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Jack Edwin Dougherty

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Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 9:46 pm

Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty


March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository.



The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission.



Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates.



The “retardation” is simply a cover story.



Here is the memo:



MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin



I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.



On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.



In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[


SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)



I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.



(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.


(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

(b) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.



1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)





(c) Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.”



cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich



A couple of questions jump out of this:




  • None of these “concerns” or “suspicions” were explicitly discussed with Dougherty when he was on the stand and from the existing record they weren’t discussed with him by the FBI or the Dallas Police after Eisenberg had raised them.

  • Eisenberg claims the time of the shots was 12:32PM. This is the time also laid out in other documents relating to the assassination investigation. So what time was Kennedy actually shot?


Last edited by Admin on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Word change - formatting)

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:28 pm

Lee,

sorry for the reformatting, but had problems reading it as it was....

I think Eisenberg got quite a bit right here.

There are differing lists of who was on the floor laying crew - some lists omit Dougherty.

A couple of years ago, I stumbled on a newspaper story from (I think) '65 about a reporter going to the TSBD and finding it now guarded by security. Truly took him to the 6th floor and he was a bit surprised to find that the floor laying had not been completed...

It really would be good to get a hold of a photo of JD - or at least a good description.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 11:34 pm

Hi Greg

No problem on reformatting. I typed it in word and copied it over.

On a related note, I sometimes view your site on the mobile (cell) phone version and struggle to read it because it comes up as grey writing on a grey background - something you might want to look into changing (black or white font would be much better).

I'll be going to Dallas in November and could take a trip to Sunset High School. Do you think they'll have all the yearbooks in their library?

What are your thoughts about the time of the shots? 12:32 - the same time that they have LHO leaving. How certain are we that the revised time of 12:30 is accurate?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Sat 21 Jan 2012, 10:02 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Hi Greg

No problem on reformatting. I typed it in word and copied it over.

On a related note, I sometimes view your site on the mobile (cell) phone version and struggle to read it because it comes up as grey writing on a grey background - something you might want to look into changing (black or white font would be much better).

Lee, have changed it to white. Let me know if it needs further tweaking.

I'll be going to Dallas in November and could take a trip to Sunset High School. Do you think they'll have all the yearbooks in their library?

I'd say they probably do. Hopefully the one you want is not missing.

What are your thoughts about the time of the shots? 12:32 - the same time that they have LHO leaving. How certain are we that the revised time of 12:30 is accurate?

It's not exact - but I doubt 12:32 is either. A few seconds here or there, as you'd know, make a lot of difference in a very very tight time schedule.

You may have read this already, but what it says to me is how difficult it is ascertain the exact timing. Scroll down about 2/3's of the page: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk5/f680.htm

Even the usually astute Ray Gallagher seems to miss the problem when he says...

"At 12:28, approximately 2 minutes before shots were fired at the presidential limousine, the microphone stuck open again for 171/2 seconds transmitting the engine sound of a running motorcycle."

And then in the next paragraph says...

"To add to the possibility of a deliberate keying open the microphone was another strange bit to add to the scenario. At 12:32:05, several seconds before the microphone closed, and several seconds after the fatal shot to President Kennedy..."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=520666

Although to be fair, I guess it depends on his definition of "several seconds".



Last edited by greg parker on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 31 Jan 2012, 8:03 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Hi Greg

No problem on reformatting. I typed it in word and copied it over.

On a related note, I sometimes view your site on the mobile (cell) phone version and struggle to read it because it comes up as grey writing on a grey background - something you might want to look into changing (black or white font would be much better).

I'll be going to Dallas in November and could take a trip to Sunset High School. Do you think they'll have all the yearbooks in their library?

What are your thoughts about the time of the shots? 12:32 - the same time that they have LHO leaving. How certain are we that the revised time of 12:30 is accurate?


Lee,

I used an ipad for the first time while away and initially had the same problem (grey on grey). It is apparently an issue with Safari.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3255646?start=0&tstart=0

I switched to google and the site now looks the same on ipad as it does on PC.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 13 Aug 2013, 7:11 pm

I notice on the EF that the man who was born with a complete absence of curiosity, David Von Pein, is once again wiping his dirty arse over incredibly important questions related to the testimony and unanswered questions of key assassination witnesses.

"Dougherty's WC testimony is a train wreck alright. But it certainly wasn't caused by anything the WC did. It was Dougherty himself that made it a mess.

In my article on Dougherty, I pointed out the exact same things mentioned by Karl Kinaski above. But I certainly see nothing here to make me think the Warren Commission is to blame for this disaster. And if there's any "floor charade", it's being caused by Dougherty, not the WC:


Website deleted"

I have removed his link to ensure his shitty website receives no further hits.

Sean Murphy, who I believe is one of the finest new generation researchers out there, has started the cat and mouse game with DVP which I believe serves no ones interests but Von Pein's because it legitimises his bullshit statements.

Continually questioning Dougherty's whereabouts in relation to his WC testimony simply lead into a dead end. The fact of the matter is this; certain Warren Commission lawyers had very pertinent questions that they wanted asking of Dougherty.  They were not asked and no real answers were forthcoming from the witness.  The same types of questions were set out by Redlich and Eisenberg prior to Mary Bledsoe's and Earlene Roberts testimony concerning their lodgers in the lead-up to, and after, the assassination.  What happened on the back of these requests?  Bugger all.

Regarding Dougherty we have a memo with a title: "Identity of Assassin" that places much suspicion upon him.  Yet we are all left with more questions than answers; we are left with some bullshit story that Dougherty was a "retard" who was accompanied by Truly and his father during his interviews and his testimony; and we are left without a fucking picture of the guy.  The only pictures thus far found are of a youth military regiment he was in when he was in high school and we don't know which one was him but whichever one he is he is holding a frigging rifle.

I'm sure it has never been the policy of the United States Army to proactively recruit "retards" and let them serve for two years? 

Eisenberg asked the right questions, the Warren Commission let Dougherty walk out without fully answering any of them.  Pat Speer, once again, is spreading his continual crap by using Dougherty's own testimony to categorically state as fact that he was not one of the "floor laying crew" in the TSBD.  He may not have been but I certainly wouldn't be placing much faith in his, and the other 5th and 6th floor workers testimony concerning what the fuck was happening in the building on 11/22/63.


Last edited by Lee David Farley on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 13 Aug 2013, 10:08 pm

Lee David Farley wrote:I notice on the EF that the man who was born with a complete absence of curiosity, David Von Pein, is once again wiping his dirty arse over incredibly important questions related to the testimony and unanswered questions of key assassination witnesses.

"Dougherty's WC testimony is a train wreck alright. But it certainly wasn't caused by anything the WC did. It was Dougherty himself that made it a mess.

In my article on Dougherty, I pointed out the exact same things mentioned by Karl Kinaski above. But I certainly see nothing here to make me think the Warren Commission is to blame for this disaster. And if there's any "floor charade", it's being caused by Dougherty, not the WC:

The point to make here is, if DVP believes Dougherty was conducting some sort of charade, shouldn't that make Dougherty a person to be under suspicion? If DVP tries to skirt around that by saying the charade was caused simply by his "mental" state, then under what possible rule of law or common sense would you be using anything he said to support your case? 

Website deleted"

I have removed his link to ensure his shitty website receives no further hits.

Sean Murphy, who I believe is one of the finest new generation researchers out there, has started the cat and mouse game with DVP which I believe serves no ones interests but Von Peins because it legitimises his bullshit statements.

No argument about Sean from me. Few try to find the soft underbelly of any evidence, theory or scenario as much as Sean does. Anything that can withstand Sean's scrutiny should be taken seriously.

Continually questioning Dougherty's whereabouts in relation to his WC testimony simply lead into a dead end. The fact of the matter is this; certain Warren Commission lawyers had very pertinent questions that they wanted asking of Dougherty and they were not asked and no real answers were forthcoming from the witness.  The same types of questions were set out by Redlich and Eisenberg prior to Mary Bledsoe's and Earlene Roberts testimony concerning their lodgers in the lead-up to and after the assassination.  What happened on the back of these requests?  Fuck all.

Regarding Dougherty we have a memo with a title: Identity of Assassin that places much suspicion upon him.  Yet we are all left with more questions than answers; we are left with some bullshit story that Dougherty was a "retard" who was accompanied by Tryul during his interviews and his father during his testimony; and we are left without a fucking picture of the guy.  The only pictures thus far found are of a youth military regiment he was in when he was in high school and we don't know which one was him but whichever one he is he is holding a frigging rifle.

I'm sure it has never been the policy of the United States Army to proactively recruit "retards" and let them serve for two years? 

"Retards"? Probably not intentionally -- but in times of war, intelligence standards were/are generally lowered to help get the numbers needed. Classic example: In 1966 (Vietnam era), McNamara instigated "Project 100,000" which added 100,000 men to the ranks by lowering the standards. These men became known in some quarters as "McNamara's Morons".  

Eisenberg asked the right questions, the Warren Commission let Dougherty walk out having without fully answering any of them.  Pat Speer, once again, is spreading his continual crap by using Dougherty's own testimony to categorically state as fact that he was not one of the "floor laying crew" in the TSBD.  He may not have been but I certainly wouldn't be placing much faith in his, and the other 5th and 6th floor workers testimony concerning what the fuck was happening in the building on 11/22/63.

Here is why Speer should be taken with a grain of salt. Two men in their first statements, both placed Dougherty among the floor layers. One of those was Dougherty himself. Both later made a second list and omitted Jack from it.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40395&relPageId=6 Jack was on at least one other person's list, as well.




Last edited by greg parker on Fri 29 Aug 2014, 10:15 am; edited 2 times in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 13 Aug 2013, 11:14 pm

greg parker wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote: Eisenberg asked the right questions, the Warren Commission let Dougherty walk out having without fully answering any of them.  Pat Speer, once again, is spreading his continual crap by using Dougherty's own testimony to categorically state as fact that he was not one of the "floor laying crew" in the TSBD.  He may not have been but I certainly wouldn't be placing much faith in his, and the other 5th and 6th floor workers testimony concerning what the fuck was happening in the building on 11/22/63.

Here is why Speer should be taken with a grain of salt. Two men in their first statements, both placed Dougherty among the floor layers. One of those was Dougherty himself. Both later made a second list and omitted Jack from it.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40395&relPageId=6 Jack was on at least one other person's list, as well.


This why reading his stuff just makes me completely turn off to the guy, Greg.

"Eisenberg was wrong about Dougherty's working with the floor laying crew. Dougherty's original statement says he worked on the sixth floor, but says nothing about working with the crew. Eisenberg himself added that into his memo.

Dougherty, apparently, was like Oswald, an order puller floating from floor to floor." Pat Speer

Eisenberg was "wrong" because Pat Speer says so.  No ifs and no buts about it.  A grain of salt is being nice, bud.  Personally, I'd take it to the nearest city dump and throw it in with the rest of the garbage.

P.S. In addition to Eisenberg's requests, if the WC would have been interested in the truth of the matter, they would have reconstructed Dougherty's movements in relation to those of Baker/Truly, Adams/Styles and gone through what would have happened if each of the events occured as claimed.  As we both know, Victoria Adams specifically asked for a time trial in her Warren Commission pre-meeting as documented by Barry Ernest and was basically told to go swivel.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 1:17 am

Between December 2nd and December 6th, 1963, the Secret Service interviewed all of the TSBD employees who were at work on November 22 and they detailed their findings in a report submitted on December 7th, 1963.  Their report contains the following from Jack E. Dougherty:
 
"Jack E. Dougherty, 1827 S. Marsalis Street, Dallas, telephone WH 6-7170, has been employed in the shipping department of this firm for 11 years.  On November 22, 1963, Dougherty was working with the crew laying the new floor on the sixth floor, and descended in the elevator with them to the first floor a few minutes before noon.  When Dougherty was interviewed, he seemed very confused about time and places.  Mr. Truly furnished the information that, although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.  Dougherty was therefore not interviewed further.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=781

So, there you have it.  After a presidential assassination you just have to make some unproven claims that one of the most suspicious characters who was inside the TSBD at 12:30pm on 11/22 is a "retard" and no further interviewing will take place.  Not only did Jack Edwin Dougherty have problems remembering "facts", "times", "places" and became "confused since the assassination" but he also had problems remembering the jobs he was asked to do.  It's a wonder this guy managed to get his trousers on each morning and find his way to work.  Sounds like the last person you would give the keys to a building to.

...oh wait.  The man who forgot every damn thing but his own name was given the keys.  Shocked

Dougherty joins the likes of Buell Wesley Frazier, Gladys Johnson, Mary Bledsoe and dozens of others for managing to hold onto the exact details of what they knew concerning the crimes of November 22, 1963.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:19 am

"Jack E. Dougherty, 1827 S. Marsalis Street, Dallas, telephone WH 6-7170, has been employed in the shipping department of this firm for 11 years.  On November 22, 1963, Dougherty was working with the crew laying the new floor on the sixth floor, and descended in the elevator with them to the first floor a few minutes before noon.  When Dougherty was interviewed, he seemed very confused about time and places.  Mr. Truly furnished the information that, although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.  Dougherty was therefore not interviewed further.”
Lee,

I think the portrait that was painted of him was actually purloined from "Of Mice and Men". Dougherty was Lenny to Truly's George. Throughout his testimony, I keep expecting him to ask about the rabbits.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:56 am

Dougherty admitted to being on the 6th floor during the minutes before shots were fired from there, and during the minutes after shots were fired from there. Eisenberg's memo is aptly titled "Identity of the Assassin", since Dougherty in all likelihood witnessed the sniper(s). The WC didn't ask what he witnessed, nor did the DPD- who learned from his affidavit that he'd been up on the 6th after an early lunch.

And Truly had the power to tell the Secret Service, who interviewed him in early December, to "Get lost". The Secret Service was, in my opinion, pretty much on-the-beam at getting interviewees to tell the truth The interviewing agents were Arthur Blake, William Carter, and good ole Elmer Moore (who pummeled the Parkland doctors, especially Malcolm Perry, into submission). Whether they were all involved in the Dougherty interview is unclear.

I don't see an out for Dougherty and Truly in this. I mean, how much better an eyewitness to the sniper(s) is there?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 10:58 am

Doughtery wasn't retarded.  He finished high school and his answers to WC sound reasonably intelligent, its just he keeps missing the the point of the question. His "retardation" was probably a combination of hearing loss and some kind of mental disorder (or "emotional problem" as Eisenberg would call it).  Either or both of those conditions may have first presented while in the Army or they could have been there before but missed by the draft physical (telling the doc he'd been a ROTC cadet could have been all he'd needed to be approved) and just aggravated by the rigors of military life.

At any rate, the fact the Army discharged Doughtery at the end of 1944--- at the same time Eisenhower was screaming for infantry replacements to make up losses from the campaign across France---  is all you need to know about Dougherty's suitability as a solider.  And then he gets home and can't find a job?  The US unemployment rate in 1944 was the lowest it has ever been, the lowest it ever will be, 1.2%.  As I've written elsewhere, you know your economy is at full employment when you're giving German POWs drivers licenses and work vehicles.
http://monetaryrealism.com/this-is-what-full-employment-looks-like/

And Jack Dougherty can't find a job between 1944 and 1952?  Hell, the GI Bill would have reimbursed his employer for half his first year salary. It sounds like the poor guy had a nervous breakdown or a psychotic break and wasn't capable of working until he finally took that TSBD job in 1952.

There's definitely something going on in his medical history the WC didn't uncover (were I a novelist, I'd say he was treated by a hypnotherapist... who moonlighted for the CIA Smile) but he's definitely a weak reed emotionally.  If someone told Dougherty they'd kill his parents if he told anyone what he saw, poor Jack would've been a nervous wreck over it but he'd keep his mouth shut (perhaps only confiding in Truly or his father).

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 12:26 pm

Lee David Farley wrote: he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.
Let's try and verify the memory problems through his testimony:

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.


"To be exact". Nothing wrong with long term memory, anyhow...

He served his time in Seymour, Indiana while his peers were used as cannon fodder in Europe and elsewhere.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged. 
Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Was there anything about Seymour, Indiana that might be of interest here?

How about this?
SEYMOUR, Ind.  (WDRB) -- Searchers in Seymour, Indiana, look underground for some of the secrets of World War II -- Nazi secrets, to be precise.

The Allies shipped Nazi planes to Freeman Field so pilots and engineers could fly them, take them apart, and put them back together again.

What they learned was important, because American planes weren't as advanced.

What happened to those planes after the war is still a mystery.
 http://www.wdrb.com/story/17041764/nazi-secrets-wwii-planes-buried-under-seymour-ind-airport

I think Jack was pretty good at keeping secrets.
beowulf wrote:he US unemployment rate in 1944 was the lowest it has ever been, the lowest it ever will be, 1.2%.  As I've written elsewhere, you know your economy is at full employment when you're giving German POWs drivers licenses and work vehicles.
http://monetaryrealism.com/this-is-what-full-employment-looks-like/
And Jack Dougherty can't find a job between 1944 and 1952?  Hell, the GI Bill would have reimbursed his employer for half his first year salary.
Again from Jack's testimony: Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.\

Okay. So we know Jack is "mistaken" about jobs being hard to come by. We also know that he claims to have used employment agencies.

One thing these agencies are good at is ringing every cent they can out of the government. If I understand the system correctly, the agencies got paid for each person placed in employment - and the more difficult the case, the higher the payment. 

In the case of Dougherty, one would expect any agency to use the GI Bill as a dangle to prospective employees to get him into employment. Combine that with record low unemployment, and it becomes difficult to believe Jack really was unemployed all those years.

The question that arises from that is, if he was not unemployed - why claim to be?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 1:22 pm

Interesting about captured German planes being shipped to Doughtery's Indiana airbase.


As for what Jack was up to, I'd wager he was in and out of a mental ward during that time period (1944 to 1952). If did he try working at a job, I doubt he lasted long enough to be worth mentioning. I can't even fathom 1.2% unemployment but there's no way any man or woman (and the occasional POW) of sound mind and body could be stuck without a job for more than a few hours. Jack's story of fruitlessly looking for work is him hiding something he's embarrassed about. If he'd been in prison he'd have a police record so that pretty much leaves mental illness.

EDIT: Actually, the point I made about prison isn't necessarily true. A first offender for most crimes can get the conviction expunged from their record after they serve their sentence (as we lawyers like to say, the first one's on the house).  Now of course, everything's on computer so the FBI would know about any state conviction, live or expunged but back then paper records were easier to make go away. Its possible Jack got some trouble with the law, did his jail time and then its like it never happened (except for the big hole in his work history).

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 1:43 pm

beowulf wrote:Interesting about captured German planes being shipped to Doughtery's Indiana airbase. I was about to say its unlikely they'd be shipped over before the war ended but on second thought, since the cargo ships would be returning from Europe empty anyway, it'd always be a waste not ship them over as soon as they were captured during the war.

As for what Jack was up to, I'd wager he was in and out of a mental ward during that time period (1944 to 1952). If did he try working at a job, I doubt he lasted long enough to be worth mentioning. I can't even fathom 1.2% unemployment but there's no way any man or woman (and the occasional POW) of sound mind and body could be stuck without a job for more than a few hours. Jack's story of fruitlessly looking for work is him hiding something he's embarrassed about. If he'd been in prison he'd have a police record so that pretty much leaves mental illness.
It sounds like they did ship them straight over:

They were actually developing the first jet aircraft over in Germany, so we had a chance to bring that aircraft over here, break it down, examine the engine, examine the aircraft, and find out things that we might be able to use on the aircraft that we were building at the time," Cooper said.  "About 81 different types of aircraft were brought here, including V-1 and V-2 missiles."

The Army showed the public the enemy planes during an open house in 1946, as the work wound down.  Eventually, everyone wanted to forget about the war.
------------------------------------
You're probably right about "mental illness" but for the sake of all possibilities being on the table, let's add employment requiring non-disclosure clauses of the classified type.

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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 4:17 am

Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. 
Mr. BALL - None at all? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.


So, no medical treatment whatsoever whilst serving according to Jack.


Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a gun around there? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?


What kind of lawyer would let the above exchange pass by?  Rhetorical question BTW

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 5:09 am

"So, no medical treatment whatsoever whilst serving according to Jack."
That's dubious when his father said he received a medical discharge, even so it could be technically true if he didn't receive treatment till after his discharge. 
Medical care for veterans isn't provided by Army but by the VA (at that time, Veterans Administration, now called Dept of Veterans Affairs) and its chain of hospitals and clinics


Of course, Jack has a gift for misinterpreting questions.  maybe by no trouble with medical treatment he meant he had no trouble getting medical treatment. Surprised)

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 5:53 am

beowulf wrote:"So, no medical treatment whatsoever whilst serving according to Jack."
That's dubious when his father said he received a medical discharge, even so it could be technically true if he didn't receive treatment till after his discharge. 
Medical care for veterans isn't provided by Army but by the VA (at that time, Veterans Administration, now called Dept of Veterans Affairs) and its chain of hospitals and clinics


Of course, Jack has a gift for misinterpreting questions.  maybe by no trouble with medical treatment he meant he had no trouble getting medical treatment. Surprised)
 He answers many of the questions clearly, concisely and when it comes to dates he seems to have a great memory.

It seems to go haywire once his movements around the different floors are discussed.  I really do not want to get into the whole Jarman, Williams and Norman on the fifth floor not seeing Jack and Jack not seeing them scenario because it wrecks my head.  But anybody who has studied this closely knows full well that these stories stink to high heaven.

Bearing in mind the details of Eisenberg's memo, Joseph Ball's performance is a complete joke and they wanted this guy off the stand as quickly as possible.  I mean, if they thought this guy was struggling remembering what floor he was on why didn't they use a visual aid for him to mark?  Well, for the simple reason that they weren't interested in Jack Dougherty, regardless of any Eisenberg memo entitled "Identity of Assassin."

I don't entertain the notion that Jack Dougherty fired any shots but I certainly entertain the notion that he saw what took place on the fifth and sixth floors and possibly what didn't take place.  I currently lean toward the guy accosted by Marion Baker on the fourth floor being Jack E. Dougherty.  And if that notion is correct, why was it replaced with a different version?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:19 am

I don't think Dougherty was "mentally retarded", but that that was Truly's way of dismissing anything he may have tried to express to his Secret Service interviewers. I always got the impression from WCD 87 that Truly was present when Dougherty was interviewed, although, strictly interpreted, he was possibly down in his office- and the SS went down there after attempting to get a straight answer from Jack. But I think Truly was with Dougherty, and that would make Dougherty unique among the TSBD employees that were interviewed. Meaning that when the SS got around to Jack, Truly knew about it and chaperoned him, going into damage control mode.

This "retarded" characterization was used by Truly moments after the assassination, when he and Officer Marrion Baker rushed inside toward the freight elevators. To quote some passages from The Girl On the Stairs (Barry Ernest):

First, p. 347, when Vickie Adams got to the 1st floor about a minute after the shooting:

"I remember saying to a fairly big black man inside the building right near the loading dock right after I got down the stairs that I thought the President may have been shot. I don't know what his name is. I do know that he worked for the Depository and I think he was a warehouse worker."


There's a footnote to this, on p. 417:

"Curiously, Officer Marrion Baker also saw a black man in the same general area. During a December, 2004 telephone interview, the now-retired Baker told me when he and building manager Roy Truly reached the rear of the Depository on their way to the stairs, he noticed an 'older, large black man sitting toward the back stairs, near the elevators there. Baker said the man was the only person he saw in that area. When he asked Truly about him, Truly said the man was an employee and was 'slightly retarded'.


I'm pretty sure this was Troy West, whose wrapping paper work table was approximately 20 feet from the freight elevators. West was 5'9 1/2" but with a sizable Afro. He weighed a scant 155 lbs, but he was 56 years old. I think the years (Adams was interviewed in 2002) added some size to Adams' and Baker's memories of this black man. Troy West also said in basically every interview that he hung around in the vicinity of his wrapping table.

But, although Troy was not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, I wouldn't consider him even slightly retarded. His testimony is lucid enough, for someone with only a 7th grade education. Personally I think West played an ancillary role in the TSBD in-house portion of the JFK conspiracy, keeping an eye on the elevators, while they were being utilized immediately after the assassination. Making extra-sure nobody walked in by surprise, two minutes after the shooting, when the west freight elevator descended. So terming him "slightly retarded" was Truly's way of diverting suspicion.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by AllenLowe on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:20 am

I agree on this - re, Lee's post above about Dougherty being aware of what happened; Duke Lane has come to the same conclusion in his work.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Fri 16 Aug 2013, 4:08 am

"I currently lean toward the guy accosted by Marion Baker on the fourth floor being Jack E. Dougherty.  And if that notion is correct, why was it replaced with a different version?"

That would certainly explain why Truly vouched for the "employee" Baker accosted on 4th floor. It would make sense for Jack to take the stairs down if the assassins had taken the elevator (WC of course has Jack taking elevator down). Since we have surmised that Piper was who Rowland saw on the 6th floor and that the assassins got in and out of the building with fake badges, it also makes sense of Jack's word salad of a statement that a "FBI agent" (more likely a fake Secret Service agent who badged Jack while saying "federal agent") told him to go find his boss; that the first person he saw was Piper; and that he ran into Truly on the 4th floor.

This raises a few questions: 1. what did Jack know and when did he know it?  Was he helping assassins all along (whether voluntarily or by prior threat), was he coerced  on the scene into playing along, or was he slow-witted enough on the scene (surely Piper and Truly would have told him the score after the fact) that he believed the "FBI agent" was legit?

2.  Did Jack resemble Baker's affidavit description of "30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket"? I don't think anyway has come up with Jack's height, weight  and clothes for that day? On the other hand, it may not matter if Baker  had refused pressure to ID Oswald (just as Hoover told LBJ about polygraphs the next day, "I wouldn't want to be a party to sending a man to the chair on a lie detector", Baker could felt the same about falsely IDing the wrong man), but was willing to play along enough to revise his actual description of someone, say, taller, older and heavier, to one closer (but not exactly) to Oswald's description.

3.  If Jack was who Baker saw, then presumably Baker didn't see him again at TSBD or police station or he would have said so in his affidavit.  Is that possible or had he seen Jack again but was told not to mention that in affidavit?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Redfern on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 6:14 am

beowulf wrote:"I currently lean toward the guy accosted by Marion Baker on the fourth floor being Jack E. Dougherty.  And if that notion is correct, why was it replaced with a different version?"

That would certainly explain why Truly vouched for the "employee" Baker accosted on 4th floor. It would make sense for Jack to take the stairs down if the assassins had taken the elevator (WC of course has Jack taking elevator down). Since we have surmised that Piper was who Rowland saw on the 6th floor and that the assassins got in and out of the building with fake badges, it also makes sense of Jack's word salad of a statement that a "FBI agent" (more likely a fake Secret Service agent who badged Jack while saying "federal agent") told him to go find his boss; that the first person he saw was Piper; and that he ran into Truly on the 4th floor.

This raises a few questions: 1. what did Jack know and when did he know it?  Was he helping assassins all along (whether voluntarily or by prior threat), was he coerced  on the scene into playing along, or was he slow-witted enough on the scene (surely Piper and Truly would have told him the score after the fact) that he believed the "FBI agent" was legit?

2.  Did Jack resemble Baker's affidavit description of "30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket"? I don't think anyway has come up with Jack's height, weight  and clothes for that day? On the other hand, it may not matter if Baker  had refused pressure to ID Oswald (just as Hoover told LBJ about polygraphs the next day, "I wouldn't want to be a party to sending a man to the chair on a lie detector", Baker could felt the same about falsely IDing the wrong man), but was willing to play along enough to revise his actual description of someone, say, taller, older and heavier, to one closer (but not exactly) to Oswald's description.

3.  If Jack was who Baker saw, then presumably Baker didn't see him again at TSBD or police station or he would have said so in his affidavit.  Is that possible or had he seen Jack again but was told not to mention that in affidavit?
There was a discussion on the JFK Assassination Forum a couple of years back regarding an individual caught briefly on the Alyea film who may have been Dougherty.

If so (and I think it was), he was the 'great, big husky fellow' referred to by Truly.

He seemed to be wearing a white T-shirt.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 3:18 pm

Redfern wrote:There was a discussion on the JFK Assassination Forum a couple of years back regarding an individual caught briefly on the Alyea film who may have been Dougherty.

If so (and I think it was), he was the 'great, big husky fellow' referred to by Truly.

He seemed to be wearing a white T-shirt.
The description Baker gave rules Dougherty, probably even more-so than Oswald, out as Mr 4th Floor.

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            Billy Bragg
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             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Redfern on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 5:48 am

We often hear arguments that he helped an assassin escape by one of the lifts, but does no-one think that Dougherty was actually the 6th floor sniper?

What's always been a puzzle to me is why an assassin smuggled into the TSBD would be comfortable sharing the company of one - or maybe two - TSBD employees (BRW and perhaps Eddie Piper) in the minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Added to Arnold Rowland's sighting, Carolyn Walther said she saw yet another figure on the 6th floor - a man dressed in a brown suit. Truly and Shelley both wore suits. 

The TSBD component of the assassination bears the hallmarks of an inside job.

Dougherty even admitted going back up to the 6th floor and was presumably the figure seen 4 or 5 minutes after assassination by Lillian Mooneyham.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by AllenLowe on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 7:48 am

coercion is the word - he was swayed by threats about the results of non-cooperation. I really don't think Dougherty was the assassin, but he was up there and he did know what happened; probably the same with Bonnie Ray Williams.  Unless we have some info about Dougherty's marksmanship skills.

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