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    BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

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    BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by greg parker on Fri 01 Dec 2017, 5:03 pm

    This thread had to be split because it became so big. This is therefore just a brief overview and it is highly recommended that anyone interested in exploring the subject matters further, should visit the original threads now pinned in the chronology forums.

    It started with discoveries in the interview transcripts of different TSBD employees produced by the HSCA. Edward Shields for instance told investigators that when Buell drove into the car-park on the morning of Nov 22, he (Buell) was on his own. The car-park was over by the Houston St warehouse. 

    SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
    DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
    SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
    DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
    SHIELDS: Yes.
    DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
    SHIELDS: No, I didn’t.


    One of the oddities about this is that it was a Friday morning. According to the official story, Oswald only rode to work with Frazier on Monday morning, so why would anyone be inquiring about Oswald not being with Frazier on a Friday?

    Maybe because Oswald usually rode with him daily. Jarman told the HSCA investigator that Oswald was not just a Monday morning rider with Frazier.

    When asked if he associated Oswald with anyone, Jarman replied “I can’t think of the dude’s name – the one that brings – brought him to work all the time.” Thus, Mick came to believe that Frazier had not driven Lee to work at all that morning – that the whole story was a fabrication to get Oswald into that building with a package in his hand.

    A review of some of the evidence tends to support this thesis:

    The initial point to note is that the whole period is made up of a series of (alleged) firsts.

    ·         The first time Oswald arrives at the Paine’s on a Thursday
    ·         The first time Lee wants to take something other than lunch to work
    ·         The first time Frazier is running late
    ·         The first time Oswald is not picked up at the Paines, but walks to the Randles
    ·         The first time Lee walks 50 yards ahead of Frazier from the car-park to the warehouse.

    All those firsts incrementally add to the appearance of Oswald’s guilt.

    Among the myriad problems: every neighbor between the Paine house and the Randle house was interviewed as to whether they had seen Oswald that morning walking past to get his lift. None of them had. But just picture what we are expected to believe here anyway – the police on several occasions described the package as “rifle-shaped” or as looking like a rifle case.  Yet despite that, Oswald supposedly risked being seen carrying it to the Randle residence.


    One of those neighbors, Mr. Schneider, did pass on some hearsay to the effect that another neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, had seen Lee get a lift that morning with Bill Randle – Wes’s brother-in-law.  Moreover, Roberts had apparently added that Oswald had a package big enough to carry a rifle with him.

    Bill had driven that day to Austin on a job for his employer – his brother Marvin. He had taken with him another employee, Barry Caster. Caster lived on Shady Grove Rd over 2 miles from the Randle house, so it seems likely that Bill would pick his co-worker up. There was certainly no suggestion that Caster had driven to the Randle residence and left his car there. In short, there is no evidence that the person Mrs. Roberts saw drive off that morning with Randle was Caster and not Oswald.  It is possible then, that Bill did drive Oswald on some pretext, picked Caster up on the way and took a slight detour on the trip to Austin to drop Oswald off.

    As Mick put it, “what sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? We are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave Gave Oswald a lift with a package because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall” [sic]

    Let’s now return to the sack.

    According to the official story, Oswald went up to Frazier’s car and was able to put the package on the back seat as the door never locked properly. He is allegedly seen before that, heading to the car with it by Linnie-Mae Randle.  When Frazier and Oswald get in the car, Frazier notices the package and asks Oswald what it is and is reminded that Lee had come a day early to pick up curtain rods.  We are expected to believe here, that Frazier very well remembered that he was taking Oswald to work that morning – but had completely forgotten why – that is – Lee coming for the rods. This is despite Linnie Mae confirming that Wes had told her about the rods being picked up.

    The memory lapses continue post-assassination with Linne-Mae now forgetting anything about the rods and instead, according to Det. Rose, going to the Paine house and telling Det. Adamcik all about the suspicious bag Oswald was carrying.  That is the actual wording in Rose’s report – that the sack made her “suspicious”.


    We are really left with 3 choices regarding Buell and Linnie-Mae
    1.       They told the truth and everything more-or-less happened as they said it did
    2.       They changed the story from what really happened to incriminate Oswald and they themselves had been part of the frame
    3.       Very little if any of it happened as claimed and Buell and Linnie-Mae were co-opted (or otherwise agreed between themselves post-assassination) to agree to a different version of events
    It is slightly odd that Det. Adamcik for instance, made no mention of talking to Linnie-Mae in his initial statement. As above, that came via a report made well after the event by Det. Rose. It is odd because her alleged statement that the package made her suspicious would seem a rather important point for Adamcik to include in his initial report.  However, by the time of his Warren Commission testimony, his memory had improved enough to be able to recount the episode.  Unfortunately, Linnie-Mae herself was not asked about this when she had her turn before the commissioners.

    That she talked to the police after they arrived at the Paine’s is beyond question. Apart from the “suspicious” bag, she also told them that they could find Buell at Parkland Hospital visiting his step-father. In saying this, she sent the police to the wrong hospital, though they eventually found him at the Irving Medical Clinic where he was placed under arrest.   

    Mick believed that sending the police to Parkland was simply to buy Wes some time.

    To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Randle residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Buell and Linnie Mae. Linnie-Mae reported Oswald carrying a “suspicious” bag even though she had previously been informed that Oswald was picking up curtain rods. Just the fact that he was in Irving on a Friday morning, which was an alleged break from regular habit, should have caused her to recall why. Linnie-Mae then sent police on a wild goose chase looking for her brother. This in turn left a significant amount of time unaccounted for in Frazier’s time line. Added to that we have hearsay evidence regarding Bill Randle taking Oswald to work that morning with a large package, with no sign of that being investigated – yet the FBI that night is searching for the origins of the scope in the names of Oswald or “Randall”. If this lift to work did happen, there is no reason not to believe that this package was Randle’s and related to his job on Austin. He may have simply passed it to Oswald to put on the back seat. Or Any number of other scenarios may explain it. The point is, we do not know because there are no records pertaining to it.

    Does the size of the bag described by Buell and Linnie exonerate them from any roles they may have played? Mick made the point that had Frazier described the bag as being big enough for the rifle, he was in grave danger of being charged as an accomplice – which almost happened anyway. The size of the bag was immaterial to the police case. The police just needed a bag witness. They got two for the price of one. They also had his alleged rifle missing from its place in the Paine garage, a statement that he claimed the bag contained curtain rods – and a statement that no curtain rods were missing from the Paine house, nor any found at the TSBD. The size described by Buell and Linnie Mae could now be dismissed as just the usual witness error on an estimation of dimensions. Classic win/win.

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by BC_II on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 8:14 am

    Hey Greg, I've been having a field day reading so many older topics here. I am not allowed access to the original "Where's your rider" topic, which I'd kill to read from start to finish. Is there any other way? Thanks!

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by barto on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 8:22 am

    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1176-did-frazier-indirectly-identify-prayer-man

    The other thread you are talking about (the big 'un) is in maintenance as we speak, it will be making a re-appearance in the near future.

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Stan Dane on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 8:42 am

    BC_II wrote:Hey Greg, I've been having a field day reading so many older topics here. I am not allowed access to the original "Where's your rider" topic, which I'd kill to read from start to finish. Is there any other way? Thanks!

    BC-II:

    The "Where’s your Rider?" threads, Part A and B, are now back up in the forum, located in the JFK ASSASSINATION CHRONOLOGIES "Sept 1963 - 24 Nov 1963" section.

    Enjoy!
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by barto on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 10:04 am

    Thx for sorting Stan!

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by BC_II on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 7:32 am

    Oh you guys are the best. Can't WAIT to devour all of it lol. Thanks Stan!

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy on Mon 23 Apr 2018, 1:35 pm

    SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.


    DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?


    SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.


    DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."


    SHIELDS: Yes.


    DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?


    SHIELDS: No, I didn’t.


    In my opinion Wes is caught in another lie here. The Shanklin report of Givens whereabouts on Friday morning lines up perfectly with what I believe actually transpired in that parking lot Friday regarding Wes and Lee's separate arrival to work.In the Shanklin report Givens is said to be in the Domino room at 7.45-7.50am and has sighted lee Oswald in there at that time.


    Then in the Shields interview for the HSCA it is claimed Shields and Given's are at the Northern warehouse at about 8.00am. This is where Shields remembers seeing Frazier on his own without Oswald.


    In my opinion the timing does not compute for Frazier's claim that he dropped Oswald off at the building.


    The timeline for Oswald sitting in the Domino Room well ahead of Fraziers arrival matches perfectly however with Shanklin's report and Shields interview in my opinion.


    Think about that. 
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 03 May 2018, 5:13 pm

    Really need to take another look at having the HSCA interview with Frazier analysed, see if we can't get it cleaned up so we can confirm some of this stuff.

    Researcher Ian Lloyd points out a glaring contradiction between Frazier's HSCA interview (III- and his Commission testimony (II, p. 221):

    FRAZIER: No, I didn't know that he'd been caught. But I will tell you this. I knew that he had the rifle.
    MORIARTY: Hm-hmm.
    FRAZIER: He did. And I said to myself, I said, 'Oh, my God.' That was the first thing right there on the [Depository] steps.
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by barto on Sun 13 May 2018, 6:26 am


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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by barto on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 3:56 pm


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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by barto on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 4:16 pm

    Mick Purdy wrote:Really need to take another look at having the HSCA interview with Frazier analysed, see if we can't get it cleaned up so we can confirm some of this stuff.

    Researcher Ian Lloyd points out a glaring contradiction between Frazier's HSCA interview (III- and his Commission testimony (II, p. 221):

    FRAZIER: No, I didn't know that he'd been caught. But I will tell you this. I knew that he had the rifle.
    MORIARTY: Hm-hmm.
    FRAZIER: He did. And I said to myself, I said, 'Oh, my God.' That was the first thing right there on the [Depository] steps.

    He didn't know did he?
    Sounds a tad different in the newspaper article above......

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 19 Jul 2018, 5:59 pm

    Buellism.
    "I knew that he had the rifle"

    Bart he shit his panties when then announced an Enfield was the murder weapon.
    His 'knowledge' of Lee's rifle is 50yrs late.
    And that stain is permanently on the chevy seat.



    Cheers, Ed
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 20 Jul 2018, 11:20 am

    FRAZIER: No, I didn't know that he'd been caught. But I will tell you this. I knew that he had the rifle.
    MORIARTY: Hm-hmm.
    FRAZIER: He did. And I said to myself, I said, 'Oh, my God.' That was the first thing right there on the [Depository] steps.
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 21 Jul 2018, 7:28 pm

    Yes sir, right there on the steps.
    He thought Lee had a curtain rods... nope a rifle. Think about that Mick. When did he know this?
    Yet he knew he would an accomplice and went and hid in the basement.
    I dont know if I buy it, but it works well with other actions.
    Side note: Did he go inside after Lee did?
    Cheers, Ed
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Vinny on Sat 21 Jul 2018, 9:47 pm

    From his Garrison testimony.

    Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald during that time that you were on the steps in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
    A: No, sir, I did not.
    Q: Did you go back into the building after the presidential motorcade went under the triple underpass? Did you go back into the Texas School Book Depository?
    A: After the shots were fired?
    Q: Right.
    Q: Yes. I stayed there at first and talked to several of the people who worked there in the building. Then some of them started going back inside so I went back inside with some of the others.

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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy Yesterday at 12:15 pm

    Ed. Ledoux wrote:Yes sir, right there on the steps.
    He thought Lee had a curtain rods... nope a rifle.   Think about that Mick. When did he know this?
    Yet he knew he would an accomplice and went and hid in the basement.
    I dont know if I buy it, but it works well with other actions.
    Side note: Did he go inside after Lee did?  
    Cheers, Ed
    Ed,

    He knew all along Lee had a rifle instead of curtain rods in my opinion, his forever changing BS stories of the day does it for me. It would not surprise me in the slightest if he was the guy who took that rifle into the building to play his part in setting up the patsy. And I'm not buying into the 19 year old kid routine either. Texas 1963.

    All of this goes a long way in possibly helping us understand his sometimes bizarre interviews he's given and his at times very odd recollections of the Thursday and Friday surrounding the assassination and Lees movements etc.

    Is he just the poor dumb bloke in the wrong place at the wrong time? I've never thought so and I've read nothing to change my mind on this. In fact the more I read about Wesley the more inclined I'm to thinking he was a prime mover for that Thursday / Friday in having Lee set up.

    Of course I could be way off the mark, that's true. But it's been all of the little nuggets I've found here and there, little tell tale signs of his lies and deceptions which I believe point to a much more sinister motive other than just giving your buddy a lift to work.

    I'll keep thinking Ed, Who knows what Buell did immediately afterward, there's so many different versions from his own lips of what he did. He was missing, or hiding for hours.
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy Yesterday at 12:28 pm

    Yes Ed,

    Buell worked it all out on those steps. Nope not curtain rods, it was a rifle. He remembered right there on those steps. Good memory Wesley's got. Pity he can't remember whom was standing a mere foot or so to his right. Oops! Can't have been Lee standing there he had the rifle. Right?
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Mick Purdy Yesterday at 12:36 pm

    Vinny wrote:From his Garrison testimony.

    Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald during that time that you were on the steps in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
    A: No, sir, I did not.

    Q: Did you go back into the building after the presidential motorcade went under the triple underpass? Did you go back into the Texas School Book Depository?
    A: After the shots were fired?
    Q: Right.
    Q: Yes. I stayed there at first and talked to several of the people who worked there in the building. Then some of them started going back inside so I went back inside with some of the others.
    Great question and I wonder why it was asked, I'm not sold on the doorman (Cinque) excuse for this line of questioning either. Why was this put to Frazier? Had someone seen evidence of Oswald on the steps, had someone seen something to provoke such a question.

    For those who subscribe to PM = Oswald then Buell's answer meant that he perjured himself in the exchange.
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    Re: BWF Where's Your Rider Reprise

    Post by Vinny Yesterday at 9:16 pm

    Yes I wonder if Garrison or someone on his staff suspected that Oswald was out there on the steps.

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