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Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Redfern on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 5:49 am

ianlloyd wrote:Weren't some of the shells "found" in the joint between the wooden floor and the brick wall? If so, could the shell have hit the brick wall first?
Fritz picked the shells up before they were photographed and dusted for fingerprints.

Tom Alyea said the shells were bunched much closer together than in the official photograph (probably taken hours later).

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/SN/carcases.htm

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 6:11 am

Redfern wrote:
ianlloyd wrote:Weren't some of the shells "found" in the joint between the wooden floor and the brick wall? If so, could the shell have hit the brick wall first?
Fritz picked the shells up before they were photographed and dusted for fingerprints.

Tom Alyea said the shells were bunched much closer together than in the official photograph (probably taken hours later).

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/SN/carcases.htm
Yes, I am aware of Alyea's claims, hence my writing "found". Who corroborates Alyea?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Redfern on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 7:31 am

ianlloyd wrote:
Redfern wrote:
ianlloyd wrote:Weren't some of the shells "found" in the joint between the wooden floor and the brick wall? If so, could the shell have hit the brick wall first?
Fritz picked the shells up before they were photographed and dusted for fingerprints.

Tom Alyea said the shells were bunched much closer together than in the official photograph (probably taken hours later).

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/SN/carcases.htm
Yes, I am aware of Alyea's claims, hence my writing "found". Who corroborates Alyea?
Luke Mooney testified that Fritz picked up the shells.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by ianlloyd on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 7:43 am

Mooney testified that he when he saw them, they were spread out as shown in CE510, before Fritz picked them up, not bunched together.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 5:32 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Son of Stan did a drop test of .270 cases about an hour ago. He dropped several from about 18 inches onto his wooden reloading bench. On some, he observed slight deformation of the mouth of the case. Then he dropped some cases about 5 feet onto the concrete floor. The one pictured was the one that showed the biggest dent.



Anyway, just a quick and dirty test FWIW.

The more I think about it, isn't this really a side issue? Because regardless whether the Carcano cases had dents or not, it doesn't mean they were or were not fired that day. Or whether they were or were not planted. Correct?
Hi Stan

Would it be possible, for comparison purposes, to get side on photos of the two cartridges your son experimented with? Something like this evidence photo of CE 543, 544 and 545 would do nicely.


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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 5:49 pm

Interesting reading to help confuse...err, clear up the designations of rifle bullets.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/cartridge_names.htm

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Dec 2013, 8:29 pm

Stan, maybe the dent bit could be true.... but I don't see how it could cause that little dent inside the flattening.

Fairies with tools on CIA dime theory is looking good.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 06 Dec 2013, 7:55 am

Traveller11 wrote:Hi Stan
 
Would it be possible, for comparison purposes, to get side on photos of the two cartridges your son experimented with? Something like this evidence photo of CE 543, 544 and 545 would do nicely.
Hi T11

He may have already fixed those dents, but if he hasn't, I'll have him take the picture you request. He's off cramming for his finals now so it might be awhile before I hear from him.

greg parker wrote:Stan, maybe the dent bit could be true.... but I don't see how it could cause that little dent inside the flattening.
 
Fairies with tools on CIA dime theory is looking good.
Hi Greg

I have no idea how that dent was caused other than the case struck something or something stuck it. I Googled different forms of dented case necks and I saw some cases dented similarly to CE 543 but I didn't explore all of the possible reasons for these.
 
It's hard to predict exactly where cases will fly when ejected. If they are thrown onto hard concrete or gravel with sufficient force at the right angle, they can get dinged. Perhaps even with a little dimple in the dent, like a rock ding in the fender of a car? The possibilities are endless.
 
Do we even know where CE 543/544/545 came from anyway?  Could it have been a crime scene switcheroo? Or do we have complete faith in the chain of custody here?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Sat 07 Dec 2013, 4:58 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:Hi Stan
 
Would it be possible, for comparison purposes, to get side on photos of the two cartridges your son experimented with? Something like this evidence photo of CE 543, 544 and 545 would do nicely.
Hi T11

He may have already fixed those dents, but if he hasn't, I'll have him take the picture you request. He's off cramming for his finals now so it might be awhile before I hear from him.

greg parker wrote:Stan, maybe the dent bit could be true.... but I don't see how it could cause that little dent inside the flattening.
 
Fairies with tools on CIA dime theory is looking good.
Hi Greg

I have no idea how that dent was caused other than the case struck something or something stuck it. I Googled different forms of dented case necks and I saw some cases dented similarly to CE 543 but I didn't explore all of the possible reasons for these.
 
It's hard to predict exactly where cases will fly when ejected. If they are thrown onto hard concrete or gravel with sufficient force at the right angle, they can get dinged. Perhaps even with a little dimple in the dent, like a rock ding in the fender of a car? The possibilities are endless.
 
Do we even know where CE 543/544/545 came from anyway?  Could it have been a crime scene switcheroo? Or do we have complete faith in the chain of custody here?
That's okay, we can wait. After all, it has been 50 years. The reason I would like to see a side on view is that the photo of the more severely dented case neck (the one dropped five feet onto concrete), upon closer examination, appears to be bent over on its end, rather than dented from the side. Perhaps your son did not understand the parameters of the experiment.

With the weekend upon us, I have more time to devote to experimenting. Just for variety, I have a box of empty .243 calibre rifle cartridges plus half a box of empty 7mm Remington Magnum cartridges. Preliminary results do not look good, though. As the shoulder of an empty cartridge protrudes further than the neck, an empty cartridge dropped flat will land on the shoulder or the side of the cartridge, and not the neck. If the cartridge is dropped vertically (neck down) it will strike end on, replicating my end on results with the rifle by curling over the edge of the lip.

There is a very narrow range of angle an empty cartridge can be dropped at to make it land on the side of its neck. This is further complicated by the majority of the empty cartridge's mass being in its base. I have observed, when dropping empty cartridges, there is a tendency for them to want to descend bottom first, regardless of how they begin the drop unless dropped neck down.

This difference in mass between neck and base of an empty cartridge, plus the fact the shoulder of the empty cartridge is very close to the neck and very far from the base, complicates things further for our experiment.  If an empty cartridge is dropped so that the side of its neck will contact the floor, at the moment of impact, the neck will stop and the rest of the cartridge will continue down until the entire side of the cartridge has struck the floor. If the empty cartridge were a straight tube, it is possible the side of the neck would be dented, as it would take the full force of the impact. However, it is not a straight tube, as can be seen in your photos. What will actually happen is that the side of the neck will very very briefly contact the floor, the empty cartridge will continue down and the shoulder will next contact the floor. Once the shoulder contacts the floor, the cartridge will continue downwards, pivoting on the shoulder, and actually LIFT the neck off the floor. Suffice it to say, the impact force to the neck is minimized and the side of the empty cartridge neck will not dent.

As for Oswald ejecting an empty cartridge into a brick wall, I should remind everyone that LHO was supposed to have been in the SE corner of the TSBD. The 6.5 Carcano ejected cartridges to the right and the brick wall would have been ahead of LHO or to his left.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 10 Dec 2013, 11:32 am

Side by side view of the dropped .270 shells from a week ago. The left one was dropped about 5 feet onto concrete and the right one was dropped about 18 inches onto a wooden bench (they were both dropped so they would impact on the mouth of the case).

This view shows a different deformation than what is seen on CE 543. Both these cases as "folded" or "curled" into the mouth, smoothly and uniformly, whereas CE 543 has that little dimple in the larger dent, as if it hit with a tiny ball-peen hammer. At least to my eye anyway.


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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Guest on Tue 10 Dec 2013, 2:54 pm

Good photo, Stan. It clearly shows the curled over lip.

Well, the question is in front of us again. Just how did that dent get into the lip of CE 543? I'm almost thinking we should be looking at the 6.5 Carcano rifle (wish I could get my hands on one) a little bit more closely. I scoffed at the theory (HSCA?) that said if a 6.5 Carcano bolt was pulled back hard enough and fast enough, during the ejection of an empty cartridge, the cartridge would make a 180° spin and strike the neck somewhere on the bridge of the rifle, denting it in the fashion of CE 543. Hmm...

Anyone have access to a 6.5 Carcano?

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 11 Dec 2013, 3:57 am

Traveller11 wrote:Anyone have access to a 6.5 Carcano?
T11:
 
You seem to be the only forum member who knows a lot about rifles and has experience with them. It's worth asking, but I doubt anyone here has a 6.5 Carcano hanging over their fireplace. Have you considered finding a suitable Carcano and adding it to your firearms collection? I did a quick check online last night and saw some 6.5 Carcanos for sale in the $150-300 (US) range. The only way to explore the denting possibilities of the bolt action might be to buy one. (Easy for me to say, huh?)
 
And when you were all done ejecting spent cartridges, you could even use the 6.5 to hunt deer. Simply order cartridges loaded with the special Magic Bullets and after you bag your trophy buck, the bullet would fall out at your feet in such pristine condition, you could reuse it!

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 11 Dec 2013, 4:08 am

Provided the buck is made of three feet of wood.

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Re: Ray Acker and the MC Ammo

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