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the front entrance to the TSBD

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the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Sun 13 Jan 2013, 11:08 am

Can someone remind me, or correct me...?

You walked through a doorway, down some steps to the main entrance way, through that and down more steps to the side-walk?

Or was there only one doorway and one set of stairs (those being down to the side-walk)?



_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Mon 14 Jan 2013, 2:15 am

This has been a confusing area for me too at times. My best understanding today is still with the help of WCD 496 at http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docid=10896

If you were at the "will-call" counter beside Truly's office and wished to exit the building, you'd have to go through a set of double-doors into the front lobby. Immediately on your left would be the passenger elevator and at a less severe leftward angle are the stairs from the 2nd-floor office. Your feet encounter no steps; it's all even floor space from the will-call to the front landing.

Opening the second set of double doors brings you out onto the front landing, and about 10 feet more brings you to the front steps. The landing area could be described as an alcove, since the walls limit the peripheral view considerably.


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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Mon 14 Jan 2013, 7:10 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:This has been a confusing area for me too at times. My best understanding today is still with the help of WCD 496 at http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docid=10896

If you were at the "will-call" counter beside Truly's office and wished to exit the building, you'd have to go through a set of double-doors into the front lobby. Immediately on your left would be the passenger elevator and at a less severe leftward angle are the stairs from the 2nd-floor office. Your feet encounter no steps; it's all even floor space from the will-call to the front landing.

Opening the second set of double doors brings you out onto the front landing, and about 10 feet more brings you to the front steps. The landing area could be described as an alcove, since the walls limit the peripheral view considerably.


Thanks Richard, that helps enormously. This part of Holmes testimony is why I was asking.

Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.

I think Holmes' only error was that his memory compressed events here by talking about asking someone to send an elevator back up and then saying he went downstairs to see what the commotion was. Makes it sound like he was on an upper floor when he came down to check the commotion. And I do not believe that can possibly be true.

We have the two newspaper accounts the next day saying Truly and Baker saw Oswald near or in a little store-room near the stairs on the first floor.

Here's how I think it went down. He came down to lunch - ate his lunch in the domino room - saw Junior and friend re-enter the building. Went up to the second floor to buy a coke and hears all the commotion and goes back down stairs. So when Holmes says Oswald went downstairs - he is talking about from the second floor. He's standing by that little storage room with his coke when Truly and Baker rush by.

Furthermore I think Reid - if she saw Oswald on the second floor at all - did not tell Oswald the president had been shot. It had either happened while Oswald was walking upstairs to the second floor, or while he was up there.

As some may know, I have been interested in this area for quite a while and Reid's statements have never sat well with the rest of the evidence. Nevertheless, it has taken a long time to realize exactly why.

I think Reid was coerced into saying she told Oswald the President had been shot in order to push the time back that he was there and thus give him time to get down from the 6th.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Jan 2013, 2:01 am

I completely agree that Holmes' memory compression gives a distorted picture of Oswald's true whereabouts. My take is that Oswald was alone up on the 6th, after the elevator race, for a time range of 5 to 15 minutes, from about 12:05 to 12:15. He then went downstairs to the domino room to have some lunch.

He saw Jarman & Norman (Williams was also there, but not seen by Oswald) walk by the east freight elevator about 12:25. And this was the time he expected the President to come by-- and led him to tell his interrogators that he was having lunch when the motorcade passed the building. (Credit to Sean Murphy for this insight).

Oswald went to the second floor to get a Coke, and maybe, as per Groden's interview with Geneva Hine (???) was getting change from Hine when he heard the shots. He went down the front lobby stairs to see what the commotion was about (but Holmes' account gives the false impression he went down then from the 6th-- which would have been an incredibly foolish thing to say, had he actually been up on the 6th).

Maybe Oswald was seen by Truly & Baker standing by the little storage room in the crook of the front lobby stairs (see 1st floor diagram). This sighting couldn't have happened at the nook, with refrigerator, by the freight elevators-- we've hashed out who was near the elevators when Truly & Baker arrived there, at least to my satisfaction. But personally I have problems with the news reports-- mostly from Ochus Campbell, I think-- as to whether they're essentially second-hand hearsay.

Reid's story is similar to Givens' return for his ciggies in that they each are likely well-crafted fiction. The biggest problem, out of many, is that Hines saw Reid re-enter the office with about 5 co-workers- Sarah Stanton et al.


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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Wed 16 Jan 2013, 8:25 am

Hi Greg, Hi Richard

What do you make of Danny Arce's turnaround when he reviewed his 1963/64 statements for the HSCA and claimed Oswald was in the elevators with the rest of the floor laying crew and they dropped him on the fourth or fifth floor?

As an additional question; do you think the rifles were possibly stored under the floorboards of the fifth or sixth floors prior to the assassination? I've been thinking about the work of the "floor laying crew" over the last couple of weeks. How long does it take to lay some wood down? Weren't these guys doing this job for 4-5 weeks?

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Wed 16 Jan 2013, 11:40 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Hi Greg, Hi Richard

What do you make of Danny Arce's turnaround when he reviewed his 1963/64 statements for the HSCA and claimed Oswald was in the elevators with the rest of the floor laying crew and they dropped him on the fourth or fifth floor?

As an additional question; do you think the rifles were possibly stored under the floorboards of the fifth or sixth floors prior to the assassination? I've been thinking about the work of the "floor laying crew" over the last couple of weeks. How long does it take to lay some wood down? Weren't these guys doing this job for 4-5 weeks?

Lee,

don't recall ever seeing the HSCA stuff and couldn't locate it in a quick search.

His initial handwritten statement, undated (and what's with that, with so many of these statements!!!???) , but written on 11/22 has it that he saw Oswald on the 5th floor as he was going down to lunch at 11:50 am (although earlier in the statement, he had claimed he left for lunch at noon, 11:50am seems more accurate, time-wise). It is a little curious because it comes on the last page and was fairly obviously not written at the same time, and possibly not even by the same hand.

As I think you noted at the Ed Forum, the insertion of the 8:00am time for seeing Oswald on the 1st floor is a little suspicious, as well.

In his testimony, he says he got to work about 8, but may have been a little late and "no" he he did not see Oswald enter.

He is also by now dithering as to whether he saw/heard Oswald on the 5th or 6th floor. To be honest, I can't see them having dropped Oswald off on the 4th or 5th on the way down.

I completely agree with your Ed Forum comments about his various statements on the "elderly man".

Re: the floor laying -- what was being laid was 5/8 inch thick sheets of plywood straight over the existing floor.

I don't buy for a millisecond that this job was necessary because of oil left by the previous occupants' stock that was allegedly damaging book cartons.

1) Massive refurbishment was done to accommodate the TSBD Co and all the book companies before they moved in. Did they somehow not see the oil slicks on 5th and 6th? Or just think it was quite okay to have cardboard boxes stacked in pools of oil?

2) Bonnie Ray Williams said they only got them laying the floor so they didn't have to lay them off during the slow period.

3) I have read a newspaper account from '64 or '65 where a reporter asked Truly could he look at the 6th floor. The reporter then expressed some surprise to find the floor laying had not been completed.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Thu 17 Jan 2013, 1:32 am

Great to hear from you, Lee. I'm also unaware of whatever Danny Arce may have told the HSCA, but would hazard a guess that his heavy-drinking habit may have blurred his memory some. He'd have been in his early 30's and perhaps overdoing it all-too-often. As I understand, he worked as a union representative- someone at Ed Forum worked with him, and described his drinking problem and willingness to talk about the assassination, but I've not been able to find that thread since I first read it.

My personal favorite for storing the assassination rifles is that cluttered 7th floor storeroom- in fact I see one rifle getting tucked there on Wednesday, November 20, by Ralph Yates' hitchhiker.

I agree with Greg that the floor-laying project was phony- and if there really was any problems with oil stains from Sexton Grocery's coffee-grinding machines, the stupidity by the TSBD for not at least protecting the floor with plastic or something- this points toward a hurried movement of 1000s of cartons when they occupied the premises- hurried, in that they wanted to create the impression they had been there for many years.

The 5th floor was basically a "make work, pass the time" kind of affair. Any seasoned building trade crew could lay down a plywood floor in 4 days max, including all that carton-shifting.

But I see it unlikely that rifles were stored under floorboards.

By the way, I missed this way back when, but Jarman told the SS (WCD 87) that he took part in the elevator race. Seems that people who were remembering Givens in the race were actually remembering Jarman. Not that it casts doubt on Jarman, but it's curious why a 1st-floor guy with a work station would be up on the 6th. Real slow day, I guess.

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Thu 17 Jan 2013, 8:13 am

Alright lads,

I'm a bit busy this evening and will reply in more detail tomorrow but in the meantime here is the link to the Danny Arce HSCA statement review where his story changes:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/utils/getfile/collection/po-arm/id/33191/filename/print/page/download

I'm in total agreement that the floor laying routine was a sham. The reason I was thinking about the rifles being hidden under the floorboards is because of the dust that allegedly started falling from the ceiling of the fifth floor into Harold Norman's hair. Now, it is hard to separate the truth from the bullshit concerning the stories that some of the TSBD employees told, but if white dust did fall onto Norman's head then I'm likely to think it was because floor boards might have been displaced immediately after the shots (wherever they may have came from).

I personally can't see the rifles being hidden on the seventh floor. It just doesn't ring true for me and is of course just an opinion based on nothing more than gut instinct.

I've been thinking long and hard about the Mauser and whether one was actually found. I can't make up my mind. I'm of the opinion that it is no coincidence that the first rifle reports claimed it was a British Enfield, i.e. Frazier's weapon of choice. Giving the police excellent leverage against ole' Buell. The second weapon reported found being a Mauser, i.e. the Cason weapon that he took into the depository and that he quite conveniently managed to get Roy Truly's fingerprints all over.

If Fritz did announce on the Sixth Floor that the weapon was a German Mauser, or if actually was a Mauser, can you imagine the color of Truly's underpants?

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Thu 17 Jan 2013, 9:07 am

Bear in mind that Danny Arce's "peeing old man" may have been a prepared ruse, to muddy the waters with a red herring. I've had the opinion for a long time that this old man & his black Buick never existed.

And, remember that photo of the hammer on the sniper's nest windowsill (in Elevator Escape)? I think maybe Jack Beers took that photo. Perhaps the hammer was used to help lift a floorboard?

cat

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 8:43 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:Bear in mind that Danny Arce's "peeing old man" may have been a prepared ruse, to muddy the waters with a red herring. I've had the opinion for a long time that this old man & his black Buick never existed.

And, remember that photo of the hammer on the sniper's nest windowsill (in Elevator Escape)? I think maybe Jack Beers took that photo. Perhaps the hammer was used to help lift a floorboard?

cat

Sorry Richard,

don't think I can go with you on either of those.

Arce never said anything in his original statement other than seeing the old man leave the building. The statement was taken that afternoon, and I have no reason to doubt it. The later changes/additions to the story are another kettle of fish, altogether.

The hammer - I'm assuming the plywood was being nailed down?


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 9:13 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Alright lads,

I'm a bit busy this evening and will reply in more detail tomorrow but in the meantime here is the link to the Danny Arce HSCA statement review where his story changes:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/utils/getfile/collection/po-arm/id/33191/filename/print/page/download

Thanks Lee. Should have known it was in Armstrong's collection! I don't know. It all sounds a bit vague. I'm inclined to stick to his original statement as more reliable, that Oswald was already on the 5th.

I'm in total agreement that the floor laying routine was a sham. The reason I was thinking about the rifles being hidden under the floorboards is because of the dust that allegedly started falling from the ceiling of the fifth floor into Harold Norman's hair. Now, it is hard to separate the truth from the bullshit concerning the stories that some of the TSBD employees told, but if white dust did fall onto Norman's head then I'm likely to think it was because floor boards might have been displaced immediately after the shots (wherever they may have came from).

I personally can't see the rifles being hidden on the seventh floor. It just doesn't ring true for me and is of course just an opinion based on nothing more than gut instinct.

What about the crates?

Maybe drawing too long a bow, but the TSBD covered the exact same 5 states that the 112th MIG did...Texas, Louisiana. Arkansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

The Corporation acts as an independent agency for a group of thirty-three publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to the various schools in the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and New Mexico
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/cason.htm


Under the group's control were seven regions encompassing five States:
Texas, Louisiana. Arkansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma. Jones was
directly responsible for counterintelligence operations, background in-
vestigations, domestic intelligence and any special operations in this
five-State area.

http://www.jfklancer.com/RobertJones.html


I've been thinking long and hard about the Mauser and whether one was actually found. I can't make up my mind. I'm of the opinion that it is no coincidence that the first rifle reports claimed it was a British Enfield, i.e. Frazier's weapon of choice. Giving the police excellent leverage against ole' Buell. The second weapon reported found being a Mauser, i.e. the Cason weapon that he took into the depository and that he quite conveniently managed to get Roy Truly's fingerprints all over.

If Fritz did announce on the Sixth Floor that the weapon was a German Mauser, or if actually was a Mauser, can you imagine the color of Truly's underpants?

Mark my word. Truly was in this way up past his bumhole. The only leeway he can be given is how much he knew. Doing certain things for the intelligence community is one thing - showing that he knew why he was being asked to do those things is another

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 10:28 am

Have to agree that Day's remark to a WBAP reporter, while walking out of the front of the Depository while carrying a rifle, that it was "a British Enfield" was meant to intimidate Frazier. Day knew full well he wasn't holding an Enfield.

Found some footage of the rifle being displayed for reporters in a DPD hallway that you may enjoy, in http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=PGIvfVRxntQ

at 1:05- 1:25. The clock on the wall reads 6:16.

Reporter: What kind of rifle is it?
Day: No name on it. 6.5, apparently made in Italy, 1940.

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The Enfield and the hair

Post by ianlloyd on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 9:26 pm

I think the dust fell into BRW's hair and Norman told him not to brush it out for some odd reason???

How would Day have known about Frazier and his owning an Enfield so soon?

Also, wasn't it Warren Caster, not Cason who took the rifles into the TSBD on the Wednesday 20th and showed them off in Truly's (or Shelley's?) office?

I tend to favour the store room on the 7th floor as being the hiding place for the rifle(s)...

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 10:41 pm

That's correct, Ian. Here's the exchange, from III p. 192:

BALL: Did you see any dust or dirt falling?
NORMAN: I didn't see any falling, but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams' hair.
BALL: Did anybody say anything about it?
NORMAN: I believe Jarman told him it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out of his hair but I think he did anyway.

I'd say it was real old ceiling paint that got jettisoned loose from the sonic force.

To get accurate on the WBAP reporter, he said, "Crime Lieutenant J.C. Day just came out of that building. Reported British .303 rifle with telescopic lens." (Third Decade, Vol. 2 Issue 2). So, why would Day, presumably having just read that it was "Made in Italy" up on the 6th floor, remark to the reporter that it was a British .303? Day didn't say "Mauser", the other common bolt-action rifle,

Here's a look at an Enfield: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY_Ui78DiY4
(What do you think of my newest theory, that Oswald hand-loaded an Enfield 3 times in 6 seconds? The guy was quicker than a cat, IMHO)

This suggests to me that Day said "British .303" (i.e. Enfield) because he knew that an Enfield had been brought to the TSBD, and we all know that Frazier owned an Enfield and may well have brought it to work that day (Since Shields recalled that Frazier had "dropped his rider off at the building", allowing the possibility that Frazier walked alone across the railyard with his rifle.)

Little or nothing about Day's behavior reflects honest police work (palmprint, etc.). I look at him & Fritz as key insiders in the plot, and maybe capable of applying some "leverage" on a kid like Frazier.

Cason also confused me- but i can see Truly getting his fingerprints all over Caster's Mauser, and this Mauser subsequently getting planted or at least mentioned. A possibility there.


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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Fri 18 Jan 2013, 10:54 pm

Hi Richard,

I would tend to agree that it was probably ceiling paint together with dust falling through the cracks between the floorboards from the 6th floor - the new floor hadn't yet been laid in that area. Still unsure as to why Norman relates the story about Jarman telling BRW not to brush it out of his hair - is this leading to an alibi for BRW?? i.e. he would have had to have been on the floor below to have had the dust fall onto his head?? Or, perhaps Jarman?

How did Day know that an Enfield had been taken into the TSBD?

I get the feeling Day was being controlled and manipulated by others. Whilst I don't believe he was the most honest of cops (and I certainly don't believe that Fritz was!!), he was being supplied with various items of "evidence" by others...

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 12:17 am

Great point about the alibi for BR Williams, with dust in his hair to certify presence on 5th. Haven't been able to totally sort out this black trio- maybe I'd been too hard on them, but can't let them off the hook entirely. Someone had to signal Dougherty that footsteps were coming up the stairs, so he could bring down the west elevator at the appropriate time.

The article I read through a few months ago, "The Gun That Didn't Smoke", which I'd re-read after several years, really opened my eyes about the reason the rifle was called a Mauser. It's available at assassinationscience, written by Graf & Bartholomew, and unfortunately so long it takes several days to digest.

But it makes it clear that Day needed to acquire an ammunition clip from somewhere- there wasn't a clip on the 6th floor, and they realized over the next half hour that M-C rifles need one (since M-Cs eject clip after last round chambered)- so Day had to be involved in at least the subterfuge of inserting a clip into the 6th floor rifle, which is photographed on the street.

Agree that it's speculative to say that Day knew an Enfield had been brought there, but what other reason could compel him to remark that the rifle was a British .303?

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 1:12 am

I don't quite know what to think of these 3 - I'm sure they all knew more than they ever let on.

I'll take a look at that article...

Would they really have been able to acquire a suitable ammo clip in that short time???

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 1:20 am

Day referring to the rifle that he had in his hands at the time as an Enfield is extremely odd - is it a journalistic error? I mean, everyone on the 6th floor (in particular Craig & Weitzman) agreed it was a Mauser only a short while before...???

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 3:02 am

My error, Richard and Ian. I did mean Warren Caster and must have had a brain burp. In my defence I had been reading Greg's post on the 6th Floor Whitewash a few hours before. I think Greg is brainwashing me without my knowing.

I threw the floorboard possibility out there just as a discussion point. There are so many if's and but's concerning the events that I struggle to wrap my head around it.

For example; Harold Norman's dusty head. If dust and paint really did fall into his hair then obviously something displaced it from the ceiling. Now that could be the force of the shots. It could be someone moving floorboards. But for starters we have to believe he really did have dust in his hair and that it fell from the ceiling rather than being put there himself. If we do believe him and we believe it was dust that was moved by shots we have to believe that shots were actually fired from the sixth floor and I'm not entirely convinced there were any from there. We also have to believe Norman was on the fifth floor when this happened and I've entertained the possibility in the past that these boys were actually on the sixth floor.

I just start driving myself nuts thinking about it.

I take Greg's point about the crates.

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by greg parker on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 8:24 am

Here's Norman's "defense lawyer"...

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Vindication-of-Harold-Norman&id=7328731

I'm off for an all-too-short family vacation. Don't know if I'll have access while away. Either way, I hope you guys can keep these discussions rolling.

Re: the crates... I'm sure there was a couple of movies prior to '63 where book crates (usually bibles) were used to smuggle rifles. Guns and bibles. Wasn't there a book or magazine page found up on that floor showing Christ? king

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 10:00 am

Part I of III

Once I'd learned about Shields' recollection (in Harvey & Lee) that Frazier "dropped off his rider at the building", whenever I re-read Frazier's testimony, about him following behind Oswald, as Oswald carried the package- I began thinking that Frazier himself had carried this package, and had added details from his own memory of having done this. And it made sense. That testimony is at II pp. 228-229. Try reading it and substituting the personal pronoun "I" for "he" and "my" for "his" (i.e. making Frazier the package-carrier).

BALL: You say he had the package up under his arm when you saw him?
FRAZIER: Yes, sir.
BALL: You mean one end of it under the armpit?
FRAZIER: Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it under your arm like that.
BALL: And he had the lower part-
FRAZIER: The other part with his right hand.
BALL: Right hand?
FRAZIER: Right.
BALL: He carried it then parallel to his body?
FRAZIER: Right, straight up and down.
BALL: Under his right arm?
FRAZIER: Yes, sir.
BALL: Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
FRAZIER: Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package...

<Now Frazier diverges and says Oswald never had lied to him before, says he used to work in a store uncrating curtain rods, says he was watching the trains and not paying attention to the package- a pretty suspicious bunch of replies if you ask me- it doesn't ring like truth>

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 10:15 am

Part II of III

Gil Jesus, in one of his videos, proves that Oswald couldn't have carried a disassembled Mannlicher-Carcano in the manner described by Frazier, since Oswald didn't have arms like a baboon. But I wonder about Frazier, at 6'1", being able to carry a fully-assembled Enfield in a manner similar to what he was describing.

The possibility exists. And Day may have been briefed beforehand aout Frazier's role. I realize this is speculative reasoning, but sometimes that's more fruitful than solid deductions & inductions- in that firm ground can hopefully be found, with the speculations serving as spider-threads to bridge across area that otherwise have no firm evidence.

It's like a thought experiment. If you imagine that Frazier brought his Enfield into the TSBD, what else is enabled? Does this proposition still make sense? i.e. the Enfield has just a peep sight, the size of a thumb. But no one on the street reported seeing a scope. So yes, the proposition still makes sense. It doesn't mean that that is what actually happened, but if the proposition still holds up, it can't be dismissed.

Did they report the caliber of the bullet from Connally's leg? Nope. Maybe it was a .303. It sure seems to me that the shot was fired from the sniper's nest.

Etc. So for the time being, purely as a matter of belief, I do believe that Day had foreknowledge of Frazier's Enfield at the TSBD.

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 10:30 am

Part III of III

There wasn't any ammo clip in the Alyea film. Yet on the street Day was photographed with the clip protruding prominently from the bottom of the trigger housing.

An M-C clip had to be procured soon after the rifle discovery- because with this less-common make of bolt-action rifle (i.e. not an M-1 Garand, or Mauser, or Enfield) the discoverers weren't familiar with its loading system- that it ejected the clip once the last cartridge was chambered (Fritz had found a live round when opening up the bolt).

The discoverers knew the rifle was a plant, and hadn't even been fired (no sniff test of end of barrel).

Either the clip was procured between (approx.) 1:22 and 1:57, or Day actually had brought a clip in his coat pocket. In any case, he inserted the clip into the un-natural bottom end (a full clip should insert through the top). Between 1:57 and 6:16 he crammed this clip up into the rifle's magazine to make the clip disappear from reporters' curiosity.

Basically, the DPD ran with the Mauser story as a cover for their confusion about the ammo clip. The Graf-Bartholomew article does a much better job of explaining this.

What's even more curious is that the stretcher bullet at Parkland (OP Wright, Richard Johnsen) is discovered about the same time (1:57) that the clip makes its appearance. Coincidence or conspiracy?

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by Guest on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 11:02 pm

Here's what I think happened on the TSBD sidewalk when Day brought out the rifle:

The WBAP reporter yelled out something like- "Lieutenant! What make of rifle was used in the assassination?"
Day replied, straight out and honest- "British .303."

The reporter then made a journalistic mistake, assuming that the rifle Day was carrying was used in the assassination, and reported, "British .303 with telescopic lens", not knowing an Enfield from a Mauser from a Mannlicher-Carcano.

At 12:31/32, the British .303 Enfield was brought down the west freight elevator to the 1st floor. Somebody, probably the guy who had used it, carried it into the basement past a "spellbound" Troy West.
Frazier pulled his '54 Chevy behind the TSBD, whenever he was dismissed for the day, and he & somebody pulled a quickie and brought the rifle up from the basement and put it in the trunk of his car.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Linnie Mae Randle was listening to the news...

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 19 Jan 2013, 11:48 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:Great point about the alibi for BR Williams, with dust in his hair to certify presence on 5th. Haven't been able to totally sort out this black trio- maybe I'd been too hard on them, but can't let them off the hook entirely. Someone had to signal Dougherty that footsteps were coming up the stairs, so he could bring down the west elevator at the appropriate time.

The article I read through a few months ago, "The Gun That Didn't Smoke", which I'd re-read after several years, really opened my eyes about the reason the rifle was called a Mauser. It's available at assassinationscience, written by Graf & Bartholomew, and unfortunately so long it takes several days to digest.

But it makes it clear that Day needed to acquire an ammunition clip from somewhere- there wasn't a clip on the 6th floor, and they realized over the next half hour that M-C rifles need one (since M-Cs eject clip after last round chambered)- so Day had to be involved in at least the subterfuge of inserting a clip into the 6th floor rifle, which is photographed on the street.

Some further thoughts on the "alibi" for BRW - the way it is said, Norman tends to provide a sort of an alibi for all 3! Norman refers to Jarman saying something to BRW - Clever, or what?

Agree that it's speculative to say that Day knew an Enfield had been brought there, but what other reason could compel him to remark that the rifle was a British .303?

Some further thoughts on the "alibi" for BRW - the way it is explained by Norman - Norman refers to Jarman saying something to BRW - essentially creates a sort of an alibi for all 3 of them. Hmmmm...clever, or what?

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Re: the front entrance to the TSBD

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