWALD was in a serious frame of mind when this statement was made."
I want to concentrate on the two highlighted parts of the text.

1. This is expanded on later in the document when McBride states that in "April or May, 1958 Oswald stated he was moving to Ft Worth....in about August 1958 I got a letter from him saying he had gotten mixed up in a anti-Negro or anti-Communist riot on high school grounds in Ft Worth"

The official time-line indicates Marguerite and Lee actually moved to Ft Worth 2 years prior to what McBride recalled.

The official time-line is correct.

Here is the evidence. From the Spokane Daily Chronicle Sept 3, 1956



there were no similar stories coming out of Ft Worth in 1958. There is a simple reason for that. The riots during 1956 in Ft Worth were related to the forcing of the decision in Brown vs Board of Education. 

The problems began at Mansfield:

The Mansfield school desegregation incident is a 1956 event in the Civil Rights Movement in Mansfield, Texas, a suburb of the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex.


In 1956, the Mansfield Independent School District was segregated and still sent its black children to separate, run down facilities, despite the Brown v. Board of Education court decision in 1954.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_school_desegregation_incident



On the second issue, McBride is recalling a debate with Oswald about "Russian success" with their space program.  If he had meant "Sputnik", he surely would have said "Sputnik".

It was by no means impossible to talk about "Russian success" in space PRIOR to Sputnik. The newspapers of the day were continually hammering away at how the US was falling behind the successful Russians. 

Here are two stories on the subject of Russian success in space both published in the US in the months prior to Oswald leaving NO for Ft Worth. 

Soviet Race For 'Moon' Spurs US

Pay-Per-View - 
Christian Science Monitor - May 4, 1956 
According to reports , Soviet space . under the direction of t;ommission . on Travel. Some of the Soviet Union's top natural scientists are believed to be ... 



SOVIET SPACE SHIP IN '56 ENVISIONED; London Red Paper...

$3.95 - 
New York Times - Jan 3, 1956 
The Communist newspaper Daily Worker reported in a Moscow dispatch today that the Soviet Union might be ready to launch a space satellite this year.... 

Here are a list of NO witnesses and the time period they recall Oswald

Peggy Zimmerman - recalled Oswald as attending in 54/55. Did Armstrong interview her?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=26

Mrs Bernierita Smith - recalled Oswald as attending in 54/55. Did Armstrong interview her?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=26

Mrs Anna Langlois - recalled Oswald as attending in 54/55. Did Armstrong interview her?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=27

Fred O'sullivan - 54/55. Did Armstrong interview him?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=27

Jack Loyakano - 54/55. Did Armstrong interview him?
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=715120

Carroll Battistella - 54/55. Did Armstrong interview her?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=28

Joan Burgard - 54/55. Did Armstrong interview her?
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=29

One final thing - in Louisiana, a Census Form was completed for EVERY child attending school in that state. Did anyone associated with the Two Oswald theory ever check those Census records?
www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10407&relPageId=83 


=========================
 
Given all of the above, McBride;s memory of who he attended the opera with and/or when must be faulty. In any case, the story is dubious no matter what date it was or who he claimed to go with.

In 1956-57, the average price for an opera ticket was $8:00 compared to $2: 00  to see Fats Domino. $8.00 was the amount of weekly board Oswald was paying in 1963 so I seriously question how a couple of kids earning a pittance some years earlier could afford the tickets. 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 9:36 am
James Norwood wrote:Regarding my earlier posts that have not been answered, they were all written collectively in response to your commentary entitled “Item One—The State of Oswald’s Extant Records.”  My five “case studies” were intended as examples of various kinds of “extant evidence” in the study of Oswald.  I was not expecting replies from you for all five specialized topics.  So, the only outstanding post of mine for you to answer is the one in response to you that begins, “As students of the JFK assassination, we are all striving to understand the life of Lee Harvey Oswald” with the five "case studies" as potential examples for discussion.
I appreciate you not wanting to put me to the extra bother of addressing your case studies, but as you may understand from an academic perspective, nothing should automatically get a free pass. McBride is Exhibit A regarding that sentiment.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 12:49 pm
James Norwood wrote:In fall, 1954, one Oswald is attending school at Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth while another Oswald is attending Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans.  While the Stripling records were confiscated and lost by the FBI, the vice-principal recalled surrendering the records to FBI.  Students recalled Oswald attending Stripling and residing across the street from the school at 2230 Thomas Place.  Even Robert Oswald informed the Warren Commission that his younger brother attended Stripling.  As students at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans vividly recall another Oswald boy attending school in fall 1954, we have another body of conflicting evidence placing two Oswalds in two locations at the same time.
Robert Oswald's memory was far from perfect. Even Armstrong found his memory wanting when it came to Lee watching "I Led Three Lives". 

He or John was also mistaken about when he went to New York and took the Bronx Zoo photo - not to mention about here he stayed.

Mr. PIC - So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx. 
Mr. JENNER - To visit whom? 
Mr. PIC - Sir? 
Mr. JENNER - To visit whom? 
Mr. PIC - To visit my mother and my brother. 
Mr. JENNER - Your brother? 
Mr. PIC - That is correct. 
Mr. JENNER - Did your brother's wife accompany him? 
Mr. PIC - He wasn't married at that time, sir. 
Mr. JENNER - He wasn't married? 
Mr. PIC - I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx. 
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, where did your brother stay? 
Mr. PIC - I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York. 
Mr. JENNER - In any event he did not stay with you. 
Mr. PIC - No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. 

Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family. 
Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay? 
Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address. 

It is as simple as this: Robert correctly recalled that Lee would have gone to Stripling Jr. High as he himself had done, but failed to take into account that this was not possible due to Lee moving to New York. But otherwise, as shown above, reliance on the memory of witnesses to construct a theory is fraught with danger and missteps.

One of the people who investigated the Stripling matter was Jim Marrs. Marrs tld the ARRB, among other things, that Marguerite had told the Warren Commission that Lee started Junior High in Fort Worth. Was that true? No. Marguerite never said that at all.

Marrs to ARRB:
"Finally, I will leave you the story of Oswald attending W.C. Stripling Junior High School in Fort Worth, both his mother and his brother Robert told the Warren Commission that Lee entered junior high school in Fort Worth"

What Marguerite actually said:
Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117? 
Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here. 
Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47 days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the truant officer in the Bronx Zoo. 

and

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended the Ridglea West School and graduated-- was promoted to junior high in 1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York.

Clearly he never enrolled at Stripling. It was still summer vacation at the time they moved. 

Some of the Stripling witnesses may be recalling Robert. As I understand it, some of them claimed Lee was always getting in to fights. If so, they are almost certainly recalling Robert. His friend from Stripling, Fred Clary, described Robert as a "violent person" obsessed with winning every fight he got into.  
www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=58967&relPageId=29

Note that the document says 1959. Clearly this was supposed to read 1949 - a genuine error - the type of error Armstrong typically tried to turn into an accidental truth that the FBI failed to cover up whenever such an error helped his theory.

This leaves us with Frank Kudlaty - and we return to what Marrs said to the ARRB:

"However, just very recently we located and spoke with a Mr. Frank Kudlaty who now lives in Waco just south of here. In 1963, Mr. Kudlaty was the Assistant Principal at W.C. Stripling High School. He said that the day after the assassination, a Saturday, his principal ordered him to go to the school and provide FBI agents with records on Lee Harvey Oswald. He said he handed over a file of school records to the FBI. There is no mention of these records in the Warren Commission Report or volumes."

We all know the official version per Armstrong of how this intrepid team of truth seekers and tellers came to land on the doorstep of Frank Kudlaty. 

Curiously, one teeny-weeny little fact escaped that narrative. Frank Kudlaty and a member of the intrepid team of truth seekers and tellers - one Jack White - had been friends since college days.

"Frank Kudlaty, the assistant principal at Stripling has been a friend of mine since the 1940's, when he was a college classmate. He later rose to be superintendent of schools at Waco Texas before retiring. He is a man of impeccable honesty." Jack White Feb 10, 2007 defending the integrity of the key Two Oswald Stripling witness by virtue of a friendship with him since the 1940s.

"At the time John interviewed him, I had not seen him in about fifty years, although I have seen him a couple of times in recent years. I knew his wife much better than I knew him, as I was in classes with her." Jack White Feb 11, 2007 retreating faster than a Frenchman in WWII, after having it pointed out to him that his friendship with Kudlaty created a conflict of interest.

in the space of 24 hours, "has been a friend of mine since the 1940's, when he was a college classmate."


became "At the time John interviewed him, I had not seen him in about fifty years, although I have seen him a couple of times in recent years. I knew his wife much better than I knew him, as I was in classes with her."


Furthermore, records were not handed over just on request to schools. The Fort Worth school records were obtained through the police going through the school board.


Even if this were possible, Kudlaty should have been instructed to either request they take copies only, or request that the originals be returned and get that in writing. The casual way in which Kudlaty has his story unfolding is literally unbelievable.


We have a principal so disinterested in the most horrific event in modern US history, and so disinterested in legal procedures and protocols, that he delegates his Assistant Principal to meet the FBI and instructs the Assistant Principal to hand over whatever original records they ask for and they can do what they want with them. We don't need them anymore. 

In any trial of Oswald, is Kudlaty someone you would have any confidence with on the stand given all of the above? 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 2:01 pm
James Norwood wrote:In JFK forums, there is endless arguing about photographs that may represent different Oswalds and different Marguerites.  But even Oswald’s half-brother, John Pic, failed to recognize his brother in either (a) the Bronx zoo photograph of young Oswald or (b) a photo of the adult Oswald in New Orleans, handing out leaflets.  This confusion might be an instance of faulty memory or recall if Pic had failed to recognize his sibling in a single photo.  But it is a genuine anomaly that Pic was unable to make a positive identification in two photos.
James, thank you for not committing the same sin as others by falsely claiming that Pic stated the Bronx Zoo photo was not Lee. As you correctly say, he simply failed to recognize him - a subtle but important difference. 

That Pic did not recognize him in the zoo photo is hardly surprising to me. If you go through the family history, Pic and Lee spent hardly any time living under the same roof. Pic was in and out of orphanages and boarding schools while Lee was living with Marguerite or occasionally farmed out to others. Then Pic joined the Coast Guard... 

That said, I do have an issue with the zoo photo. Lee has borrowed Jimmy Durante's schozz for the shot



Was it the same nose stuck on these abominations? 


Looks like it to me... I think some one should dig up Jimmy and check he still has it.

The other photo of Lee leafleting in NO is also explicable.  

1. Lee Oswald was diagnosed in a Minsk hospital with ascariasis for which he was treated with Piperazine. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110342&relPageId=22

2. Ascariasis is a disease caused by roundworm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascariasis

3. Symptoms of ascariasis include weight loss:
http://www.healthline.com/health/ascariasis#symptoms4

4. Side affects of the drugs used to treat ascariasis include hair loss
https://health.wikinut.com/Symptoms-And-Treatment-Of-Ascariasis/21emhjbm/#Symptoms

Among Lee's possessions post-assassination was roundworm medication, Phthalazole
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62274&relPageId=68


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 4:06 pm
James Norwood wrote:Marita Lorenz testified under oath for the HSCA that she had associated with Oswald in the early 1960s.  But she was harassed by the committee’s staff because her testimony contradicted the known facts of Oswald residing in Minsk. Lorenz failed to back down until she was forced to recant her testimony or face charges of perjury.  Most famously, Lorenz was the mistress of Fidel Castro and was conscripted by the CIA in an assassination attempt on Castro.  But her knowledge of the two Oswalds may be a more significant legacy to the historical record.  Today, Lorenz lives in a self-imposed exile in Costa Rica.  
Judyth Baker lived in self-imposed exile in Europe claiming she feared for her life in the US. Look at her now... cleaning up on book tours and conferences across the States.

Ms Lorenz has as much to fear as Judyth. The only people convinced by Ms Lorenz are already those marginalized as cranks and nutjobs. The government has zero to fear from Ms Lorenz and therefore, she has zero to fear from it.

In any case, here is the person she most likely saw in the everglades. Unlike Oswald, he was most certainly there.


William seymour


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 4:39 pm
James Norwood wrote:Dick Bullock was a United States Marine, who knew Oswald while serving in Japan.  But Bullock was flummoxed on the weekend of the assassination when he was unable to recognize the man being paraded through the halls of the Dallas police headquarters and subsequently shot by Jack Ruby.  For years, Bullock lived in a state of confusion.  The man he remembered from Japan was thirty to forty pounds heavier and three to four inches taller than the man in Dallas.  As time passed and the American public lost faith in its government through the Vietnam War, Watergate, and Iran-Contra, Bullock came to the realization that his government had lied to the American people about Oswald.  When I spoke with Bullock by telephone in early 2017, he was angry when he told me, “the man who was killed on television in Dallas was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I knew in the Marines.”  Bullock’s testimony is only the tip of the iceberg in contradictory recollections of Marines whose paths crossed with two different Oswalds.
I was prepared to just say, read my reply to Pic's inability to recognize Lee handing out leaflets.

Then I read the description of "Oswald" given by Bullock abd the rest of the article written by Bill Kelly.

Bullock described the “Ozzie” he knew in the marines as being two or three inches taller, 40 pounds heavier, and a young man who wore thick glasses.

“I knew him as L. Oswald, or ‘Ozzie,’ and he knew me from the name on my shirt: R. Bullock, but he called me ‘Dickie.’ We didn’t know each other’s real names, just what was on the uniform.”

Not aware of the books written about individuals impersonating Oswald, such as Professor Richard Popkin’s “The Second Oswald,” or the idea that there were actually two Lee Harvey Oswalds, a theory advanced in John Armstrong’s new book “Harvey & Lee,” Bullock expressed surprise. “You mean I’m not fantasizing?!”

While Bullock didn’t recognize any of the names of the marines who also knew Oswald at Atsugi,

Hurt wanted to know if Bullock had any photos of Oswald. “Sure I had photos,” Bullock said, “pictures of me and Ozzie sitting around in our skivvies on a Sunday afternoon, throwing a football around, and stuff like that. But it was all lost in a divorce when I moved.” Nor has Bullock been questioned by the FBI or any government investigators.

“He was NOT the guy I saw in the picture on TV shot by Jack Ruby,” Bullock says emphatically. Looking at a color mug shot of Lee Harvey Oswald taken shortly after he was taken into custody by the police, Bullock said, “It looks nothing like him. That’s not the man I knew.”
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/7535-dick-bullock-usmc/

Thick glasses?????

They only knew each other by the names on their uniforms??? Yet he has "Oswald" correctly calling him "Dickie"???

And then expressing surprise that anyone would believe he wasn't fantasizing... because... he was doing just that...

He didn't recognize the names of anyone actually known to associate with Oswald at Atsugi... because he did not associate with Oswald....

The dog ate his photographic evidence!

I too can confirm that several men I knew by the name on their shirts 30 or 40 years, were also not the man shot by Jack Ruby.

Sorry James, but this does not deserve a serious reply.

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Response to Greg: Case Study #1: 1957-58: One Oswald is in New Orleans and one Oswald is in Japan

on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 11:35 pm
James Norwood wrote:Palmer McBride was a friend of Oswald in New Orleans from fall 1957 through early 1958.  But during this same period, another Oswald was stationed in Atsugi, Japan.  McBride was an eyewitness of impeccable character and memory, and he is even mentioned in your essay “Get Me to Helsinki In a Hurry.”  Beyond McBride’s recall of his friendship with Oswald in 1957-58, there is corroborating evidence that Oswald was living and working in New Orleans from employees at Pfisterer Dental Lab where Oswald worked, along with artifacts such as the record of a rare performance of Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov in New Orleans during this period.  The limited-run opera was attended by Oswald and McBride.  As Marine records definitively place one Oswald in Japan from 1957-58, the hypothesis is that a second Oswald was living concurrently in New Orleans.

 
Greg,

Your main argument in seeking to undermine the credibility of Palmer McBride is that he had a faulty memory when recalling the period in which he knew Oswald in New Orleans in late 1957 to early 1958.  But there are other eyewitnesses who remembered that Oswald was residing in New Orleans during this period.  In order to substantiate your claim about McBride’s poor recall, you would need to refute each and every testimony below that corroborates McBride’s timeline.  In its present form, your critique does not hold up under close scrutiny. 

Here is my rebuttal:

1 - Linda Faircloth, the General Manager of the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory conducted an investigation of Oswald’s employment history at her company when she interviewed those employees who recalled Oswald.  Multiple members of the Pfisterer staff were unanimous in recalling that the time of hire for Oswald at their company was in 1957-58, exactly as described by Palmer McBride. (Ms. Faircloth’s interview may be viewed online at youtube)

2 - Further corroboration of McBride comes from Walter Gehrke, another young man who befriended Oswald in New Orleans.  To the FBI, Gehrke recalled a meeting of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association meeting at Gehrke’s home in early 1958, the same timeframe recalled by McBride.  (WC Document 75, p. 499, interview of Walter Gehrke by SA Furman G. Boggan 11/25/63)

3 - In another FBI affidavit, James Harrison Vance, the best friend of Palmer McBride and a part-time worker at Pfisterer Dental, confirmed that he met Oswald in the Pfisterer workplace and several days later, the Astronomy club held a special meeting on January 31, 1958, to celebrate the launch of Explorer I from Cape Canaveral.  While Oswald was not present at the astronomy club meeting, Vance associates that event with his introduction to Oswald several days earlier. (National Archives, CIA 104-10007-10000, JFK 201-289248; FBI interview of James Harrison Vance by SA Ernest Wall, 5/10/66)

4 - In yet another FBI interview, Ralph Hartwell recalled that he was the vice-president of the Astronomy club until he joined the Air Force, leaving New Orleans sometime after December 18, 1956.  While he was serving in the armed forces, he learned through correspondence from his friends that Oswald had been present at an astronomy group meeting.  As the only meeting of the Amateur Astronomy Association that Oswald ever attended was in early 1958, this is further evidence corroborating McBride’s timeline.  (WC Document 75, p. 326; FBI interview of Ralph Hartwell by SA John McCarthy, 11/26/63)  

5 - William E. Wulf was an example of a New Orleans eyewitness, who, under oath, openly acknowledged that his memory was fuzzy on the dates when he knew Oswald.   When asked by Warren Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler if he knew Oswald in 1955, Wulf replied, “1955…yes.  But it is sketchy.  I really cannot say for sure.  I could get it [the date] from the Astronomy Club’s records.”  This testimony illustrates how an eyewitness may become uncomfortable and have difficulty in recall when asked about precise dates in a formal setting.  But when interviewed by John Armstrong in 1993 in a more leisurely setting, Wulf recalled the time period in which he knew Oswald as 1957-58, confirming McBride’s timeline.  Wulf also indicated that he did not recall that he had informed the Warren Commission of his testimony about 1955, stating that “I was just a kid and was so overwhelmed by the events and testifying before those people that I didn’t remember much.”  In my opinion, Wulf is not a very reliable witness when it comes to recalling dates.  But it is unfortunate that the Warren Commission did not follow Wulf’s advice in requisitioning the records from the New Orleans Astronomy club.  Still, Wulf’s informal testimony in the interview is important because he did recall that the first time he met Oswald was at an astronomy club meeting.  And the only astronomy club meeting ever attended by Oswald was in January, 1958.  (WC testimony of William E. Wulf Jr., 8 H 17; Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, 185) 

6 - Paul Fiorello was another eyewitness who was a Pfisterer employee, who recalled being introduced to Oswald around the year 1958.  (Palmer McBride letter of March 10, 1999, below)

7 - McBride prepared his FBI affidavit on November 26, 1963.  Thus, his recall was only five years out from the time of his friendship with Oswald in 1957-58, a time when his memory of his high school years was still fresh.

8 - For the precise reasons that you mention in your critique, the Boris Godunov opera was a special and expensive event for McBride and not one that he would be likely to forget.  McBride indicates that he and Oswald enjoyed listening to classical music and Russian culture.  The only time in the decade of the 1950s that Boris Godunov was presented in New Orleans was in two performances on October 10 and October 12, 1957.  Why would McBride lie or be confused about such a mundane experience? 

9 - McBride recalled the exact time when he first met the young man who was to be become his friend when Oswald joined the staff of the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in New Orleans.  When one begins a new friendship, it is relatively easy to recall the circumstances of the first meeting.  As he was writing a formal, sworn affidavit, it would be difficult to imagine that McBride would identify the timeframe of 1957-58, unless he were absolutely certain of the date.

10 - When McBride mentioned that Oswald might have been involved in race riot in Fort Worth, it was Oswald who informed McBride of that incident by letter.  On this point, it is not McBride’s credibility that is stake; rather, it is Oswald’s, as evident in the letter.  The integrity of McBride’s memory is not dependent on a story that Oswald may been embellishing or fabricating, just as he did with some of the tall tales about communism that he told to his friends in New Orleans.  In the period leading up to the “defection” to the Soviet Union in 1959, anything that Oswald said must be taken not only with a grain of salt, but with a shower.


Conclusion
 
Shortly after the assassination on Monday, November 25, 1963, FBI agents paid a visit to the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory where they confiscated the employment records and admonished the staff members not to discuss Oswald with anyone. 

 
The FBI and the Warren Commission had a major problem with McBride’s testimony because it conflicted with official Marine records and multiple Marine eyewitnesses that placed Oswald in the Far East during this period.  As a result, the FBI simply cut off an investigation of Oswald in New Orleans in 1957-58. 
 
It would have been easy to locate the records of the New Orleans astronomy club to verify the time Oswald participated.  But the FBI did nothing.  It would also have been easy for the FBI to question other eyewitnesses at the Pfisterer lab to either refute or validate McBride’s testimony.  But not a single Pfisterer employee or manager was called before the Warren Commission.  Every employment record from Pfisterer that had been commandeered by the FBI vanished, including payroll records, W-2 forms, canceled checks, and tax forms. 

In the absence of documentation, we must rely on the eyewitnesses to resolve this case study.  With the exception of William Wulf, every eyewitness described above has a clear and distinct memory of 1957-58 as the time when they knew Oswald in New Orleans.  As a result, the preponderance of the evidence supports the sworn testimony of Palmer McBride that Oswald was residing in New Orleans in late 1957 to early 1958.


James


P.S.  For those interested in hearing Palmer McBride in his own words, the following is a letter that he composed to a JFK researcher who attempted to discredit him.  McBride defends his recall of the 1957-58 timeframe in this letter, dated March 10, 1999:


harveyandlee dot net / Palmer_McBride dot pdf

[Your forum regulations do not permit me to list URLs until a seven-day period into my membership]
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 9:03 am
Thank you for the reply, James.

Sorry about the forum rule on links but it is to discourages people joining just so they can spam.

Here is the link:  
http://harveyandlee.net/Palmer_McBride.pdf

Historical research should have some scientific underpinning. I rely on this.
https://explorable.com/null-hypothesis

Armstrong never attempted to use this method.

I have effectively attempted to do it for him and failed - and failure of course means that the null hypothesis stands.

Armstrong's failures in the case of McBride include a failure to address the witnesses for Oswald being in New Orleans and at Pfisterer in an earlier period than McBride claimed. I previously listed those witnesses.

His other main failure was in not using the clues given in Oswald's letter in order to correctly date it. The one big clue is the Fort Worth riots. As I have shown, there were indeed riots in Fort Worth at the time Oswald officially moved there in Late August/early September 1956. I was unable to find any evidence of any riots for the same period in 1958. The null hypothesis stands again. In fact, unless you can find evidence of Fort Worth riots for Aug/Sep 1958, McBride as a witness for two Oswalds, is dead in the water.

A few other observations: The fact that McBride was persuaded by Lifton to change his mind and then persuaded by Armstrong to flip back again, really only demonstrates how eager to please, or easily manipulated McBride was - and it was demonstrated in one other way - McBride allowing Armstrong to convince him that he had discussed Sputnik with Oswald when in fact, that was never stated to the FBI. All that was stated was that they had discussed Soviet success in space. I once again did Armstrong's job by testing the null - and again couldn't disprove it, There was in reality, a constant flow of stories in the mid 1950s about Soviet space success before Sputnik was ever launched.

As for the opera... we only have Armstrong's word that so few performances of it were conducted in New Orleans. We also need to bear in mind that this was not even thought important enough for McBride to mention to the FBI. In any case, there is more than one possibility:

McBride went to the opera with another friend at the time he said; Armstrong was wrong about the number of times the opera played; there were amateur productions of it performed and not listed in records because it was performed at a different venue.

The Fort Worth riots in fact, prove one of those must be true, assuming McBride didn't make the whole story up.

I note you do not seem any more concerned about disproving the null than Armstrong was. 

Just as there are rules for debate, so there are rules for research.

I wonder then, if you can explain the alternative science in yours and Armstrong's methodology?

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Follow-up Response to Greg: Case Study #1: 1957-58: One Oswald is in New Orleans and one Oswald is in Japan

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:49 am
Greg,

If seven eyewitnesses (many of whom are testifying under oath) have clear and distinct memories of Oswald in a specific time and place, then the weight of the evidence must be in favor of those eyewitnesses.

You are attempting an unpersuasive counterargument about a set of eyewitnesses who knew Oswald in New Orleans at a previous time, but do not recall his presence in the period of 1957-58.  But it doesn’t follow that simply because they were unaware of him in the latter period, that he was not actually residing there at that time.

The ball is in your court to refute the testimony of those seven eyewitnesses who testified that Oswald was in New Orleans in 1957-58.  And it will not be sufficient merely to write them all off in a single stroke by saying that they all have poor memories, simply because their words do not suit your purposes.


James


P.S.  Again, the “race riots” issue in Fort Worth is a red herring with no relevance to the evidence placing Oswald in New Orleans in 1957-58.  You are taking Oswald’s words on faith that he had witnessed a race riot on school grounds in Fort Worth.  Oswald's words in that letter sound to me like the same braggadocio that he was displaying with his buddies in New Orleans when he was spouting off in favor of communism and got booted out of the house by the father of William Wulf.  As Wulf informed the Warren Commission, Oswald “was a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism.”
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 1:24 pm
James Norwood wrote:Greg,

If seven eyewitnesses (many of whom are testifying under oath) have clear and distinct memories of Oswald in a specific time and place, then the weight of the evidence must be in favor of those eyewitnesses.

You are attempting an unpersuasive counterargument about a set of eyewitnesses who knew Oswald in New Orleans at a previous time, but do not recall his presence in the period of 1957-58.  But it doesn’t follow that simply because they were unaware of him in the latter period, that he was not actually residing there at that time.

The ball is in your court to refute the testimony of those seven eyewitnesses who testified that Oswald was in New Orleans in 1957-58.  And it will not be sufficient merely to write them all off in a single stroke by saying that they all have poor memories, simply because their words do not suit your purposes.


James


P.S.  Again, the “race riots” issue in Fort Worth is a red herring with no relevance to the evidence placing Oswald in New Orleans in 1957-58.  You are taking Oswald’s words on faith that he had witnessed a race riot on school grounds in Fort Worth.  Oswald's words in that letter sound to me like the same braggadocio that he was displaying with his buddies in New Orleans when he was spouting off in favor of communism and got booted out of the house by the father of William Wulf.  As Wulf informed the Warren Commission, Oswald “was a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism.” 
James,

Fairclough never testified under oath. I believe she was found by Armstrong in the 1990s?

Gehrke never said what you claim he said. I think you may have gotten your claim from Armstrong without checking, a mistake many of his disciples make, but which I had hoped you had avoided. He quite clearly states he has no memory of Oswald whatsoever. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95625&relPageId=101

Vance is gone as well, for the same reason as above. Is adamant he never met Oswald.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=74915#relPageId=5&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=74915#relPageId=6&tab=page

Hartwell as above. Involved in the club 55-56 - no memory of Oswald and had access to the records of the club and found no membership for Oswald
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=328&tab=page

Wulf: James you made a song and dance by stressing that "many had testified under oath" but when you actually DO have someone who testified under oath, you make an excuse as to why he testified incorrectly, but got it right decades later for... yup... Armstrong, the Witness Whisperer... Wulf is OUT by your own stated standards of "under oath".

Fiorello - here, you are accepting HEARSAY in a McBride letter over what is in the FBI report - which clearly states that Fiorello worked with Oswald at Pfisterer in 1956.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477&relPageId=21

After the dust settles, you are left with Fairclough

I am sure you must be aware of the myriad studies showing that reliance on witness memory is fraught with problems?

Here is just one of countless such studies
https://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

You not only rely on witnesses, you appear to have a preference for those interviewed decades later by a heavily invested Two Oswald partisan. 

The witnesses I used, and that Armstrong ignored, all recalled Oswald during the correct time frame. To suggest these witnesses continued to live and work and go to school in the same areas and hang with the same crowds and simply never noticed Oswald after a particular date, is, imo, a statement without merit. In any case some of them actually recalled Oswald moving in 1956. 

Also, your attempt to get inside Oswald's mind by suggesting he made up the riots is completely evidence-free, and frankly sounding like desperation.  

I will ask again, if you eschew disproving the null hypothesis as a valid way forward, can you tell me what method you use in its stead? 

You are on a severely leaking raft, James. I am offering a sincere chance for you to get off it. I wanted to debate you because you are quite obviously the brightest of the H & L bunch and have shown before that you are capable of recognizing bad ideas and abandoning them (I am referring of course to Cinque and the OIC). 

The alternatives are we can keep going. Or we can just stop here.


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:50 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : moderated)

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Response to Greg: Case Study #2: Fall 1954: One Oswald is attending school in Fort Worth while a second Oswald is attending school in New Olreans

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 1:46 pm
James Norwood wrote:In fall, 1954, one Oswald is attending school at Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth while another Oswald is attending Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans.  While the Stripling records were confiscated and lost by the FBI, the vice-principal recalled surrendering the records to FBI.  Students recalled Oswald attending Stripling and residing across the street from the school at 2230 Thomas Place.  Even Robert Oswald informed the Warren Commission that his younger brother attended Stripling.  As students at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans vividly recall another Oswald boy attending school in fall 1954, we have another body of conflicting evidence placing two Oswalds in two locations at the same time.

Greg,

The Stripling case study is important because if Oswald attended this school in Fort Worth for even a single day in fall 1954, there is a conflict with the records that place another Oswald boy concurrently at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  As it turns out, there is overwhelming evidence that Oswald was indeed at student at Stripling in the academic year 1954-55.

In your critique, I was surprised that you dealt with the evidence by attempting to besmirch the character of the vice-principal, Frank Kudlaty.  This man’s only act was to surrender the school records to the FBI, after receiving instructions from his supervisor on the morning of November 23, 1963.  I am especially confused about why Jack White has any relevance to the Stripling evidence.  It is my understanding that photographer Jack White attended college with Kudlaty at TCU.  But, so what?  Mr. White also worked in the same building in Fort Worth as Edwin Ekdahl, yet there was nothing sinister about his association with either Kudlaty or with Ekdahl.  In the video interview, Kudlaty explains the simple transaction that occurred:  “Two gentlemen came in, showed me identification that they were FBI agents.  I gave them the records.  And the best I remember, one of them did open the envelope and kind of looked at it.  They thanked me and they left.”  (video interview of Frank Kudlaty on youtube)   

Here are my main points in rebuttal to your critique:

1 - Followers of this debate may view the Frank Kudlaty interview on youtube, in order to make up their own minds about the integrity of his character.  In the interview, Mr. Kudlaty describes how he collected and surrendered the school records to the FBI, as requested, on the Saturday immediately following the assassination.  After that, the Stripling records for Oswald in 1954-55 were never seen again.  A point that is missed in your critique is the widespread feeling of trust in the American government in 1963.  Kudlaty handed over the documents to the FBI agents with the implicit trust that the file would eventually be returned to the school.  He felt no need to make copies because to him the matter seemed so routine.

2 - There are multiple eyewitnesses who recall Oswald having attended Stripling.  A student named Francetta Schubert may also be seen in a video interview on youtube.  It would have been impossible for Francetta to have confused Lee Harvey Oswald with his brother Robert, as you suggest in your critique.  Robert was much older than his younger brother and graduated from Stripling long before Francetta Schubert was a student at that school.  As noted by Francetta, “I only saw him [Lee Harvey Oswald] for a short time at the beginning of my eighth grade year at Stripling, which would be the 1954-55 school year.”  (video interview of Francetta Schubert on youtube)

3 -  I am puzzled about your point concerning Robert Oswald.  In addition to his Warren Commission testimony, Robert Oswald spoke publicly on two occasions about his younger brother attending Stripling.  Shortly after the alleged “defection,” Robert told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram on October 29, 1959, that his brother attended Stripling Junior High School.  And, in the same newspaper on June 3, 1962, at a time when Oswald was returning from Minsk, Robert Oswald indicated the younger Oswald “attended Stripling Junior High School and Arlington Heights High School about a year before he enlisted in the Marines.”  On the third occasion, he curiously told the Warren Commission that his brother attended Stripling in the year 1952.  Of course, that year was inaccurate because in spring 1952, Oswald was attending West Ridglea, and in fall 1952, he was attending school in New York.

 
4 -  Richard Galindo, the principal at Stripling in the early 1990s, informed researcher John Armstrong that it was “common knowledge" that Lee Harvey Oswald was a student at his school.  (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, 97)

5 – Mark Summers was a physical education instructor at Stripling Junior High School, where he taught for ten years, beginning in September, 1950.  This was one year after Robert Oswald had completed his studies at Stripling and graduated in 1949.  Summers recalled that Lee Harvey Oswald was one of his students his gym classes.  Summers could not have been mistaking Robert for Lee Harvey. (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, 98)

6 – Bobby Pitts was a student at Arlington Heights High School, who resided at 2224 Thomas Place, which was next door to the small duplex at 2220 Thomas Place where young Oswald resided with Marguerite in fall 1954.  Though the two boys never became friends, Pitts recalled that Oswald was his neighbor and that Lee Harvey would stand on the porch at his home, watching the other boys play touch football.  (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, 103)

7 – Douglas Gann was a student in the same ninth grade class as Lee Harvey Oswald at Stripling in fall, 1954.  Gann recalled attending classes with Lee Harvey, who would occasionally shoot baskets after school.  Like Bobby Pitts, Gann recalled that Oswald lived across the street at 2220 Thomas Place.  In the year 1954, there was no possibility that Gann would have mistaken Lee Harvey for Robert Oswald.  (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, 103)



Summary

In addition to the erratic testimony of Robert Oswald, a total of six eyewitnesses (Frank Kudlaty, Francetta Schubert, Richard Galindo, Mark Summers, Bobby Pitts, and Douglas Gann) exhibit clear and distinct memories of Lee Harvey Oswald attending Stripling Junior High School and residing across the street from the school in fall 1954.  More witnesses may be forthcoming.  In this case study, the preponderance of evidence points to Oswald attending school at Stripling Junior High School in fall 1954.  


Conclusion

An essential point that is omitted from your critique concerns the role of the FBI in gathering evidence of Oswald’s school and work records.  In New Orleans, the FBI requisitioned Oswald’s work records from Pfisterer Dental Laboratory, then lost them.  In Fort Worth, the FBI took the Stripling school records, which also disappeared.  The matter of Oswald’s enrollment as a student at Stripling could be easily resolved by the school records.  Instead, those records have suspiciously vanished from history.  In the week following the assassination, the FBI should have been investigating the murder of the thirty-fifth president of the United States.  Instead, the valuable time of the FBI agents was being spent in rounding up employment and school records, which, at face value, had no bearing on either the guilt or innocence of a suspect who had been shot to death on television.  In the immediate aftermath of the murders of John F. Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald, a major area of suspicion in the suppression of the truth should not be directed towards honest citizens like Frank Kudlaty, but to the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the United States government.


Addendum


A.  For those who may doubt the integrity of Frank Kudlaty or the authenticity of the Kudlaty video interview referenced above, a journalist named Joe Nick Patoski became interested in the evidence for the two Oswalds and paid a visit to the home of Kudlaty in 1998, in preparation for the article he published in the November, 1998 issue of Texas Monthly.   In that interview, Kudlati verifies that he surrendered the school records to the FBI agents.  He also adds that when he glanced at the records, he noticed that Oswald’s grades were low.  As a distinguished educator, Kudlati was skeptical that Oswald could have taught himself Russian.

For the Patoski article, enter these key words into a Google search:  PATOSKI, TWO OSWALDS, TEXAS MONTHLY


B.  Another testimonial on behalf of Kudlaty comes from one of the most meticulous of JFK researchers, James DiEugenio, who writes the following in the second edition of his book Destiny Betrayed:  “Kudlaty’s credentials are beyond reproach.  After leaving Stripling, he became Superintendent of Schools in Waco, Texas.  He stayed there until his retirement in 1987.  When the State Department selected a group of school administrators to advise the Chinese government on education, he was one of those chosen to attend….One of the most disturbing aspects of Kudlaty’s testimony is that the FBI had to have known Oswald attended Stripling ten years previous.  Or else how could they have called Weldon Lucas the morning after the assassination.  Yet, this information is not in the Warren Commission.” (James DiEugnio, Destiny Betrayed, second edition (New York:  Skyhorse Publishing, 2012), 124.

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Reminder of Agreed-Upon Debate Rules

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:00 pm
I have no idea what you are a professor of, but the title implies high standards of logic and science. I will therefore ask again, if you eschew disproving the null hypothesis as a valid way forward, can you tell me what method you use in its stead?

Greg,


As you know, you agreed to a set rules for this debate.  One those rules related to decorum and the issue of casting aspersions on your fellow debater.

To refresh your memory, here is rule #3:

“(3)  The strict policy of the debate is that no aspersions or personal invective will be tolerated.  By “aspersions,” we mean questioning the intelligence or the professional reputation of the debater.  By “personal invective,” we mean any insulting, demeaning, abusive, or hurtful remarks (even suggested by innuendo) that impugn the personal character of the debater.  If any such language enters into the conversation from either of the two debaters or any third parties posting on the thread, then either one of the two debaters has the right to peremptorily withdraw from the conversation since the ground rules have been violated.  The purpose of the debate is 100% discussion pertaining to historical inquiry and 0% about the debaters themselves.”

At this point, you have two options:

A.  You can issue an apology and send a request to Vanessa to delete your previous post.

or

B.  The debate is hereby ended.

I've been enjoying the debate, and I believe that our discussions of the case studies are invaluable for readers to see the two different perspectives.  But we did agree on a strict set of rules of engagement that have now been violated.

If I have not received (a) an apology and (b) a retraction of your previous comment within twenty-four hours, the debate is over.


James
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:28 pm
James Norwood wrote:
I have no idea what you are a professor of, but the title implies high standards of logic and science. I will therefore ask again, if you eschew disproving the null hypothesis as a valid way forward, can you tell me what method you use in its stead?

Greg,


As you know, you agreed to a set rules for this debate.  One those rules related to decorum and the issue of casting aspersions on your fellow debater.

To refresh your memory, here is rule #3:

“(3)  The strict policy of the debate is that no aspersions or personal invective will be tolerated.  By “aspersions,” we mean questioning the intelligence or the professional reputation of the debater.  By “personal invective,” we mean any insulting, demeaning, abusive, or hurtful remarks (even suggested by innuendo) that impugn the personal character of the debater.  If any such language enters into the conversation from either of the two debaters or any third parties posting on the thread, then either one of the two debaters has the right to peremptorily withdraw from the conversation since the ground rules have been violated.  The purpose of the debate is 100% discussion pertaining to historical inquiry and 0% about the debaters themselves.”

At this point, you have two options:

A.  You can issue an apology and send a request to Vanessa to delete your previous post.

or

B.  The debate is hereby ended.

I've been enjoying the debate, and I believe that our discussions of the case studies are invaluable for readers to see the two different perspectives.  But we did agree on a strict set of rules of engagement that have now been violated.

If I have not received (a) an apology and (b) a retraction of your previous comment within twenty-four hours, the debate is over.


James
James,

I am sure Vanessa is keeping an eye on the debate, but it is in working hours here at present. 

I am not inclined to give her any instructions one way or another, nor should she - or I - be influenced by any ultimatums. She is to act independently of both of us - that I believe is how it should be.

Whatever she decides, I will abide by.

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:33 pm
Hi James and Greg

I've taken it upon myself to delete the comment in question. I think it was interpreted as casting aspersions on James' academic qualifications.

Can we take the heat out of this please? No using words like 'silly' etc. Make it as bland and unemotional as possible. Just stick to the facts.
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:36 pm
VanessaL wrote:Hi James and Greg

I've taken it upon myself to delete the comment in question. I think it was interpreted as casting aspersions on James' academic qualifications.

Can we take the heat out of this please? No using words like 'silly' etc. Make it as bland and unemotional as possible. Just stick to the facts.
Gee whiz, shouldn't you be at work? 

Okay, James, I apologize. There was no intent to cast any aspersions on your qualifications, although I accept you genuinely took it that way.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:49 pm
Thanks Greg

I'm actually right in the middle of Gazettals and if that gets awry heaven knows what could happen.

Please curb the pejoratives.
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:30 pm
VanessaL wrote:Thanks Greg

I'm actually right in the middle of Gazettals and if that gets awry heaven knows what could happen.

If things go awry with the muster, I'm guessing we could have feral Gazettals running rampant through the streets.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:42 pm
Robert on Lee at Stripling 

Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.

In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then. 
Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52? 

Robert Oswald clearly started out making an assumption that Lee had started at Stripling because he had turned 13.

That assumption was wrong. Lee did not turn 13 until moving to New York.

But as his testimony wore on, as so often happens, an assumption magically transformed into a fact.

According to you, Stripling was a huge no-go zone. After all, the FBI singled it out as the only school to raid and confiscate - yet Robert goes unchallenged in his testimony. It's like, in this cover-up, the WC and FBI are totally out of sync.


James Norwood wrote:A point that is missed in your critique is the widespread feeling of trust in the American government in 1963.  Kudlaty handed over the documents to the FBI agents with the implicit trust that the file would eventually be returned to the school.  He felt no need to make copies because to him the matter seemed so routine.
Then Kudlaty is at odds with every other school. All any other schools handed over were COPIES, and if copies were unavailable, all they could do was take notes from the original.



And those copies were obtained by Dallas Police on behalf of Wagoner Carr's investigation and then sent to the WC

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10773#relPageId=2&tab=page

In other words, obtained through proper legal channels. 

Kudlaty's story is a nonsense. And that makes his 50 year friendship  with White an issue. If it was not an issue, Jack White had no reason to suddenly try and distance himself from Kudlaty when questioned about him, and the friendship would have been noted in the book - which is the correct way to deal with potential conflicts of interest - declare them at the start.

As for all of the 1954 Stripling witnesses... all roads lead to Armstrong.

The whole case is based on people interviewed by Armstrong.  Isn't he blessed that he never once interviewed someone who ran counter to his theories? He kept striking gold with every witness. Not even the WC had that success rate. 

Reliance on witnesses, as I have already stated, is a recipe for the poorest possible case.

And as with Fort Worth, your list of witnesses for Oswald in NO during 1958 falls apart at the first hurdle and it is reduced to another Armstrong witness recruit, Linda Fairclough.

Lastly, your methodology remains unexplained (I have explained mine) - and worse, you have reverted to an appeal to authority in citing the opinions of Jim di Eugenio as part of your evidence brief.

If we are going to have rules of decorum, we also should have rules regarding being able to properly support the evidence used.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 7:41 pm
Unfortunately, Dr Norwood has chosen not to return to the thread. He is welcome to do so at any time.

Greg, would you like to make a final post addressing any outstanding issues?

Then I think we will close this thread if that is okay with everyone.
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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:16 pm
It seems to me that formal or even semi-formal debate should be bound by more than just rules of decorum; there should have rules around citations, the proper weighing of evidence, and a complete absence of logical fallacies.

If he decides to return, those things need to be agreed upon.

The outstanding matters of debate I think, were the Odio incident, and Oswald's ability to learn Russian.

Naturally, I'm happy to expand that if wished, or if I missed anything.

At this point, I don'r think I have anything to add to those items already discussed.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:57 am
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

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Re: Lee Harvey Oswald: The Legend and the Truth

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