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Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 6:34 am

Seems to me that the first couple of sentences may contradict themselves!?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 7:09 am

I'm certainly no expert, but I'll play the dummy and take a stab at this.
 
First, we are talking about a standard style bolt action rifle, as opposed to a Mauser style bolt action, correct? The reason I say this is that I understand that a Mauser bolt action design doesn't have the short stroke vulnerabilities of a standard bolt action rifle (i.e. ejection of spent cartridge/chambering of live cartridge is more of a sure thing).
 
So if we are talking about a standard bolt action rifle, here's what I perceive to be the problem with what this guy said above:
 
When chambering a new round, you must pull the bolt back sufficiently (all the way or a "long stroke") to allow the spring in the magazine to push the new round up into loading area so it can be inserted by the bolt into the chamber for firing.
 
After firing, you operate the bolt, sliding it backward to eject the spent cartridge and load a new round. If you fail to operate the bolt correctly for whatever reason (i.e. you don't pull it back all the way or you "short stroke" it), you may not eject the spent cartridge. Reclosing the bolt simply reinserts the spent cartridge which may dent it. Especially if done vigorously.
 
However, during this short stroke process, the new round is never pushed up into the loading area because the bolt never was withdrawn far enough to allow this to happen. So I don't think the next live round in the clip is affected by short stroking.
 
Also, bullet is not synonymous with cartridge. A cartridge has a bullet.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 7:39 am

So, without trying to be clever, just a Brit who doesn't quite get it, a "cartridge" is a "shell" and a "bullet" combined?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 7:51 am

ianlloyd wrote:So, without trying to be clever, just a Brit who doesn't quite get it, a "cartridge" is a "shell" and a "bullet" combined?
Correct. The cartridge also contains the gunpowder and the primer. The shell is also called a case.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 8:05 am

Ok, thanks, I'd best go re-read the DPD/WC etc. testimony/affidavits etc. in this new light.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 8:11 am

Stan Dane wrote:I'm certainly no expert, but I'll play the dummy and take a stab at this.
 
First, we are talking about a standard style bolt action rifle, as opposed to a Mauser style bolt action, correct? The reason I say this is that I understand that a Mauser bolt action design doesn't have the short stroke vulnerabilities of a standard bolt action rifle (i.e. ejection of spent cartridge/chambering of live cartridge is more of a sure thing).
 
So if we are talking about a standard bolt action rifle, here's what I perceive to be the problem with what this guy said above:
 
When chambering a new round, you must pull the bolt back sufficiently (all the way or a "long stroke") to allow the spring in the magazine to push the new round up into loading area so it can be inserted by the bolt into the chamber for firing.
 
After firing, you operate the bolt, sliding it backward to eject the spent cartridge and load a new round. If you fail to operate the bolt correctly for whatever reason (i.e. you don't pull it back all the way or you "short stroke" it), you may not eject the spent cartridge. Reclosing the bolt simply reinserts the spent cartridge which may dent it. Especially if done vigorously.
 
However, during this short stroke process, the new round is never pushed up into the loading area because the bolt never was withdrawn far enough to allow this to happen. So I don't think the next live round in the clip is affected by short stroking.
 
Also, bullet is not synonymous with cartridge. A cartridge has a bullet.
Precisely, Stan. What Mr. Purvis strangely leaves out of his tale is that "short stroking" is just that, the bolt is not retracted far enough. Depending on how far back the bolt is retracted, the empty brass cartridge may be extracted but the next live cartridge in the magazine may not be chambered. This is because the bolt must be pulled back to the fully open position to allow the next cartridge in the magazine to be pushed up by the magazine follower (spring actuated) to a position where the bottom face of the bolt can begin pushing it out of the magazine and into the chamber. His description of the bullet end of the next cartridge in the magazine "tipping up" is quite misleading, too. The empty brass cartridge held in the bolt face is much smaller in diameter than the bolt face. As the bolt travels back to the chamber, the bolt itself is riding on this next cartridge, pushing it back down.

Hi Ian
On these forums, it sometimes becomes difficult to follow terminology. As you say, you are British, I live in western Canada and there are many Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, etc. etc. etc. on these forums as well. I sometimes use the word "cartridge" without thinking that not everyone knows I mean a "live" cartridge. The only time I make a distinction is when I refer to an "empty cartridge" although I should be saying "live cartridge" all the time for the sake of clarity. The same is true of the word "shell". Many times in the JFK investigation, I see the word "hull" referring to an empty cartridge but I have never heard this expression in Canada. However, the word "bullet" should only refer to the projectile that leaves the end of the barrel.

P.S. Forgot to mention, Stan, that the 6.5 Carcano is a Mauser type action, although this "short stroking" thing could occur with other bolt action rifles, as well. Did you read my post about the experiment I did with my .223 calibre rifle and the empty brass cartridges? I was simulating a short stroke situation and ramming the empty cartridges back into the breech of the rifle as hard as I could. While I was able to dent the empty necks of the cartridges, I was unable to produce dents that resembled the dent on CE 543. Mine definitely looked curled over, giving away that the empty cartridge neck had been hit end on, while the dent on CE 543 looks like the cartridge neck has been hit from the side.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 8:38 am

Traveller11 wrote:P.S. Forgot to mention, Stan, that the 6.5 Carcano is a Mauser type action, although this "short stroking" thing could occur with other bolt action rifles, as well. Did you read my post about the experiment I did with my .223 calibre rifle and the empty brass cartridges? I was simulating a short stroke situation and ramming the empty cartridges back into the breech of the rifle as hard as I could. While I was able to dent the empty necks of the cartridges, I was unable to produce dents that resembled the dent on CE 543. Mine definitely looked curled over, giving away that the empty cartridge neck had been hit end on, while the dent on CE 543 looks like the cartridge neck has been hit from the side.
Yes, I did read about your experiment. It appears that whatever force dented CE 543, it was external to the Carcano itself.
 
Could you briefly clarify how the Mauser type action works? I thought you had to fully retract the bolt for the spent cartridge to be ejected, but as I say this I can see how short stroking would still possible with this design. Maybe the advantages of the Mauser design are that it's less likely to jam?

Thanks.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 11:31 am

Stan Dane wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:P.S. Forgot to mention, Stan, that the 6.5 Carcano is a Mauser type action, although this "short stroking" thing could occur with other bolt action rifles, as well. Did you read my post about the experiment I did with my .223 calibre rifle and the empty brass cartridges? I was simulating a short stroke situation and ramming the empty cartridges back into the breech of the rifle as hard as I could. While I was able to dent the empty necks of the cartridges, I was unable to produce dents that resembled the dent on CE 543. Mine definitely looked curled over, giving away that the empty cartridge neck had been hit end on, while the dent on CE 543 looks like the cartridge neck has been hit from the side.
Yes, I did read about your experiment. It appears that whatever force dented CE 543, it was external to the Carcano itself.
 
Could you briefly clarify how the Mauser type action works? I thought you had to fully retract the bolt for the spent cartridge to be ejected, but as I say this I can see how short stroking would still possible with this design. Maybe the advantages of the Mauser design are that it's less likely to jam?

Thanks.
The most distinctive thing about the Mauser type action, copied by more gun makers than any other action, is how the Mauser bolt locks itself when the bolt is closed. At the head end of the bolt (the end that closes on the cartridge in the chamber) a typical Mauser action has two locking lugs that rotate into their locking positions when the bolt is pushed all the way forward and the handle is turned down. It also has a locking lug at the rear of the bolt, lending even greater strength. Some very high powered magnum rifles, such as the Weatherby's in America, have copied this idea but, as in the case of the Weatherby's, utilize six locking lugs at the head of the bolt for added strength. On the other hand, rifles such as the .303 Lee Enfield (British Commonwealth issue until the 1960's) have two locking lugs located towards the rear half of the bolt that lock into the bridge when the bolt is closed. The Mauser action makes for a more accurate rifle and a much stronger action. I know I would be frog marched out of any meeting of veterans in Britain or any part of the Commonwealth for the mere suggestion the Lee Enfield was not an accurate rifle but, with imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, and the majority of the bolt action rifles in the world having Mauser actions, what can I say?

I do not know of any other comparative advantages the Mauser has over other types of actions.

Once my seven day probationary period is up, I will be able to post diagrammatic pics to help explain these things.

The bolt does not have to be fully retracted to eject an empty cartridge. This is especially true of the 6.5 mm Carcano, as it is loaded with an almost freakishly long 162 grain slug (bullet). Once again, a photo would help to allow you to see the difference in length between a loaded and empty 6.5 Carcano cartridge. Once the bullet is gone from the cartridge, the cartridge will occupy far less length in the magazine opening space and, as soon as the neck of the empty cartridge clears the chamber, it will eject.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Redfern on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 7:56 pm

Traveller11 wrote:I spent a couple of hours this afternoon cycling empty .223 calibre cartridges through a .223 calibre bolt action rifle, both from the magazine and from the chamber (imitating a fired round).

While I was able to dent many empty cartridges, I was a little disturbed that the dents I made did not particularly resemble the dent seen on CE 543. The dents I made definitely looked as if something had struck the empty neck of the cartridge end on, giving an almost curled over look, while examination of photos of CE 543 gives one the impression that the empty neck cartridge was struck from the side, leaving an altogether different looking dent.

I am at a loss to explain how the dent seen in CE 543 could have been made by a rifle.
According to Michael Griffith, some people have been able to reproduce this effect in MC rifles by loading empty shells.

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/dent.htm

If this is true, does it open up the possibility that DPD created the dent by messing about with the rifle?


in saying this, I don't think the MC rifle found on the 6th floor was fired on Nov. 22nd.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 5:59 am

Redfern wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:I spent a couple of hours this afternoon cycling empty .223 calibre cartridges through a .223 calibre bolt action rifle, both from the magazine and from the chamber (imitating a fired round).

While I was able to dent many empty cartridges, I was a little disturbed that the dents I made did not particularly resemble the dent seen on CE 543. The dents I made definitely looked as if something had struck the empty neck of the cartridge end on, giving an almost curled over look, while examination of photos of CE 543 gives one the impression that the empty neck cartridge was struck from the side, leaving an altogether different looking dent.

I am at a loss to explain how the dent seen in CE 543 could have been made by a rifle.
According to Michael Griffith, some people have been able to reproduce this effect in MC rifles by loading empty shells.



If this is true, does it open up the possibility that DPD created the dent by messing about with the rifle?


in saying this, I don't think the MC rifle found on the 6th floor was fired on Nov. 22nd.
The interesting thing about many of the claims of reproducing the dent seen on CE 543, by attempting to re-chamber an empty brass cartridge into a 6.5 mm Carcano, is that the proof we are offered is based on hearsay. For instance, the only photo I am aware of to "prove" the FBI were able to reproduce a dented cartridge is the photo CE 557. CE 557 shows two empty brass cartridges, and neither of them has a dent visible.

I also find the results of the experiments of several of these researchers in the article you linked to suspect as well. Think about what this empty cartridge is doing when being loaded from the Carcano magazine. The bottom of the bolt face is pushing the base of the cartridge forward, yet there is nothing holding that cartridge down. It is very likely, as Chris Mills states, for the neck of the cartridge to catch on a lip below the barrel opening beneath the breech. However, since the bullet is travelling lengthwise, wouldn't it seem more likely to curl the lip of the cartridge  over, rather than denting it from the side? In order to dent the cartridge from the side on a protruberance, something would have to be holding the other side of the cartridge firm or the cartridge, unless caught by the lip, would merely ride up and over.

The one thing to remember about the JFK assassination is just how badly a certain group of people wants us to believe that Oswald acted alone on 22/11/63. And they are not all rabid, foaming at the mouth Lone Nutters. Much of the disinformation being spread about the assassination is so subtle, I doubt most would even recognize it as disinformation. The enigma of CE 543 is a classic example. Do you think you are the first person to make the obvious connection and think, "Hey, if a researcher can reproduce the dented cartridge by loading an empty cartridge from the magazine, I wonder if the Dallas Police could have done the same thing by "messing about" with an empty cartridge after the assassination?" The next logical conclusion, of course, in the mind of the unwary public, is that CE 543 was not dented at all when found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, and the disinfo agent's goal is accomplished. While all the while proclaiming his experiment is conclusive evidence of a second shooter (which even a few seconds of thought will prove it is not), his real goal is to plant a seed of doubt in your mind, and let you think you figured the whole thing out yourself.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 5:47 pm

So, anyone know why the Western Cartridge Co. 6.5x52mm Carcano ammunition had a very good chance of being manufactured prior to the end of the Second World War, and who it was manufactured for?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Redfern on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 6:23 pm



The dent was caused by a force applied at right angles to the longitudinal axis very near the rim. This is not compatible with any damage that would have been caused by loading the shell.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 7:16 pm

How do you know that?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 7:31 pm

ianlloyd wrote:How do you know that?
In another day or so, I will have completed my seven day probationary period and will be able to post links and photos on this forum. I will post a photo of one of my experimental .223 calibre empty cartridges and you will immediately see what Redfern is referring to.

When I attempted to load my empty .223 cartridges from the magazine, or when I "short-stroked" them, the cartridge was stopped in its forward motion and the lip of the neck curled over from the impact. In the photo of CE 543, the lip of the neck is still straight, only the side is dented in.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Redfern on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 12:49 am

ianlloyd wrote:How do you know that?
As Traveller11 said, any impediment to the forward motion of the shell would mean that the lip would have to show evidence of a force being applied in that direction - rather than squashed towards its centre as is the case with CE 543.

If there were an obstacle to the loading of the shell, you might expect to see striations at best and ridges due to buckling and/or localised tearing at worst.

 I wouldn't bet against the damage to CE 543 being caused by someone biting the shell at some point.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 6:21 am

Not to beat a dead cartridge to death, but unless the Carcano has some goofy design feature that when the bolt is operated a weird, unexplained "Oswalddidit" force is applied perpendicularly to the rim, I don't see how it's possible to deform a cartridge shell like this short cycling the bolt.
 
My son has a Weatherby 30-06 bolt action rifle (he reloads his rounds too) and I asked him if he ever saw a deformity like this caused by operating the rifle. Nada.
 
T11's pictures should tell the story.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by greg parker on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 6:52 am

I wouldn't bet against the damage to CE 543 being caused by someone biting the shell at some point.
I wouldn't argue with that. The small indent inside the larger dent could possibly be caused by something like a tooth (incisor?)

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 8:14 am

greg parker wrote:
I wouldn't bet against the damage to CE 543 being caused by someone biting the shell at some point.
I wouldn't argue with that. The small indent inside the larger dent could possibly be caused by something like a tooth (incisor?)
I agree, but any particular reason?  Other than a bullet fetish?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 8:43 am

Lee Farley wrote:
greg parker wrote:
I wouldn't bet against the damage to CE 543 being caused by someone biting the shell at some point.
I wouldn't argue with that. The small indent inside the larger dent could possibly be caused by something like a tooth (incisor?)
I agree, but any particular reason?  Other than a bullet fetish?
I think it's one of the Bullet Fairies who show up with special tools after Lone Nuts do their work and put dents in the side of cartridge shells. The CIA infiltrated the Fairy Union back during the Cold War and put all the little fellas on the payroll. They do what they're told and keep their damn mouths shut.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 9:56 am

My son just emailed me these comments after looking at the picture of CE 543:
Son of Stan wrote:I'd say that this kind of dent can definitely occur if you extract an empty case from the rifle and it falls 4 or 5 feet to the ground.

It happens to me mostly when I reload because when I shoot I'm not in a hurry and I've gotten good at extracting and catching the case with the same hand (mostly because I don't want it to hit a rock and dent the case).

Every once and a while I will accidentally knock a case off of my reloading table (about 4 to 5 feet high) and it'll strike the concrete below (neck first), flattening an end of the case in the same fashion as the photo you attached.

It doesn't ruin the case though. I just run it through my neck sizing die and it looks normal again.

The mouth of the case is the easiest part of the case to dent or compromise.  In fact, I only buy Lapua cases (which are some of the heaviest and most consistent cases available).

The 6.5 mm shoots a bullet with a diameter of .264".  A comparable case (that I've dented before in the same fashion) would be a 270 with a bullet diameter of .277".
Well, I think this dent as the result of a drop is unlikely given that the cases fell onto a wooden floor (?). And from only a foot or two at that (?). My son is not so sure so he's going to play around and eject some shells later and see if he can cause any similar dents.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 10:55 am

Actually, the 6.5x52mm Carcano is unique amongst 6.5/.257 calibre rifles in that it shoots a bullet .268" in diameter, unlike the .264" diameter bullets used by the other 6.5/.257 rifles. This is due to the 6.5 Carcano having deeper than normal rifling grooves cut into its barrel and, as a result, the copper alloy jacket of the Carcano is thicker than other 6.5 mm bullets. This fact alone makes it difficult to comprehend how the bullet that struck JFK in the head fragmented so badly.

I will take your son at his word that he has experienced denting of empty brass cartridge necks from dropping these cartridges onto hard surfaces such as concrete. However, in my experience, I have ejected empty cartridges onto boulders and into rock piles, and I do not recall seeing a dent such as seen on CE 543. I will take some empty cartridges and throw them into a rock pile, as an experiment.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 11:46 am

Son of Stan did a drop test of .270 cases about an hour ago. He dropped several from about 18 inches onto his wooden reloading bench. On some, he observed slight deformation of the mouth of the case. Then he dropped some cases about 5 feet onto the concrete floor. The one pictured was the one that showed the biggest dent.



Anyway, just a quick and dirty test FWIW.

The more I think about it, isn't this really a side issue? Because regardless whether the Carcano cases had dents or not, it doesn't mean they were or were not fired that day. Or whether they were or were not planted. Correct?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 7:10 pm

Redfern wrote:
ianlloyd wrote:How do you know that?
As Traveller11 said, any impediment to the forward motion of the shell would mean that the lip would have to show evidence of a force being applied in that direction - rather than squashed towards its centre as is the case with CE 543.

If there were an obstacle to the loading of the shell, you might expect to see striations at best and ridges due to buckling and/or localised tearing at worst.

 I wouldn't bet against the damage to CE 543 being caused by someone biting the shell at some point.
Would biting on the shell also leave a similar dent on the opposite side of the shell?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 7:11 pm

Stan Dane wrote:My son just emailed me these comments after looking at the picture of CE 543:
Son of Stan wrote:I'd say that this kind of dent can definitely occur if you extract an empty case from the rifle and it falls 4 or 5 feet to the ground.

It happens to me mostly when I reload because when I shoot I'm not in a hurry and I've gotten good at extracting and catching the case with the same hand (mostly because I don't want it to hit a rock and dent the case).

Every once and a while I will accidentally knock a case off of my reloading table (about 4 to 5 feet high) and it'll strike the concrete below (neck first), flattening an end of the case in the same fashion as the photo you attached.

It doesn't ruin the case though. I just run it through my neck sizing die and it looks normal again.

The mouth of the case is the easiest part of the case to dent or compromise.  In fact, I only buy Lapua cases (which are some of the heaviest and most consistent cases available).

The 6.5 mm shoots a bullet with a diameter of .264".  A comparable case (that I've dented before in the same fashion) would be a 270 with a bullet diameter of .277".
Well, I think this dent as the result of a drop is unlikely given that the cases fell onto a wooden floor (?). And from only a foot or two at that (?). My son is not so sure so he's going to play around and eject some shells later and see if he can cause any similar dents.
Weren't some of the shells "found" in the joint between the wooden floor and the brick wall? If so, could the shell have hit the brick wall first?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 8:18 pm

ianlloyd wrote:Would biting on the shell also leave a similar dent on the opposite side of the shell?
ianlloyd wrote:Weren't some of the shells "found" in the joint between the wooden floor and the brick wall? If so, could the shell have hit the brick wall first?
Here's what I think at this point:
 
1) The dent in CE 543 was not caused by operating the Carcano rifle. Traveller11 has convinced me of that through his detailed explanations and knowledge of the workings of bolt action rifles, and by the tests he performed. Rifles just don't make those kind of dents.
 
2) The dent was caused by an external, impact force, such as dropping the case on the floor (before, during, or after the assassination), or having it fly out and hit something when it was ejected (before, during, or after the assassination). My son's drop test showed me that empty cases (.270 caliber anyway) can be easily dented if dropped or if they strike something hard.
 
3) If somebody bit down on the case (why anybody would do that is beyond me), then I would think there would be opposing dents on opposite sides of the case. I don't see that on CE 543, but that still doesn't rule out the possibility that somebody chomped on it.
 
I think that sucker was dropped or hit some solid object when ejected before, during, or after the assassination. But whenever that was, it was after the cartridge had been fired.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

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