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Jack Edwin Dougherty

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 10:34 pm

I just read this two hours ago, from Joan Mellen's Wecht conference presentation. Substitute Jack Dough/Daugh .....

Pg. 2

....Another CIA document refers to the Agency’s use of the name “Jack Martin” as a “generic,” which was their term. As Louisiana HSCA investigator L. J. Delsa, a former New Orleans homicide officer, explained to me, this was so you could never be certain you were dealing with the correct Jack Martin. ..... http://joanmellen.com/wordpress/

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 10:45 pm

Tom Scully wrote:I just read this two hours ago, from Joan Mellen's Wecht conference presentation. Substitute Jack Dough/Daugh .....

Pg. 2

....Another CIA document refers to the Agency’s use of the name “Jack Martin” as a “generic,” which was their term. As Louisiana HSCA investigator L. J. Delsa, a former New Orleans homicide officer, explained to me, this was so you could never be certain you were dealing with the correct Jack Martin. ..... http://joanmellen.com/wordpress/
Tom and others,

Do you recall what author/researcher it was that got an opportunity to spend time at the TSBD after he applied for a job there and got to meet "Jack Dougherty" in person?  Was it Larry Harris?  I seem to remember that whenever the assassination got mentioned Jack would say he "wasn't supposed to talk about it" and quickly disengage.

One suspicion could be that there was no such person as "Jack Dougherty" and it was simply a cover but if Jack Dougherty was still working at the depository years after the event it would appear less likely as an avenue of thought.

Still no picture of the person who we regard as "Jack" and yet more questions.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 10:54 pm

The change of one letter kind of reminded of Crafard/Craford...

It would be good to rule such a subtle change in or out as intelligence SOP in certain circumstances. 

Larry's story that it was a clerical error made by the Army that he stuck with sounds like utter crap to me.'

And I can't for the life of me, understand why you'd change "Daugherty" to "Dougherty". But the whole family appears to have done it.

_________________
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 11:20 pm

greg parker wrote:The change of one letter kind of reminded of Crafard/Craford...

It would be good to rule such a subtle change in or out as intelligence SOP in certain circumstances. 

Larry's story that it was a clerical error made by the Army that he stuck with sounds like utter crap to me.'

And I can't for the life of me, understand why you'd change "Daugherty" to "Dougherty". But the whole family appears to have done it.
It may be a pronunciation issue involved.  If they pronounced their surname [Do-erty] but it was spelled [Daugherty] then it could result in the surname being spelled [Dougherty] when giving your name verbally in person or over the phone.

Same deal if they prounounced their surname [Dock-erty].  Maybe it was easier to spell it the way most people wrote it?

I lived in Ireland for a number of years and met many Daughertys.  I have spent quite a bit of time in Scotland and have met quite a few Doughertys.  I have also met a few Dohertys.  I suppose it depends on your experiences with the surname.  If I asked a cross-section of my co-workers to write down the surname [Daugherty] by pronouncing it I guarantee they would all spell it [Dougherty].

The Crafard/Craford angle is interesting - seeing as how it is also the same letter being changed.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 11:31 pm

As for me English is only third language, I can't see any differences between Daugherty, Dougherty and Doherty. I never remember which variant is correct one, and only because today I spent more time on this certain thread, I learned that `our` Jack correctly is Dougherty...

My guess is that hearing said surname I will instinctively spell it as Daugherty, I do not know why.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 23 Oct 2013, 3:12 am

There's yet another D(a/o)ugherty in the 1937 Sunset HS Yearbook: Bill Daughtery.



Back in the early 1900s, it was common for many high schools to have two graduating classes each year. Sunset had a January class and a June class. Bill was in the January class; Jack and Redfern were in the June class. For some reason the names were not listed in alphabetical order, so you have to go through each page to ensure you don't miss anyone. As with Redfern, Bill, was involved in ROTC/military cadet activities.

If the TSBD Jack Edwin Dougherty actually did go to Sunset HS, he didn't stay long enough to have his name or picture recorded anywhere in the 1937 yearbook, from what I can tell.


 

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Wed 23 Oct 2013, 4:03 am

9K116 wrote:

Could be brothers?
This side by side comparison raises massive concerns for me.

These two people are the image of each other.  Do we really have to now contend with the notion that there was a pupil of Sunset High School called Jack Daugherty who was a different Jack Dougherty to the one who worked at the TSBD yet looked almost exactly like Redfern Dougherty who was the brother of the TSBD Jack Dougherty?

I don't think my brain can take much more of this.

Those two are brothers.  I'd bet my house on it.  I don't know what the hell is going on here but something stinks and it isn't my son's diaper because I changed it twenty minutes ago.

 cheers

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 23 Oct 2013, 6:35 am

In both the 1940 and 1941 Sunset High School Yearbooks, there's a Jack Dougherty listed under the Class of January 1943. Here's a portion of the page from the 1940 Yearbook:




That makes three Jack D(a/o)ughertys that went to Sunset between 1937 and 1940 (assuming the TSBD Jack Edwin Dougherty is not the one listed above or the one who graduated in 1937). I don't see a Jack Dougherty in the 1942 or 1943 yearbooks.
 
Kinda makes you wonder if TSBD Jack was being completely truthful in his statements and testimony.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Fri 25 Oct 2013, 12:15 pm

I was unfortunate enough to experience a short telephone conversation with a nephew of Jack Dougherty this evenining. My approach was to remind him that the 50th anniversary is four weeks hence, as a witness who testified to the Warren Commission to key matters, his uncle Jack is a historic person. I am aware that the Sixth Floor Museum does not have a photo of Jack Dougherty and I was calling to share this with him and to suggest that his family consider donating a photograph of his uncle, ideally at age 40, to the museum.

On my initial attempt, this nephew's wife abruptly hung up the telephone after she asked why I was attempting to reach her husband and I frankly and openly shared how I obtained their relationship link to Jack Dougherty, their contact information, and an outline of my business with her husband. I called back immediately and Jack's nephew answered. I explained I was calling back to ascertain whether the call connection had been interrupted or his wife had ended the call. He confirmed that she did not want to talk to me. He was sarcastic and hostile but he listened to my explanation for calling. He asked how he could know whether of not I was one of those who is posting so negatively about his uncle on the internet? I told him I allowed for his reaction to a cold call from a stranger and reminded him I had made him aware that the museum would appreciate accepting a donation from his family of a photo of his late uncle. He maintained his excuse that his uncle has been subjected to unfair criticism, even as a deceased person unable to respond.

I was satisfied that this nephew had struggled to even allow me to explain why I had called, twice. I apologized for intruding and thanked him for listening. Maybe Gary Mack can send a letter that makes the point that the museum would appreciate a donation of a photo, anticipating that a request directly from the museum might be better received and offer an opportunity for a member of Jack Dougherty's family to do an oral history interview to enhance the museums's archive.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Fri 25 Oct 2013, 8:30 pm

Tom Scully wrote:He was sarcastic and hostile but he listened to my explanation for calling.

He asked how he could know whether of not I was one of those who is posting so negatively about his uncle on the internet? 

He maintained his excuse that his uncle has been subjected to unfair criticism, even as a deceased person unable to respond.

Tom: Perhaps Jack's nephew needed to be told that it was Melvin Eisenberg from the Warren Commission staff that had "suspicions" concerning his uncle and severely doubted his story.  Maybe he needs to contact the National Archives and ask why they are holding documents (and will forever hold documents) that contain "unfair criticism" of Uncle Jack that refer to him as "retarded" and has his name associated with memos that contain titles like "Identity of Assassin"?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 26 Oct 2013, 6:09 am

Shame the family don't defend his memory then and set the record straight.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Sat 26 Oct 2013, 12:48 pm

During the Cold War, the ROTC trained both future Military Intelligence Officers and Army Security Agency officers. A notable example is Ed Lansdale.  

It also trained infantry officers, supply officers and staff officers, most US Army officers get their commissions through a college Reserve Officer Training Corps.
That's not even what's going on at Sunset High School, high schools have Junior ROTC programs but the "officer" part here is a misnomer, its a recruiting tool where retired officers teach in local high schools and encourage the boys (and these days girls) to enlist in the service.  Participation in the program does not lead to an Army commission but allows JROTC "veterans" who go into the service to finish basic training at a slightly higher rank (PFC, say, instead of private)  than the other recruits. Here's a website of a random high school JROTC program.
http://www.ops.org/high/south/academics/jrotc/tabid/115/default.aspx

The different spelling on the 1940 Census I think has a  simple explanation.  If you don't mail in your Census form (which in 1940 would likely be due to illiteracy), a Census worker will knock on your door to interview you. The incorrect spelling could simply be due to a Census worker hearing Redfern wrong as he filled out the form on the front porch.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Sat 26 Oct 2013, 4:30 pm

beowulf wrote:During the Cold War, the ROTC trained both future Military Intelligence Officers and Army Security Agency officers. A notable example is Ed Lansdale.  

It also trained infantry officers, supply officers and staff officers, most US Army officers get their commissions through a college Reserve Officer Training Corps.
That's not even what's going on at Sunset High School, high schools have Junior ROTC programs but the "officer" part here is a misnomer, its a recruiting tool where retired officers teach in local high schools and encourage the boys (and these days girls) to enlist in the service.  Participation in the program does not lead to an Army commission but allows JROTC "veterans" who go into the service to finish basic training at a slightly higher rank (PFC, say, instead of private)  than the other recruits. Here's a website of a random high school JROTC program.
http://www.ops.org/high/south/academics/jrotc/tabid/115/default.aspx

The different spelling on the 1940 Census I think has a  simple explanation.  If you don't mail in your Census form (which in 1940 would likely be due to illiteracy), a Census worker will knock on your door to interview you. The incorrect spelling could simply be due to a Census worker hearing Redfern wrong as he filled out the form on the front porch.
This was one of the cites I was relying on


I take your point about this being a junior program - yet I have found info in the past on ROTC members of around 14 and 15 being recruited back in the early '60s into spying on certain types of groups... on behalf of... who knows?  I came across it while researching the identity of Shasteen's barbershop kid...

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Sat 26 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

yet I have found info in the past on ROTC members of around 14 and 15 being recruited back in the early '60s into spying on certain types of groups... on behalf of... who knows

I can believe it, off topic a bit, criminal gangs recruited kids that young because in the 1960s at least a teenager could literally get away with murder (the juvenile delinquency laws were such that he could only be held in custody a few years), while nowadays the general idea is if you're old enough to do the crime you're old enough to do the time.
Same principle, have a kid do some illegal spy work, 1. no one would believe that's what they're up to, so 2. If they're caught, they're just a juvenile delinquent who only faces a stern talking-to.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 28 Oct 2013, 1:32 am

Thanks to Tom for contacting Jack's nephew. Interesting the family is aware of his notoriety on the internet in JFK circles. Not many of the general public or even those who watched/read mainstream JFK related material would be even aware of his existence or his own testimony placed him in the direct path of a fleeing Oswald about 30 seconds after the shots.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Mon 28 Oct 2013, 6:56 am

Thanks to Tom for contacting Jack's nephew. Interesting the family is aware of his notoriety on the internet in JFK circles.

I imagine Tom's wasn't the first researcher phone call the family has received and I wouldn't be surprised if Jack has been outright accused of conspiracy to murder or even being the shooter in some of those calls (some people never learn you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar).  Any family member of a witness should be approached with the angle of attack that there's a lot of false rumors on the internet about their kin and their story deserves to be told straight to dispel unjust rumors.

For example, the fact there is no picture of Jack in the Warren Commission has made some people suspicious about him for no other reason than nobody knows what he looks like.  Providing family photos of Jack would clear that up immediately. If they don't want to donate family photos to the 6th Floor Museum, they can have them scanned at Fedex Kinko's and then email them.

Also, there's some question whether Jack had mental or perhaps hearing problems because in his testimony, he seems to answer Warren Commission questions as if he misunderstood the words in the questions. 
Unfortunately, some people have interpreted these answers as someone trying to deceive the Commission because they're ignorant of any health or intellectual challenges Jack may have faced. Ay information the family can provide on that would help Jack in being treated more fairly among researchers. 

Honey, brothers, not vinegar.


Last edited by beowulf on Mon 28 Oct 2013, 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Mon 28 Oct 2013, 7:02 am

beowulf wrote:Thanks to Tom for contacting Jack's nephew. Interesting the family is aware of his notoriety on the internet in JFK circles.

I imagine Tom's wasn't the first researcher phone call the family has received and I wouldn't be surprised if Jack has been outright accused of conspiracy to murder or even being the shooter in some of those calls (some people never learn you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar).  Any family member of a witness should be approached with the angle of attack that there's a lot of false rumors on the internet about their kin and their story deserves to be told straight to dispel unjust rumors.

For example, the fact there is no picture of Jack in the Warren Commission has made some people suspicious about him for no other reason than nobody knows what he looks like.  Providing family photos of Jack would clear that immediately. If they don't want to donate family photos to the 6th Floor Museum, they can have it scanned at Fedex Kinko's and then email them.
Also, there's some question whether Jack had mental or perhaps hearing problems because in his testimony, he seems to answer Warren Commission questions as if he misunderstood the words in the questions. 

Unfortunately, some people have interpreted these answers as someone trying to deceive the Commission because they're ignorant of any health or intellectual challenges Jack may have faced. Ay information the family can provide on that would help Jack in being treated more fairly among researchers. 

Honey, brothers, not vinegar.
Absolutely. Well said.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Oct 2013, 6:44 pm

There are two sets of Dougherty nieces and nephews. I avoided the set that lost a borther and grew up away from Dallas.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fAbu22qhm-M/Um4RX4jVuUI/AAAAAAAABeQ/aMdmSs9pHuI/s971/DoughertyPrema.jpg

I also avoided them because their name is Dougherty and I wanted to telephone a niece or nephew who may never have been contacted. I did not want to get an , "oh, another one calling.....can't you people leave us alone?" Once I called back I was not lectured about calling or asked not to call again. I picked people who were most likely to be close to Jack, growing up, if he had that capacity and opportunity to develop relationships with his siblings' children. I picked a branch of the family most likely to have several pictures of Jack to chose from, people who inherited his and his mother's estates, the items you keep when you are a local relative cleaning out the home of the deceased. When they visited grandma, Jack was there.

I am going to seek out a sibling of the nephew I called who I think was most likely closest to Jack, of I did not contact that person already. I have five in total to learn more about.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 05 Nov 2013, 12:20 pm

Could this be a candidate for JD? From a 2012 post by Steve Logan on Duncan's forum. 


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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 05 Nov 2013, 1:46 pm



Hmmm....

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 05 Nov 2013, 10:41 pm

Truly:  And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been. 
Intelligent, big, husky (huh?), emotional, easily flustered, loyal.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 12:04 am

To me he is a dead ringer for the photo on the left. Nose, corner of the mouth, ear, just older. Nice one Stan.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:31 am

Tom,

Have you done any work ruling Jack Dougherty out as being in any way related to Dallas Oil and Cattle millionaire Dudley Tarlton Dougherty.

I have an aversion to geneology and family tree history as it really begins to confuse me but Dudley and his family have an interesting history in Texas and I was wondering if you had done any digging around it?

Lee

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:07 am

Lee Farley wrote:Tom,

Have you done any work ruling Jack Dougherty out as being in any way related to Dallas Oil and Cattle millionaire Dudley Tarlton Dougherty.

I have an aversion to geneology and family tree history as it really begins to confuse me but Dudley and his family have an interesting history in Texas and I was wondering if you had done any digging around it?

Lee
Lee,

Duds Dougherty contacted Garrison, telling him that a "Janis Taber" had information on the assassination. Garrison got Gurvich to follow it up and Gurvich duly reported "she knows nuttin', boss, nuttin' I tell ya." and that was the end of it. But most of us now know that Gurvich was a little bit suspect himself...

Janis Taber lived in a very expensive Manhattan apartment, and I have to wonder if she wasn't related to Robert Taber, one of the FPCC founders?

Duds himself was a failed Democrat political candidate whose ranch in Beesville played host to the likes of LBJ, Madam Nhu and Audie Murphy. Beesville is 500 miles from Dallas, and Duds had Irish and Latino heritage and was a full-on Catholic.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 7:37 pm

I'm guessing the following letter is to Bud Fensterwald from Mary Ferrell.  The pages are duplicated:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Daugherty%20Dudley%20Tarleton/Item%2001.pdf

Notice how Ferrell spells Dudley Dougherty's name as Daugherty.

Ferrell was wrong about the dates of the arrival of Madame Nhu in Dallas.  Nhu arrived on October 23, 1963 coinciding with the General Walker visit.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

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