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who is this man?

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who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Thu 28 Feb 2013, 10:28 pm




any clues on who it is being ushered back inside by a cop?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 3:27 am

I believe the other black lad on the steps is Bonnie Ray Williams, so my guess would be James Jarman or Harold Norman

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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 8:21 am

Thanks Lee,

that makes sense. Jarman told the HSCA that they were ordered back in.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 9:08 am

I also think the guy in the foreground, the back of whose head is between the woman and the Gorilla Lovelady Rotoscoped Imposter, could be Danny Arce.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 9:30 am

Lee,

"Gorilla Lovelady Rotoscoped Imposter" is not acceptable language for a high quality forum as it may tend to be seen as taking the fucking piss out of the OIP (Overwrought & Inept Photoanalysts).

So.... do carry on...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 11:00 am

I'm fairly sure it's James Jarman, and will outline my reasoning. I had first caught this last December over at jfkassassinationforum, it was vexing, and nobody there had any satisfying answers. The relevant clips are at pages 14-16 of Gerda Dunckel's discovery of Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film, at

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.276.html

Same-day photos of Norman and Jarman are only available in the Dillard crop and Dillard autoradiographically-enhanced pic, which may be found on page 4 of my essay "The Elevator Escape Theory" at this website.

So, on p. 14 of Gerda's thread, Robin Unger first posted a short video from the Martin film showing the man in question.

On p. 15, in the 1st post, Robin has added a video from the Hughes film showing the same sequence. Bonnie Ray Williams is clearly seen ascending the steps from street level, in his deep olive-green shirt and khaki pants, headed toward the left-hand side of the steps.
Ahead of him looks like a small black man in a light orange-tan shirt, who talks to the police on the landing. I believe this is Harold Norman, who is seen in the Dillard crop wearing a light-colored shirt.

On p. 16, second post, Gerda has a video from the Hughes film that contains "Norman", BR Williams, and also the man in question "Green Jacket Man"- who is similarly first seen at street level, and then Hughes shut his camera off for about a second due to an obstructing person, and then Green Jacket Man is seen again continuing up the steps and being escorted through the door.

Wes Riddle's following post shows Willis 8, in which Roy Lewis (tan shirt) and I believe Carl Jones (maroon sweater) are standing halfway up the steps. They'd started work at the TSBD 4 and 2 and 1/2 months beforehand, their positions agree with where they stated they'd watched the motorcade from (WCD 81), and it makes sense that they would buddy up as new employees, once they'd caught sight of each other. The Lewis ID is 100%, and I can't with any confidence say Green Jacket Man is Carl Jones, because I think Jones is the guy beside Lewis.

80% of the way down on page 16, Gerda has posted a side by side comparison of the Martin & Hughes clips. "Green Jacket Man " in the Hughes film becomes "Olive-Brown Jacket Man" in the Martin film.

He's clearly a black man, relatively light-complexioned. He seems about 5'6", he's significantly shorter than the cop who ushers him in. But he looks taller than Norman's 5'2". Jarman was 5'6". And as far as build looks a bit on the stocky side. That correlates with Jarman.

We can confidently say that Green Jacket Man works in the building. But we never get to see his face. And even though the only picture of Jarman is that autoradiographic enhancement, it's evident that Jarman's wearing a darker shirt than Norman, and we could even say it's a medium-colored shirt (as opposed to a dark one).

It seems that BRW, Norman & Jarman had made it out to street level at the bottom of the steps, and were called back into the building. Probably by a cop who yelled at them. Maybe Sawyer.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 11:03 am

That is Arce in the foreground. Trenchcoat Danny.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 11:08 am

The guy with the bald spot in the red-checkered shirt taking a drag off a cigarette is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald, who was riding in a Rambler at the time.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 11:13 am

Thanks Richard. That seems pretty conclusive. I agree that he is light-complexioned. Made me consider the possibility he was Cuban - thus my question.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 11:15 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:The guy with the bald spot in the red-checkered shirt taking a drag off a cigarette is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald, who was riding in a Rambler at the time.

with this guy? afro

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3450
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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Fri 01 Mar 2013, 6:50 pm

greg parker wrote:Lee,

"Gorilla Lovelady Rotoscoped Imposter" is not acceptable language for a high quality forum as it may tend to be seen as taking the fucking piss out of the OIP (Overwrought & Inept Photoanalysts).

So.... do carry on...

Maybe you could invite Don Jeffries over as moderator, Greg?


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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Sat 02 Mar 2013, 8:30 pm

While I'm at it, I might as well get Ralph and uncle fetzer for my forensics advisory comitee.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Sat 02 Mar 2013, 8:44 pm

Fester was pretty pissed at the jaunty hat analysis again. I back your analysis 100%, Greg, and if you could get some pictures of Oswald and cut individual pieces of his face out and knit them together with a patchwork quilt effect I believe your theory is more or less boxed off.

Serious question, do you find it a bit strange that the Police managed to round many of the sixth floor workers up so quickly, even before the snipers nest had been found? What time was the roll call supposed to have happened?

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Sat 02 Mar 2013, 9:22 pm

Greg, Richard,

Do we know who the black guy is in the orange leather hat?

Didn't James Jarman wear a similar hat during the WC reconstructions on the fifth floor? I'm sure it was a white version of the same style.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Sun 03 Mar 2013, 10:37 am

My guess is the guy in the orange leather hat is a bystander. Jarman did wear a white hat in the reconstructions, it looks similar in style and I'm not sure from this photo whether it isn't a beret.

http://www.www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0118a.htm

It's at XVII p. 209 if this link fails

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 2:26 am

Bonnie Ray Williams testimony to the Warren Commission:

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

It's really difficult to believe anything that was testified to by Norman, Jarman and Williams.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 2:50 am

I think I've discussed before the problems I have with the Dillard and Powell photos.

Where are N, W and J in Dillard Exhibit B:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dillard_Ex_B.pdf

Tom Dillard claims he took three photographs of the TSBD. There are four Dillard exhibits printed in the WC volumes; Dillard A, B, C & D. Dillard A is a blow up showing Norman and Williams. Dillard B is is the shot linked to above that shows the five floors of the TSBD but you cannot see any of three guys on the fifth floor. Dillard C is identical to Dillard A but is less cropped. Dillard D is the same as Dillard B.

So, where is the third photograph?

The final 20 seconds of this video kinda sums up where I think Norman, Jarman and Williams possibly were during the assassination:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeesai_jfk-assassination-films-robert-hugh_news#.UTOS25EgGSM

Tom Dillard said he saw the figures in the "arched window."
Forrest Sorrels said, "I remember distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I may have seen there."

Also,

Mr. STERN - And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was in what part of the building?
Mr. SORRELS - I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.
Mr. STERN - And about two stories down?
Mr. SORRELS - From the top; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN - And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm?
Mr. SORRELS - I observed them first, when I first looked at the building I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless I put my head almost out the window.

Mr. SORRELS - Well, because I remember that they were not near the top---I can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men.

There were no windows open directly underneath the two windows where we are told N, J & W were.


Last edited by Lee David Farley on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 6:22 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 5:25 am

Analysis of the gentleman on the photo's extreme right, bottom, reveals he is none other than Colonel Harlan Sanders, fresh from having planted KFC chicken on the sixth floor window sill.

Get this critical information to the Oswald Innocence Project, ASAP.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 5:45 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:Analysis of the gentleman on the photo's extreme right, bottom, reveals he is none other than Colonel Harlan Sanders, fresh from having planted KFC chicken on the sixth floor window sill.

Get this critical information to the Oswald Innocence Project, ASAP.

Thank God we can set them straight on that.

Word on the grapevine was that they had him pegged as "Ernie" LNU - a known associate of "Bert".

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 6:51 am

Lee David Farley wrote:I think I've discussed before the problems I have with the Dillard and Powell photos.

Where are N, W and J in Dillard Exhibit B:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dillard_Ex_B.pdf

Tom Dillard claims he took three photographs of the TSBD. There are four Dillard exhibits printed in the WC volumes; Dillard A, B, C & D. Dillard A is a blow up showing Norman and Williams. Dillard B is is the shot linked to above that shows the five floors of the TSBD but you cannot see any of three guys on the fifth floor. Dillard C is identical to Dillard A but is less cropped. Dillard D is the same as Dillard B.

So, where is the third photograph?

The final 20 seconds of this video kinda sums up where I think Norman, Jarman and Williams possibly were during the assassination:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeesai_jfk-assassination-films-robert-hugh_news#.UTOS25EgGSM

Tom Dillard said he saw the figures in the "arched window."
Forrest Sorrels said, "I remember distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I may have seen there."

Also,

Mr. STERN - And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was in what part of the building?
Mr. SORRELS - I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.
Mr. STERN - And about two stories down?
Mr. SORRELS - From the top; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN - And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm?
Mr. SORRELS - I observed them first, when I first looked at the building I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless I put my head almost out the window.

Mr. SORRELS - Well, because I remember that they were not near the top---I can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men.

There were no windows open directly underneath the two windows where we are told N, J & W were.

Lee,

have had bugger all sleep lately, and orientation is not my strength at the best of times...

You seem to be saying that the three were on the 6th floor and the assassination took place on the 5th floor?

If so, why was it all switched around?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:49 am

I think what I'd like to explore is what happens to the evidence we have if we look at it from an assumption that the three of them were on the Sixth Floor rather than the fourth.

I don't believe they switched the assassination from one floor to another. The assassination didn't take place from either floor, IMO.

I may be completely barking up the wrong tree here, but every time I delve into this aspect of the case I'm not convinced by their stories, Greg.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:57 am

P.S. I'm toying with the notion that the guy Baker bumped into on the 3rd/4th floor was Jack Dougherty

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Re: who is this man?

Post by greg parker on Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:36 am

Lee,

what has always been lacking is a firm description of Dougherty to match against Baker's description.

But I agree, he is probably the only likely candidate outside it being a contract killer or someone places there to draw attention from other location/s.

If it was Dougherty, it is one less mark against Truly.

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Re: who is this man?

Post by Guest on Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:03 am

"As the Chevy convertible slowed down to a crawl with the School Book Depository looming in front of it, Dillard, in the midst of all the sudden confusion, reacted like the old-time pro that he was. His two cameras were on straps around his neck and loaded with Tri-X film, the shutters at a 1/500 second speed and the lenses at F-16 or F-11. Reacting to Jackson's words about the gun location, Dillard put his Leica to his eye and clicked off a shot.

'I had my camera in my hand. I'm sure I shot it with the 28 <mm lens> first, and it's fairly well centered. Jackson said something like upper right hand corner, two down from the top, or whatever he said. By that time I had it dead centered. I'm sure the first picture is maybe a few seconds after the last shot.'

Dillard then grabbed his Yashica mounted with a 100 mm lens <i.e.telescopic> and took a close -up photo of the window. Dillard's two photographs are sharp and well-executed. To a casual observer they might be assumed to be architectural photographs made to record an overview and then a detail shot of the old building with its brick-patterned facade."

- Pictures of the Pain, p. 441

Dillard 3rd shot (that is, in Dealey Plaza) was taken once he had hopped off the camera car and was standing in the middle of Elm Street. was aimed at the triple underpass and captured the 3 camera cars from the motorcade procession, notably with Navy photographer Thomas Atkins running alongside Camera Car 2. This 3rd photo has been timed definitively by Jeff Rollins at JFKLancer at Z-313 + 35-40 seconds.

The two Dillard photos of the TSBD were taken very near Z-313 + 5 seconds and Z-313 + 10 seconds.

Powell's photo was estimated a month later to have been taken 30 seconds after the shots. The relevant document is HSCA 180-10027-10333 and should be available at Dennis Morissette's website,, jfkassassinationfiles.com

Powell's photo, which shows only Bonnie Ray Williams at his window, is photographic evidence that he, Jarman & Norman did not react near-immediately to the shots and proceed to the west corner window, as was claimed in their testimonies; they even claimed falsely to have opened this corner window.

My own judgement is that they were involved in something far more sinister in those moments, and probably proceeded to the stairwell area. When they were finished doing whatever they were doing, and heard Truly and Baker coming up the stairs, they ducked into their ready-made cubbyhole fort- its tall stack of cartons on the stairwell side completely hiding them from view.

What the Martin & Hughes film clips show is that they actually attempted to get the hell out of the Depository, but were called back.


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Re: who is this man?

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