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greg parker
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 11:26 am
From the Fritz files

Dallas police search and seizures  Dpdsea10
As far as I am aware, Steve Thomas was the first, but if not, certainly the most vocal, about the timings of the two searches making no sense if the N Beckley address was only discovered via a phone number found during the Paine house search. This is per the deputies who took part in that search. Fritz on the other hand, claimed to the WC he was given the Beckley address by another cop whose name he could not recall. This, if true, could account for the timings, but does sound more like CYA to cover for those timings. Especially when you add on that he gave yet a different account in his interrogation report where he claimed he got the address off Oswald himself. 

The 3:00pm for N. Beckley however, is not strictly correct as far as the actual search goes. That was the time of arrival. They waited at least 2 hours for a search warrant that they probably didn't need since the owners were being cooperative. 

This long wait for the search warrant becomes important in relation to the Irving search because it coincides with when the police were carting off all the evidence from there - obtained without a warrant.

We now come to the Saturday search of the Irving address.
Dallas police search and seizures  2ndirv10

And here is what Inspector Kelley of the Secret Service gave as the background and reason for the second search of the Paine home.

Dallas police search and seizures  Oswald10

Let's start be stating that the Rose and Stovall report called the first search of the home "methodical". This methodical search encompassed taking items which the Paines protested belonged to them. 

You would also have to believe that any methodical search would include a  common area of the house such as the garage - especially since this was "known" to be the place the weapon was kept, Additionally, both Ruth and Marina would have provided details of where Oswald's possessions were mainly kept. The sea bags in particular would have been identified as Lee's and searched on the Friday - but even if they were not so identified, it would have mattered little to a police force which was carting out record albums owned by the Paines. 

Additional to that - how on earth could they possibly miss anything in the broom cupboard known as Room 0 at the N Beckley address? The only additional places they could have looked would be the ceiling cavity and under the floor boards.

So the whole notion that they needed to interrogate Oswald on Saturday as to where he kept most of his belongings, is ludicrous on its face.

No. The sole reason for the Saturday search was that they found nothing of value on the first search (save Junie's blankey). Time to go back and "find" all the juicy stuff we "missed" in our first methodical search. 

And we know they hit the jackpot with a whole slew of shit - not least being the BYP.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
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steely dan
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 12:18 pm
The two hour wait at N Beckley looks like house guarding while contents are swapped from O H Lee to Lee Oswald. The size of the room will dictate how much "evidence" can be stashed. Ruth will "find" what was missed.

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Checkmate.

greg parker
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 12:20 pm
steely dan wrote:The two hour wait at N Beckley looks like house guarding while contents are swapped from O H Lee to Lee Oswald. The size of the room will dictate how much "evidence" can be stashed. Ruth will "find" what was missed.
That's how it's looking to me, as well.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Vinny
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:15 pm
Exactly. Time to plant more evidence to make the framing worked.
greg parker
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 3:11 pm
Vinny wrote:Exactly. Time to plant more evidence to make the framing worked.
Vinny, if a cop told  Fritz, or Oswald himself told Fritz about N Beckley, the timing of each team at each address is unremarkable and Weatherford and Walthers are lying. 

Fritz goes so far as to state in his interrogation report that as soon as Oswald gave him the Beckley address he "instructed the officers to make a thorough search of both of these places." Both teams did go out more or less simultaneously, I am certain of it.

Fritz's problem is he shoots himself in the foot with two different stories.

In the end, none of the three versions are believable.

There is reason to suggest that the phone number was placed in RP's book by someone other than herself as the writing does not match hers. And the whole story about Oswald giving them the number so he could be notified when Marina was ready to give birth, but then not telling them to ask for "Mr Lee" is too idiotic for words. 

So the above goes against the Weatherford/Walters version - as does the timing of the team's arrival at N Beckley.

Fritz could have stuck to saying Oswald gave him the address, but changes his story before the WC and stated instead he got it from a cop whose name he promises to find out - but never does. 

Were all three stories false?

Did Fritz in fact get the address from the FBI, or one of the MI Reserves in the force, or from Decker? Someone else?

Invoking Occam's razor here for the sake of Lance... the simplest explanation is his interrogation report version - that Oswald gave it to him. But then, this is why Occam's Razor can't be used. If Oswald gave it to him, why do we have two more versions - including a second one from fritz - which includes such detail as another cop informing him that they can indeed find the officer who told him. 

Maybe the second story was needed when Fritz realized that no one but Bookhout was supporting his interrogation account? 

The Weathorford/Walthers version is more problematic as Weatherford wrote his report on Nov 23. All I can think of is that it was the first cover story, replaced by Fritz's Oswald-told-me story, replaced in turn by the officer-told-me story. In this case,  Walthers would have had no choice but to support the Weatherford affidavit when before the commission, so his sworn testimony still stands at odds with Fritz's sworn testimony.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Steve Thomas
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 6:19 pm
Greg,

I have tried to look at the Chain of Command in terms of the Flow of Information.
If you look at page 29 of Batchelor's Exhibit 5002
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
page 29 of the pdf file,
Potts, Senkel, Turner, and Moore were all in the DPD's Criminal Investigation Division's Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

Both Fritz and Curry told the WC that they had never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald, and had no idea he was living in Dallas.

Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page


The list of employees is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed.



If what I believe is true, I noted a couple of things:

  1. Harvey Lee Oswald was not in the DPD Intelligence Files
  2. Charles Givens, who had a record of narcotic arrests; and as such, would fall under the purview of the Special Service Bureau is listed as NONE. Is this possibly an indication that Givens was an undercover informant to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau?


If Oswald was not in the DPD's Intelligence Files, where was Fritz getting his information?
He started talking to Oswald at 2:20, and was already dispatching people to N. Beckley at 2:40.

The one person who I can find in common is Billy Senkel, who rode in the Pilot car with Colonels Lumpkin and Whitmeyer, who were associated with the 4150th USAR (US Army Reserve) Training School, of which Lumpkin was the Commandant and where I believe Whitmeyer "taught intelligence" ) as Winston Lawson told the HSCA.

1/31/78 HSCA interview of Secret Service agent Winston Lawson (RIF#18010074-10396)
and who was one of the officers dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley.

Either that, or it's coming from that strange little side trip Fritz made to Decker's office on his way back downtown from the TSBD after learning that Oswald was "missing".

Steve Thomas
greg parker
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 12:19 am
Thanks Steve


Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page
As you may recall, I have a non-conspiratorial explanation for the way the name and address was written. 

Eric Kaminsky, who took the names at the door was also a detective in the Special Service Bureau.

FWIW, he got demoted a few years later.


The list of employees is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed.
Yeah, I've puzzled over it too. The best I've been able to come up with is that they were only interested in identifying those in the subversive files. Maybe Ms Dean was in the ACLU or some such?


If what I believe is true, I noted a couple of things:

Harvey Lee Oswald was not in the DPD Intelligence Files

Charles Givens, who had a record of narcotic arrests; and as such, would fall under the purview of the Special Service Bureau is listed as NONE. Is this possibly an indication that Givens was an undercover informant to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau?
I don't buy the "Harvey Lee Oswald" intel angle. Kaminsky simply read the library card upside down.  Any other files in that name, imo, would have similar innocent explanations because the info comes from eg Kaminsky's error or someone else's error caused by someone having 3 first names with some documents requiring last name first. Having worked in a huge bureaucracy, mistakes with names is pretty common. The 26 volumes are riddled with such errors.

My explanation above that they were only interested in subversives is one explanation. What you say above should be considered as well. They knew he had a record. IIRC, they broadcast that he had a record when they put the call out to look for him.

If Oswald was not in the DPD's Intelligence Files, where was Fritz getting his information?
He started talking to Oswald at 2:20, and was already dispatching people to N. Beckley at 2:40.
That's the $64 question. 


The one person who I can find in common is Billy Senkel, who rode in the Pilot car with Colonels Lumpkin and Whitmeyer, who were associated with the 4150th USAR (US Army Reserve) Training School, of which Lumpkin was the Commandant and where I believe Whitmeyer "taught intelligence" ) as Winston Lawson told the HSCA.
That may prove a very astute observation. Senkel seems to be instrumental in arriving at OH Lee being ID'd as Oswald.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 11 Oct 2019, 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Steve Thomas
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 5:41 am
Greg,

You wrote, "Yeah, I've puzzled over it to. The best I've been able to come up with is that they were only interested in identifying those in the subversive files."

Though that list of employees is dated 11/22/63, in Westphal's interview with Larry Sneed in No More Silence, he talks about going home, and then returning to his office at the Fairgrounds to write up his report of a man at the Trade Mart with a “Free Cuba” flag. So, I'm not sure what time of the evening that list was actually typed up. While he was writing his Report, Captain Gannaway called and asked him to check the names of the TSBD employees against the Department's Intelligence files. Westphal said, “We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them, you couldn't read the names”.


V.J. Brian testified to the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. He told the Commission that he was a “detective in the criminal intelligence section”, as was Roy Westphal.


Mr. BRIAN. Lieutenant Revill, myself, a detective, O. J. Tarver, and a detective, Roy W. Westphal and we gave a man a lift, and I don't remember whether he was a CID, I don't know the man, I don't remember whether he was a CIC agent or a CID or OSI, he was some type of, as I recall, Army intelligence man.


He only describes searching the TSBD and said, " in fact, I didn't have time to (write a report of the Hosty/Revill conversation) because when I got back there (to the second floor office of the Special Service Bureau, located directly below Captain Fritz's office on the third floor ) they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "Start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40#relPageId=57&tab=page


The list of employees is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed. And V.J. Brian in his WC testimony.

You may be right about Mrs. Dean being in the ACLU. I have looked before in vain.


Greg,

You wrote, "That may prove a very astute observation. Senkel seems to be instrumental in arriving at OH Lee being ID'd as Oswald." and "I don't buy the "Harvey Lee Oswald" intel angle."

I do buy it.

Go back and read Earlene Robert's WC testimony. Twice she said that when the police showed up at 1026 N. Beckley, they were looking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

I personally think that O.H. Lee is   Oswald, comma, Harvey Lee.
(But that's just me).

Steve Thomas
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 7:54 am
Regarding Ruth Dean you have a point Steve.

She is one of the very few being interviewed Feb 1964, by the Criminal Intelligence Division.
This is the same week when Jim Leavelle showed up at Victoria Adams' new place she had moved in a day before without regging for anything anywhere at all. She was monitored as well.

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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 8:17 am
That Molina was being watched is a given...

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greg parker
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Dallas police search and seizures  Empty Re: Dallas police search and seizures

on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 9:02 am
Steve Thomas wrote:Greg,

You wrote, "That may prove a very astute observation. Senkel seems to be instrumental in arriving at OH Lee being ID'd as Oswald." and "I don't buy the "Harvey Lee Oswald" intel angle."

I do buy it.

Go back and read Earlene Robert's WC testimony. Twice she said that when the police showed up at 1026 N. Beckley, they were looking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

I personally think that O.H. Lee is   Oswald, comma, Harvey Lee.
(But that's just me).

Steve Thomas
Decker - as well as the cops who came knocking at N Beckley, IMO, were going from the list taken at the door. It did not need to have been typed up for the list showing Oswald to be seen/talked about... maybe even copied and shared with those involved. You said it yourself -- the list was full of misspelled names/incorrect names. 

According to the interrogation reports, Oswald allegedly said he registered under OH Lee because the landlady misunderstood him. Not sure how that works.

Roberts: You name?

Oswald: Lee H Oswald (or Lee Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald or Oswald pause Lee Harvey or Oswald pause Lee H)

Roberts: Okay... so it's OH Lee then?

Oswald: Yeah, close enough for government work.


Meanwhile back at Irving, the girls are telling the authorities that he used OH Lee to avoid FBI harassment. This is the same Oswald who used his correct name at Bledsoe's just prior to N Beckley and who supposedly was so un-paranoid, he had a nameplate on his letterbox at Neely St where he was allegedly planning to assassinate a  former Army General.

This is the same Mrs Roberts who told the press that Oswald loved reading westerns and she never saw any pistol, holster or commie literature in the room.

And then we have the mysterious Mr H Lee who we know for certain was staying there and that OH Lee by odd coincidence just happened to occupy Room 0. Was it this Mr Lee who liked westerns and never had a pistol or commie literature? Was it this Mr Lee who occupied Room 0?. Was it seeing "Room 0 H Lee" that morphed into reading OH Lee instead? Personally, I think it is the best explanation.  

Herbert Lee, like Oswald was a rather generic looking young white male.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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