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greg parker
greg parker
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 10:18 am
My comments follow in this color. Although I have only summarized Fritz's list items, I have done so in a manner not to alter the information being conveying

1. M-C rifle with Japanese scope found on 6th floor. Originally identified as a Mauser

2. Shells found near the southeast window of same floor. The shells were photographed in situ, but look "posed" rather than randomly scattered

3. A palm-print on a box under the above window belonged to Lee Oswald. Fritz notes that a thumb print was also found. The palm-print is meaningless since Oswald's was getting stock from those boxes. In noting the the thumb print, Fritz does not state it belonged to Oswald, It is apparent though that he wants that assumption to be made

4. A palm-print from the underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip belonged to Oswald. There was also a partial print lifted from the trigger housing. There is strong evidence that the palm-print was planted since it was not photographed prior to the rifle being sent to the FBI who failed to find the print - which was only placed into evidence after it was returned to DPD. In the interim, Oswald had palm-prints taken in Fritz's office which could have been the real source

5. Wrapping paper fashioned into a bag big enough to carry the rifle was found on the 6th floor. Oswald was seen carrying a large package wrapped in the same brown paper by Frazier and Randle that morning. After driving Oswald to work, Frazier saw Oswald carry the package inside. The wrapping paper was determined to have come from the TSBD itself. The testimony of the wrapper, Troy West virtually rules out as impossible that Oswald could have taken the paper and made it into a bag. No one saw Oswald take such paper home. The bag described as one carried by Oswald the next day was too small to carry the rifle unless it was broken down. No oil or grease was found in the bag. It took until Dec 2 to break Frazier and get him to agree that the bag could be the same one the police had - despite previously passing a polygraph at a time he was claiming it was just 5 and dime store cheap, light crinkly paper. The bah was never photographed in situ

6. Roy Truly's information that Lee Oswald had gone missing and also the further information that Officer Baker stopped Oswald as Oswald was coming down the stairs. This occurred on the 3rd or 4th floor stairway. Oswald was released after being identified as an employee by Roy Truly. Seems that by the 23rd of December, Fritz is still not up-to-date on the story. This is rally just what happened on the first floor transplanted to an upper floor. We now from the Texas Attorney General Report that Truly and Det, Kaminsky were stationed at the front entrance. Kaminsky was tasked with obtaining names and contact details of those cleared to leave, while Truly was tasked with verifying they were employees. We know from Oswald himself that he had an encounter with a police officer at the front entrance and that his boss vouched for him. The Texas AG report, Oswald's interrogation statements and the earliest news accounts quoting Det. Hicks are all in harmony. So when we are told about an encounter between Oswald, Truly and Baker on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th floor, we are being lied to. It was between Oswald, Truly and Kaminsky on the first floor. And when we are told that Baker released Oswald after Truly vouched for him as an employee, we are being lied to. Truly vouched for Oswald to Kaminsky on the first floor as part of the clearing of the clearing of the building

7. A bullet found on Connally's stretcher and fragments of a bullet taken from Connally's body came from the same rifle. The chain of possession of the stretcher bullet is largely unknown/disputed and the fragments from Connally allegedly more than account for anything missing from the stretcher bullet

8. Oswald's arrest shirt and the blanket used to allegedly wrap the rifle  had fibers could be the ones recovered from the rifle, according to the FBI. This type of analysis is now known to be flawed and to have helped convict innocent people. Exact matching is not possible and cross-contamination is easy when when very strict forensic protocols are not followed. It is self-evident that Dallas police were haphazard in the handling of any evidence in their possession

9. Mrs Lee Oswald identified the rifle as resembling the rifle she had seen in the garage at Irving. "Resembling" and being the "one and the same" has a large margin for error when this evidence comes from someone who admitted she did not know the difference between a shotgun and a rifle - as well, there are good reasons to doubt the rifle was ever stored in that blanket which she claims she peaked into and saw the weapon

10. Two photos found in the same Irving garage showed Oswald holding a rifle that looked identical to the one found on the 6th floor. Additionally, he was wearing a pistol that resembled the pistol used to kill Tippit. The police checked Oswald's former addresses to locate the address where the photos were taken. We are all well aware of the myriad issues around these photos, so I won't list them yet again. There is evidence that police were given the address by Mike Paine, rather then discovering it by any process of checking past addresses. But this whole question about where the photos were taken raises an issue I don't recall being raised before. Since the police had no idea how recent the photos were, where is the evidence showing that they ever checked the Paine house or the N. Beckley rooming house as the location of the shots? Why didn't the police ask Ruth if she knew where they were taken? Or ask Marina when she came in on Saturday to visit Lee? 

-------------
more to come


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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steely dan
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 11:03 am
Quite a list so far, Greg. Earlier today I was reading old EF threads and found this one. Despite our misgivings, Mr McCoy was most impressed with the DPD performance. Just like Lance I guess.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10894-interesting-hsca-testimony/

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greg parker
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 11:49 am
steely dan wrote:Quite a list so far, Greg. Earlier today I was reading old EF threads and found this one. Despite our misgivings, Mr McCoy was most impressed with the DPD performance. Just like Lance I guess.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10894-interesting-hsca-testimony/
Yes, it was a masterclass in scrambling and shambling toward a (barely) usable narrative framework with CYA side-dishes.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
steely dan
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 12:01 pm
greg parker wrote:
steely dan wrote:Quite a list so far, Greg. Earlier today I was reading old EF threads and found this one. Despite our misgivings, Mr McCoy was most impressed with the DPD performance. Just like Lance I guess.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10894-interesting-hsca-testimony/
Yes, it was a masterclass in scrambling and shambling toward a (barely) usable narrative framework with CYA side-dishes.
I did enjoy Cooper saying that Kennedy was shot in the throat and the bullet then hit JC. Tex Avery can reproduce it no doubt.
Anyhooo, back your list that the finest legal minds missed...

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 4:54 pm
11. Officers found two clipped magazine advertisements in the Irving garage for the same type weapon as offered by Klein's. Is there a word for a collector of mail order ads? It seems Lee did have an interest in mail order weapons, as told by Adrian Alba: "He pursued the issue of ordering guns, and how many guns had I ever ordered, and how long did it take to get them, and where had I ordered guns from----" Sounds like an undercover investigation of mail order weapons to me. Oswald did lay it on thick with Alba, who also told the Commission "I think he said he had several rifles and, several pistols, but he did not go into the nature of the arms, or how much, or what they were."

12. In Oswald's wallet we found an identification card and a registration card in the name of Alex Hidell. The ID and registration card were one and the same Selective Service Card - and it was in the name of Alek James Hidell - not Alex Hidell. There is no evidence that this card existed prior to Friday night and more likely, Saturday. On the other hand, there is much circumstantial evidence supporting a Friday night or Saturday manufacture of this card. The card itself was useless as ID because of the addition of a photo to a non-photo card.  The addition of the photo did have one affect though - it allowed the authorities to link Oswald to the Hidell alias and thus to the weapons order

13. Postal inspectors informed us that at one time, a box had been rented in the name of Alex [sic] Hidell. However the handwriting on the application was Lee Oswald's. This was the box that Klein's shipped the rifle to. The most successful solver of murders in history seems to be having trouble accurately describing his own evidence. What Fritz was told - as far as the record shows now - is that the box was taken out by Oswald himself, but that portion of the application which showed who else had access to the box was destroyed - apparently against PO regs. Oswald himself claimed that he did not come upon the Hidell name until he was in New Orleans. If true, Hidell could not have been listed. It is highly likely however that Marina was listed, as Lee himself worked too far from this box to collect the mail himself. We do know Marina was listed in New Orleans, perhaps for the same reason, but not on the last box because Lee worked quite close to it. It is also possible that Marina was occasionally given a ride by Ruth to collect this mail. Ruth did pick Marina up on the day the rifle was ordered and again on the day it arrived in Dallas

14. In Oswald's wallet was a card identifying him as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Really? this is among the most important evidence against the accused? FPCC members are pre-disposed to murder?

15. Letters showing Oswald had corresponded with VT Lee and Arnold Johnson were found. As above. The only additional comment is that the nature of this correspondence indicates an attempt to smear the FPCC by association with the Communist Party

16. Oswald has a notebook filled with the names of friends in Russia, the telephone number and part of General Walker's name, along the name of FBI agent Hosty and his license plate number. As above. How is any of this incriminating? He lived in the Soviet Union and made friends there, Walker had been the subject of discussion raised by others at a party and Hosty had been harassing Marina.

17. A bus transfer was found in Oswald's pocket which was identified by the bus driver who carried Oswald a short distance after the killing.  This is a direct quote rather than a summary in order to show how it clearly avoids stating that McWatters' Id'd Oswald - all he ID'd was the ticket - which was not found on Oswald in any initial searches. He stated during his testimony that he believed he was there to ID Milton Jones and merely picked Oswald as the closest in looks. Fritz, in avoiding saying there was an ID of Oswald, seems cognizant of the problem

18. Oswald was positively identified by taxi driver William Whaley as the man he picked up near the Greyhound bus station and took to the 500 block of N Beckley. Fritz has no such issue here in saying Whaley ID'd Oswald because that is a fact. But the other issues with Whaley are many and varied, including admitting anyone could have ID'd Oswald in the line-up because of his complaining; his description of Oswald as a drunk who had been sober for a couple days; the location he dropped him; the time the trip took; his manner of recording fares; the clothing description

19. A map of Dallas was found at the N Beckley boarding house show various markings, including one at the scene of the assassination. What appeared to be communist literature was found. Even the commission accepted that the map had nothing to do with the assassination - it was used by Oswald to find his way around town to various job interviews, culminating in that job at the scene of the crime. As for the communist literature - if such was there, the very snoopy Mrs Roberts would have found it and had his ass booted out. Instead, she reported to the media the only literature he had was a bunch of westerns. Oddly, these were not found by the cops. Hmmm

20. Oswald was carrying at the time of his arrest, the pistol that was used to shoot Tippit. Yet the shells at the scene were initially identified as from an automatic, the pistol itself was later found not to work, at least one witness identified McDonald as the only person with a pistol and last but not least, it is very difficult to imagine sitting in any comfort in a theater seat with a pistol shoved down your waistband. Has anyone tried it? Would be interesting to see what they say


more to come

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
greg parker
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sat 12 Oct 2019, 10:42 pm
21. The empty cartridge cases found by the Davis sisters in front of their home at 400 E Tenth St where they had seen Oswald reloading the gun. Four bullets were recovered from Tippit's body and were of the same caliber as the gun Oswald had when arrested. We have already shown that the shells were originally identified as coming from an automatic. This short clip further explains



22. Helen Markham saw Oswald shoot Tippit and positively identified him in a line-up. Tippit was shot at 1:18. Several other witnesses identified Oswakd as the man they saw running from the scene toward the theater. WW Scoggins also saw Oswald shoot Tippit and identified him in a line-up. Markham was so hysterical thy had to give her smelling salts prior to the line-up. She was also very much compromised as she was raised as the sister of a former Barrow Gang member Floyd Hamilton - a man whom Sheriff Decker had helped get pardoned and gain employment with Dallas power broker, and good friend of both Decker and Fritz, WO Bankston. Bankston himself had once been named as a middle man to fencers for stolen goods. Hamilton was providing "guidance" for local young parolees as part of a charity he was starting up. Markham's son James was a parolee and had been part of gang doing break and enters and stealing cars - both specialties of Hamilton.  In short, Markham was compromised way up past the kazoo and it is hardly any wonder she was hysterical. James meanwhile would be arrested for breach of parole shortly after talking to Marguerite Oswald, Mark Lane and a reporter. During this arrest, James would fall through a second story window breaking his leg. Scoggins was not a witness to the shooting, but he viewed the same skewed and poorly executed line-up as Whaley

23. The police have obtained 40 to 50 affidavits in support of the previous 23 items. It's hard to argue with that. They did obtain a slew of affidavits. It was the biggest waste of paper since Albert Conehead Doyle wrote his epic, "Ode to Elizabeth, the Lizard Queen: Long May Her Corgis Rain Over Her"


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29121#relPageId=1&tab=page

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 2:35 am
Regarding 2: there are two sources who said that Fritz took the shells out of his pocket and tossed them back in situ. It may take a few days before I can name the sources. I think Alyea is one of them

Regarding 3: there  were 15 palm prints on that particular box...

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:17 am
barto wrote:Regarding 2: there are two sources who said that Fritz took the shells out of his pocket and tossed them back in situ. It may take a few days before I can name the sources. I think Alyea is one of them

Regarding 3: there  were 15 palm prints on that particular box...
I suspected the shell's looked "posed" for want of a better term.

The 15 palm-prints is about what you would expect.

If you can dig out the sources for both 2 and 3, that'd be great.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:24 pm
The shells
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20482-jfk-case-exhibit-one-bullet-shells/

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 8:32 pm
The four cartons closest to the south–eastern window were examined for prints. According to the Warren Report, they contained “20 identifiable fingerprints and 8 palmprints”, as well as a number of indistinct and fragmentary prints, at least some of which were no doubt from other TSBD employees.


http://22november1963.org.uk/oswald-fingerprint-palmprint-evidence



We also know that Truly did not want anyone else to be finger printed any more

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 9:44 pm
We also know that Truly did not want anyone else to be finger printed any more
Yep. He specified who should not be fingerprinted - and got his way.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



https://www.thenewdisease.space
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 11:36 pm
The empty shells found at the scene of the Tippit shooting were not tested for fingerprints at the scene, even though the police were testing for other fingerprints at the time.

Steve Thomas
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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:21 am
Apparently because they do not contain any finger prints, whoever may have had them in their hands. Same with the 9 mm in Hill's hands of the gun he had tossed shortly before Oswald got clobbered in the T.T.  Wink

But that all important Beckley holster and Tippit white jacket must have been filled to the  brim with Oz's prints yet they both failed to test 'em. Well failed........

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:29 am
greg parker wrote:
steely dan wrote:Quite a list so far, Greg. Earlier today I was reading old EF threads and found this one. Despite our misgivings, Mr McCoy was most impressed with the DPD performance. Just like Lance I guess.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10894-interesting-hsca-testimony/
Yes, it was a masterclass in scrambling and shambling toward a (barely) usable narrative framework with CYA side-dishes.

HaHaHa

The Dallas police were responsible for the early collection of evidence which came to be of vital significance and they were also beset by all of these other agencies that were pounding around them at the time, including those of the Commission. I was rather impressed with the way they handled themselves in spite of the fact that there was a great dereliction of duty in connection with the provisions they made for the security of Oswald, resulting in his death. But my point is, in spite of that you can't and shouldn't deny the Dallas police credit for an assiduous and, I think, prompt and efficient bit of police work.

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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

on Mon 14 Oct 2019, 8:41 am
barto wrote:
greg parker wrote:
steely dan wrote:Quite a list so far, Greg. Earlier today I was reading old EF threads and found this one. Despite our misgivings, Mr McCoy was most impressed with the DPD performance. Just like Lance I guess.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10894-interesting-hsca-testimony/
Yes, it was a masterclass in scrambling and shambling toward a (barely) usable narrative framework with CYA side-dishes.

HaHaHa

The Dallas police were responsible for the early collection of evidence which came to be of vital significance and they were also beset by all of these other agencies that were pounding around them at the time, including those of the Commission. I was rather impressed with the way they handled themselves in spite of the fact that there was a great dereliction of duty in connection with the provisions they made for the security of Oswald, resulting in his death. But my point is, in spite of that you can't and shouldn't deny the Dallas police credit for an assiduous and, I think, prompt and efficient bit of police work.
Bart, efficiency is often achieved by simply cutting corners.

But I wasn't talking about the police work anyway - though the handling of evidence, witnesses and the media was less than stellar.

What I referred to specifically was the narrative they stitched together - the completely bogus story that helped frame Oswald was put together in a shambling way reacting to what Oswald was saying and what evidence was coming in - for or against him. The story was not straight from the get-go - it underwent continual changes until the commission started taking witnesses. And even then, some (including police) had trouble sticking to the script.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63 Empty Re: Fritz's list of "important evidence" to Curry, 12/23/63

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