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Von Pein: Witch-Finder General

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Von Pein: Witch-Finder General

Post by greg parker on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 12:43 pm

Greg Parker wrote:Marvin Johnson TOOK Baker's affidavit. I believe that means he wrote it based on Baker responding to questions from Johnson.

David von Pein wrote:I don't think that's the way an affidavit works. (I never thought it was anyway.) The way I have always thought an "affidavit" worked is ---- The person giving the affidavit is given a piece of paper and he writes down his own account (statement) of what happened--in his or her own words (without being grilled or interviewed by anybody)--and then that handwritten version is typed up by a DPD or Sheriff's Department clerk to create the final neat typewritten version. And then it gets notarized by a notary public (e.g., Mary Rattan, et al). (It's possible that the handwritten version gets notarized as well, but I'm not positive about that.)

Yes, Marvin Johnson said he "took" Baker's affidavit at City Hall, but I'm not sure that means that Johnson was questioning Baker at all. It could be that Johnson was just THERE when Baker was filling out his written statement, and then Johnson possibly physically took the affidavit into his physical possession and then it made its way into Mary Rattan's hands (the notary public).

I really don't know what the word "took" means in this case. But here are the three HANDWRITTEN pages of Baker's affidavit (below). Can anybody confirm whose handwriting this is? Is it Baker's or Johnson's? The "B" in "M.L. Baker" at the top of page 1 looks somewhat like Baker's own signature that we find on this 9/23/64 statement that Baker initialled and signed, but I'm not 100% sure. Any handwriting experts out there?....

Yep, David is well aware that the handwritten statement taken from Baker by the FBI 9/23/64 was written not by Baker himself, but by Special Agent Burnett. 

Here is what David said about it on his own blog: But it's obvious by looking at the document that it is not in Baker's handwriting (except for his initials and signature). 
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html 

David would like us now to believe that the FBI "takes" affidavits (witness statements made under threat of perjury) by sometimes writing them out themselves, but police only "take" then in the physical sense to deliver to a notary public. 

Greg Parker wrote:As for his [DVP's] nonsense about why not say they saw him run down from the 6th floor? Why place him on only the second floor? Let's look at it as much as we can through the eyes of the cops at the time.

1. Oswald was still alive and would refute any such 6th floor flight.

DVP aka Witch-Finder General wrote:And you actually think that anyone is going to believe the word of the alleged assassin? You must be kidding!

This same kind of "Would Oswald Lie?" argument has cropped up when talking about some of Oswald's other statements that he made while in custody -- such as Oswald claiming he never owned a rifle, and his lie about not knowing anything about the alias "Hidell", and his lie about having never been in Mexico City, and his whopper of a lie when he said "I didn't shoot anybody". Many conspiracy believers seem to think Oswald was being TRUTHFUL in every one of those statements. Naturally, I disagree. Oswald was a Lying Machine on November 22nd and 23rd of 1963. He never stopped lying.

Therefore, WHY on Earth would anyone (a jury or anybody else) start BELIEVING this lying machine named Oswald even if he denied something that WAS, indeed, just made up from whole cloth (like the alternate scenario I proposed earlier about Truly and Baker making up a BETTER lie by saying they had seen Oswald on or near the SIXTH floor, vs. the second floor)?

Look closely at that opening line because it encapsulates every single fiber of the Witch-Finder General, Matthew Hopkins. Hopkins lived by the simple dictum that "witchcraft was crimen exceptum: a crime so foul that all normal legal procedures were superseded."

Indeed, superseded to the point that all that was required was an accusation and a torture-induced confession. 

By 1963 of course, even in Dull-Ass, Texas, some progress had been made in law enforcement requirements. Though in Dull-Ass, not really that much. An accusation and a confession were still the Holy Grails, but psychological games had replaced torture as the path to confession. The accused is always guilty and therefore any denials of guilt must be lies. 

In short, Dull-Ass Police still practiced as Witch-Finder Generals where the odds were fully stacked against the accused, and with this MO protected through tacit acceptance within the Dull-Ass criminal justice system. 
 
There was just one teeny-tiny problem with the Oswald case. He had an alibi and he was sticking to it with no sign of cracking. With a trial looming where Witch-Finder General tactics and the tacit approval thereof would be untenable with the eyes of the world watching, a Plan B was needed. What to do, what to do, what to do... hmmm... he won't confess...we can't go to trial... hmmm... what to do, what to do, what to do...

Oswald's alibi of course, included naming Bill Shelley as being on the steps, naming Junior and Shorty as reentering the building (which we know they did at 12:25), and also stating that a police officer was stationed at the door vetting people with Roy Truly before allowing them to leave - this procedure confirmed through an internal police memo found in the Barefoot Sanders' Report and reproduced in Curry's book. 

Hmmm, What to do, what to do, what to do... 

Cue Ruby the Executioner, followed by Bookhout to rewrite the FBI version of Oswald's claims in which his trip for a coke is changed to post-assassination from the original pre-assassination, with the cop encounter now moved up to the 2nd floor lunch room with that damn coke machine, and with the 2 fellow employees now not just seen re-entering the building, but fine-dining with the accused in the palatial Domino Room - a claim of course, both could and did, truthfully deny. Bye-bye alibi. 

But DVP won't address any of that. He has made his accusations of guilt and accusations of lying and that is all a good Witch-Finder General requires!

Greg Parker wrote:2. Oswald had mentioned getting a coke.

DVP aka Witch-Finder General wrote:So what? Once again (like point #1 above), who cares what the ALLEGED ASSASSIN says? Even in the "Let's Pretend" scenarios that I've been talking about in this discussion, who is going to take ANYTHING uttered by the assassin (or the "alleged" assassin) seriously. An assassin is going to LIE a whole lot of the time. And, as all reasonable people know, Oswald (the Real Assassin) DID lie constantly while he was in custody.

To the Modern Day Witch-Finder General, it is no more than a courtesy to insert the word "alleged" because, in the mind of the Witch-Finder General, it has no legal ramifications whatsoever - certainly no more in his mind than the notion which ensures its use in more enlightened minds - the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law. The Witch-Finder General needs no more than his own circular logic to arrive at his "truth". The accused is a liar because he is guilty. His lack of innocence is proven by his need to lie. Matthew Hopkins spirit lives on in the form of David von Pein! David is unable to even conceive of the possibility that his fellow Witch-Finders in the Dull-Ass police were the fabricators, despite the evidence showing the accused was the truthful one with the only alternatives to that being that the Dull-Ass police themselves, fed LHO information he could not know if he was indeed the 6th floor sniper - or that the accused had crystal balls, and knew how to use them!
 
Greg Parker wrote:3. Oswald had mentioned a cop encounter in or near a vestibule.

DVP aka Witch-Finder General wrote:Once again --- Who cares what Oswald said?!

If all you're going to do is use OSWALD'S own statements in your arguments, then you've already lost. Because the desperate statements made by the guy charged with the murder aren't going to carry much weight with a jury (or anybody).


Yes, as we have already established, your logic is very simple The accused is a liar because he is guilty. His lack of innocence is proven by his need to lie.

Unfortunately for you, this is not Merrey Olde England... or even Sanguine Olde Salem.

Under the eyes of the Enlightened Rest of the World,  the accused continuing to draw breath would mean no solo report by Bookhout with the falsified alibi, and no cribbing by Fritz of that now non-existent falsified alibi. Further, the accused, having his day in court, would be exposed as having no friends in the Dull-Ass police force feeding him information for his actual alibi, and as definitely not being the possessor of crystal balls. 

Greg Parker wrote:4. Baker had told a story of encountering someone on the 3rd or 4th floor who did not match Oswald.

DVP aka Witch-Finder General wrote:But if Marrion Baker was the rotten evil l-i-a-r that you think he was, then (via my alternate scenario) he would have NEVER said he saw anybody on the 3rd or 4th floor at all. He would have said ALL ALONG that he saw Oswald nearer to the sixth floor.

But I guess it depends on exactly WHEN you think Marrion Baker decided to start telling lies. You think he was being completely truthful in his 11/22/63 affidavit, right? It was only LATER that he was strong-armed into telling the "lie" about seeing Oswald on the 2nd floor, correct?

And that's always a nice comfy cop-out for conspiracy theorists to use when they're stuck for something better --- just say the person was "coerced" into changing his or her story. In other words, it couldn't POSSIBLY have been an honest and simple MISTAKE that Marrion L. Baker made in his 11/22/63 affidavit when he said he encountered the man (Oswald) or the "third or fourth floor", instead of saying the correct floor (the second), right? (Even though it couldn't be more obvious that Baker WAS, indeed, unsure as to which floor it was---because he mentioned TWO different floor numbers in his original affidavit. And, quite obviously, he wasn't implying he had an encounter on BOTH of those floors. So at least one of them HAD to be incorrect in the first place.)

Why can't conspiracists accept Marrion Baker's "third or fourth floor" statement for what it so clearly is --- a simple and honest mistake made by a police officer who was in a chaotic and frantic situation within minutes of the President having just been shot, and who was not paying close attention at all to what floor he was standing on when he pointed his gun at Lee Harvey Oswald's stomach in the lunchroom on November 22, 1963?

All of this hand-wringing brought on by your own straw-man argument, is extremely impressive.

I know how enamored you are of knocking down your own straw-men, but the fact is, my position on Baker's first day statement has never wavered from the first glimpse of it back around 2001 or thereabouts. His statement was both accurate and honest. 

Or to put it another way, what I thought in 2001 and for most of the time since, was that he encountered someone else, on a different floor.

The main difference now is that I believe it was someone else, on a different floor -  AND in a different building - a building Baker at that time, wrongly thought still housed the TSBD - the Dal-Tex building.

So no, he was not a "rotten, evil liar" (or even a "rotten, evil l-i-a-r" as preferred by the ed forum censors). He was guilty only of being talked into jumping on board. After all, what did it matter? Oswald was dead.

Greg Parker wrote:Somehow, the cops had to juggle those elements and come up with a single story to explain it all. Truly did not make his first statement until later that night - and it was to the FBI, not DPD. By that time, they had Oswald's alibi and Baker's statement. It is decided to relocate the 3rd or 4th floor encounter to the second floor lunchroom because that is where the coke machine is. It is also the only location apart from the front entrance, where you have any chance of claiming there is a vestibule. Truly made his statement and wrote the name of his secretary (Mrs. Reid) at the bottom of the otherwise typed document. She gives her statement the next day and "confirms" that she sees Oswald walking through the office with a coke post-assassination. Meanwhile, Baker is put on ice and kept well away from the media and only wheeled out again for [his] WC appearance. By then, he has his story straightened out (kind of). Keeping him on ice also helps deep-six his initial statement. After all, it is an internal document and no one is going to leak the contents to the media and sure as hell, Baker is not being let off his leash until he has his mind right!

So that is why they ended up on the second floor. Not ideal, but it was forced upon them as the best compromise that with some fudging on the timing could still make it theoretically possible for Oswald to get down from the 6th.

DVP is in for a rude shock when my stuff on Truly gets posted.

DVP aka Witch-Finder General wrote:Oh, brother. What a big load of craptrap that was.

As we can all see, Greg R. Parker has a very active imagination.

Imagination of course, is the enemy of the Witch-Finder General because it denies the black and white state of his being and thinking. Thus, imagination itself must be cast into the pits of Hell as antithetical to the Witch-Finder General path to "Truth". 

In his heightened state of excitement and anxiety, the Witch-Finder General believes he has nailed me to the stake and lit the kindling. 

The reality is though, he has paid a huge compliment:

Psychology Today wrote:Isn't it great when a study confirms what you already suspected? There's a significant correlation between robust daydreaming and superior intelligence.

Researchers using brain scanning technology found that the "default network," the relatively new buzzword for the daydreaming state, was significantly more active in the "superior intelligence group" than the "average intelligence group." According to the study (link is external), this suggests that the stronger connections displayed in the "functional integration of the default network might be related to individual intelligent performance."

My nonscientific translation of this: while daydreaming, your thoughts are gliding and ricocheting all over the place--past, present, future--accessing all your stored knowledge, memories, experiences, etc. What the study seems to be saying is that these connections--the ricocheting thoughts if you will--appear to be stronger in smarter people. Maybe that's why they can get more out of their daydreaming states of mind. They can dig deeper. This seems to fit nicely with other studies that say that people who can go deeper into daydreaming states are more likely to come away with worthwhile insights.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-daydreaming/201001/the-dynamic-duo-imagination-knowledge

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Von Pein: Witch-Finder General

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:51 pm

Greg,

Like most of the Lone-Nutter crowd, Oswald has already been convicted and no amount of his words or evidence to the contrary can unconvict, him. Their worldview is self-correcting, dictums self-fulfilling, and anything to the contrary is simply noise to their minds.

Scientists build mathematical models to narrow the focus of their search and this tactic of the LNs is essentially the same thing. And with the universe getting smaller and smaller with every discovery, what's not to love?

The findings of the Warren Commission can only be proved correct as the findings of the Warren Commission are used as the LNs starting point. What possible use can they have for anything as insignificant and misleading as "evidence"? The testimony itself proves the very testimony it is used to measure against.

Win-win.

How can one argue with logic (i.e. insanity) like that?

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Re: Von Pein: Witch-Finder General

Post by greg parker on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:27 pm

Terry W. Martin wrote:Greg,

Like most of the Lone-Nutter crowd, Oswald has already been convicted and no amount of his words or evidence to the contrary can unconvict, him. Their worldview is self-correcting, dictums self-fulfilling, and anything to the contrary is simply noise to their minds.

Scientists build mathematical models to narrow the focus of their search and this tactic of the LNs is essentially the same thing. And with the universe getting smaller and smaller with every discovery, what's not to love?

The findings of the Warren Commission can only be proved correct as the findings of the Warren Commission are used as the LNs starting point. What possible use can they have for anything as insignificant and misleading as "evidence"? The testimony itself proves the very testimony it is used to measure against.

Win-win.

How can one argue with logic (i.e. insanity) like that?
Terry,  beautifully put and accurate as always.

And this line should be thrown at the LNers at every opportunity... In LN Land "The testimony itself proves the very testimony it is used to measure against."

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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