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DVP on Oswald's guilt

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DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 12:05 pm

In summary --

Lee Oswald leaving behind the money and his ring doesn't PROVE he shot the President, of course. But the TOTALITY of unusual things he did on November 21 and 22 certainly indicate that Friday, November 22, 1963, was not just an ordinary regular work day for Lee Harvey Oswald.

This is misleading in that it makes it sound like he left $170 on that night. In fact, the amount he left is unknown. According to Marina...
MARINA OSWALD -- "Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it."

The $170 was the sum total of the money he would put there periodically on his visits.


E.G.:

1.) Visiting his wife at Ruth Paine's house on a THURSDAY instead of his normal FRIDAY.

There was NO norm. That is WC spin. He had only been working for 6 weeks (hardly long enough to form a regular pattern) and had broken the alleged norm in the past.

2.) Leaving Marina $170 and his wedding ring (in tandem) -- which left only approximately $15.10 in Lee's pockets when he left the Paine house on November 22 (and, remember, per Buell Wesley Frazier, Lee was not planning on returning to Irving on Friday night).

3.) Telling Marina to buy "anything" that was needed for the children, which was highly unusual for the penny-pinching Mr. Oswald, according to his wife.

She did not use the term "penny-pinching". You are putting words in the mouth of the witness.. Nor did she say it was "highly unusual". Let's look at her exact words: "He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June and for the children. This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first." The term she used was "rather unusual" and she did not say it in relation to buying everything the kids needed. She said it was "rather unusual" that he mentioned this FIRST. It was apparently something he might usually say before leaving her - not something he'd say prior.

"Rather" according to the dictionary: Used to indicate one's preference in a particular matter

Synonyms: quite - pretty - somewhat - preferably


4.) Telling Wesley Frazier he was going to Irving to get some curtain rods at the Paine house, which we know was a lie (based on the preponderance of evidence and testimony that proves it was a lie).

The testimony from Frazier is the ONLY evidence. Where does this "preponderance" come from?

5.) Taking a large paper package into work with him on Nov. 22.

Which was explicable, given the Paine's had no need to have any lunch sacks on hand.

6.) Taking no lunch to work on Nov. 22, which was very unusual (per Buell Frazier's testimony).

Frazier again. Ho hum. The guy who kept changing his mind about where he usually ate to cover the very strange behaviour of eating in the basement all on his own that day. If you want to talk about suspiciousness borne of breaking usual habits, how about addressing that one?

And when we add in the evidence of Oswald's guilt that was discovered AFTER the assassination, then what do all of these things suggest--in combination with one another? Do they suggest the actions of an innocent patsy? Or do they suggest the actions of a man who had a one-man plan to murder the President?

Yes... a bunch of VERY circumstantial pieces of evidence, often taken out of context, or with spin added - it was the usual method of securing convictions in Dallas -- many of which later had to be overturned.


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 2:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Frankie Vegas on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 12:34 pm

1.) Visiting his wife at Ruth Paine's house on a THURSDAY instead of his normal FRIDAY.

"There was NO norm. That is WC spin. He had only been working for 6 weeks (hardly long enough to form a regular pattern) and had broken the alleged norm in the past. "

I'm really sick of this one too. The six week 'norm'. Sigh...

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 10:02 am

DVP has now taken to quoting from CE 1820 to support his assertions. It is an FBI interview with Marina done on Jan 15, 1964 and translated from Russian.

Here is the part being quoted by David

"MARINA states that in reflection, now she believes this to be strange, because OSWALD had always been most frugal and did not allow her to spend hardly any money."

Let's assume the translation is accurate.

Does it make any sense whatsoever that she thought his saying anything about buying stuff for the kids was "strange" due to his "frugality"? Yes. If that is what she thought at the time, it would make perfect sense. But apparently she didn't think that at the time. She only came to this conclusion upon "reflection" during a lengthy FBI interview nearly 2 months after the events. Anyone who lives under the frugal conditions Oswald allegedly set, would not need any "reflection" to catch on that a sudden change from his frugality was "strange". No matter how hard anyone tries and spin it.

_________________
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Guest on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 7:22 am

Do you think he really believe the horse shit he spouts, Greg? Or do you think he knows it's horse shit?

Guest
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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Frankie Vegas on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 7:34 am

Lee, I know you're not asking me and I know it's probably rhetorical, but DVP has been debating this case on a daily basis since forever. He's had more than long enough to change at least some of his beliefs. And anyone who honestly takes info that they are given in debates does change and rearrange what they think.
DVP will never give an inch. He must live in a stable to have that much horse shit available.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 7:55 am

Guys, no one can be a cartoon cutout figure AND be for real.

It's part of the game... spread this horseshit and if it gets debunked, move on to something else and then return to it later as if it had never been debunked in the first place.

I mean, it's a good tactic because you win no matter what. If you spend the time debunking it, it's tying up your time. If you ignore it, then those stumbling onto it will possibly see it as holy writ because no one has questioned it, let alone outright refuted it on the evidence.

The fact that he and others just keep recycling the same garbage, ignoring that it has been discredited ad infinitum is the biggest clue that they are not the true believers they purport to be.

What we need is to identify the main bs "facts" they recycle and write concise refutations of them which can be linked as a response each time they post such "facts". It would save responding in detail each time, and hopefully direct newbies to more accurate material.

On the flip side, they can be handy in pointing out genuine flaws in arguments presented, or pushing you to improve the arguments and citations.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Frankie Vegas on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 10:42 am

I agree. And I think he would look like less of (a person who does that on purpose, won't say what I call them here) if he conceded once in a while, like a normal human.

I once asked Jim DiEugenio the same thing, why he wastes time debating DVP. He said the same too, that newbies need to see a rational argument against the party line.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 3:24 pm

Ya gotta love the guy for trying.

Here he is again with more classic Peinerisms.

This in reply to David Josephs who said marking the envelope containing the stretcher bullet only authenticates the envelope.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Bullshit. Marking the envelope is tantamount to marking the piece of evidence itself.

So... marking an evidence container is the same as marking the evidence.


He goes on to say later that

The writing we find on this envelope written by Elmer Todd is exactly the same as having ROWLEY'S own mark on it too. And anyone saying otherwise is just plain goofy:

So (according to DVP), you don't even really need to mark the evidence container, so long as someone who did mark it, confirms you handled the evidence.

But before all this, David had admitted that Johnson probably did not mark the envelope. And for a very good reason: No one ever said he did. Not Johnson and not anyone who handled it.

Is it possible that the Secret Service men (Johnsen and Rowley) could have conceivably marked the envelope that CD7 says contained the bullet that was turned over to the FBI by Rowley on 11/22/63?

Such an explanation would, of course, explain why the initials of Johnsen and Rowley are not present on the bullet itself--it would be because they marked the envelope instead of the actual bullet.

But such an explanation doesn't really iron out any problems that exist in CE2011 though, because it's hard for me to believe that if SS agent Johnsen (and/or Chief Rowley) had, indeed, marked an envelope which held CE399, that such important chain-of-possession information would not have made its way into the FBI report we find in CE2011.

If a so-called CT had come up with these excuses to try and fortify their theory, DVP would be the first to jump in and ridicule the hell out of it.

The fact that he has posted all this, leaves me to believe he has convinced himself, not necessarily that any of this is true, but that he has won the debate on it.

Someone needs to give him a reality check.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 4:51 pm

He's averaging a howler per post at the moment.

Here is his latest, in response to Jimmy D pointing out that Gary Mack left Fritz out of a recreation of Oswald being killed:

So what? Who cares? It wasn't FRITZ who got shot, was it? And it wasn't FRITZ who shot Oswald either.

Eliminating Fritz from a re-creation of Oswald's murder is the same as eliminating Nellie Connaly or Roy Kellerman from a reconstruction of JFK's murder.

Erm. No. Chalk and cheese. Nellie was not there to take a bullet for the president, and Kellerman was in no position to take a bullet for the president.

IOW--It makes no difference whatsoever if Captain Fritz is included in a re-creation or not.

It makes a BIG difference. In the DPD files is a document outlining the Fritz plan for the safe transfer of the prisoner. The cornerstone of this plan was that police would form a tight 4 man press around Oswald, with Fritz himself taking the front position. Ruby was only able to shoot Oswald because Fritz BROKE that 4 man press. Taking him out of the equation for a recreation gives the wrong impression that no such plan was in place. In fact, any recreation of the Oswald slaying should not only include Fritz, it should include the details of the Fritz transfer plan.


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 10:45 pm

Von Pein is one of the most deranged individuals I have ever come across. He and others like him have absolutely ZERO interest in the truth behind President Kennedy's unfortunate assassination.

I want to thank researchers such as yourself Greg, including Mr Farley (another terrific researcher) for taking the time to debunk all his garbage. And of course, who could forget all of Jim DiEugenio's monumental efforts.

Ironically, it was Von Pein more than anyone who inspired me to start my own blog on the assassination. With all his BS and insults directed at Conspiracy advocates, I wanted to do all I could to counter him and his ilk.

Perhaps Von Pein would care to answer the 15 very simple questions I have asked Gary Mack on my blog. Perhaps he could start with this one:

In this (linked on my blog) press conference, when DPD chief Jesse Curry was specifically asked if Oswald had travelled to “the other side of town” by a bus, why on Earth didn’t Curry inform them that the DPD had discovered the bus transfer in Oswald’s pocket – especially in light of the fact that he had informed them that “we have heard that he [Oswald] was picked up by a Negroe, in a car”?

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 10:52 pm

Oh, I almost forgot to add that Von Pein uploaded that press conference with Curry on HIS Youtube channel.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Wed 13 Mar 2013, 11:06 pm

Hasan,

Just a quick note for now to welcome you aboard. Lee, Richard, Robert and Frankie are all great contributors here, and among the most generous and good-willed individuals you could ever gather together.

Their knowledge and research abilities are pretty flash as well...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 14 Mar 2013, 1:19 am

Thanks, Greg. It's great to be here. Don't worry, I know they all are, and I didn't mean to single you and Mr Farley out as the only great contributors to the forum. I greatly look forward to discussing the assassination with you and the rest of the guys, whenever I find the time.

Btw, just so you know, your's is the first (and perhaps the only) forum I will ever join. unlike some other forums, I know for a fact that ALL the people here have only the best of intentions when it comes to the JFK assassination.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Thu 14 Mar 2013, 12:05 pm

Btw, just so you know, your's is the first (and perhaps the only) forum I will ever join. unlike some other forums, I know for a fact that ALL the people here have only the best of intentions when it comes to the JFK assassination.

That's much appreciated.

Ironically, it was Von Pein more than anyone who inspired me to start my own blog on the assassination. With all his BS and insults directed at Conspiracy advocates, I wanted to do all I could to counter him and his ilk.

Ha. John McAdams and his Merry Henchmen had a similar effect on me... the obvious spin and outright lies prompted me to go from interested observer to researching their claims, and in doing so, I'd occasionally come across something new ... and now I know what's happened to this last 13 years... Shocked

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 14 Mar 2013, 6:11 pm

If it weren't for clowns like DVP, McAdams, Bugliosi etc, we'd probably be out of business, Greg. I will hopefully be posting later on tonight.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Frankie Vegas on Fri 15 Mar 2013, 6:24 pm

"Peinerisms" - going straight to the pool room. Aka, my Kennedy dictionary.

Welcome Hasan Yusuf Smile Enjoy your stay!

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 15 Mar 2013, 11:03 pm

Frankie Vegas wrote:"Peinerisms" - going straight to the pool room. Aka, my Kennedy dictionary.

Welcome Hasan Yusuf Smile Enjoy your stay!

Hello Ms Vegas. Thank you for the warm welcome. I look forward to discussing the assassination with you.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 16 Mar 2013, 5:04 am

Greg,

Just so you know, I've posted an article on my blog promoting your website. Hopefully it will encourage some more serious researchers to join your forum.

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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by greg parker on Sat 16 Mar 2013, 3:11 pm

Thanks Hasan.


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: DVP on Oswald's guilt

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 16 Mar 2013, 5:14 pm

No worries, Greg. I just hope it doesn't encourage any trolls to sign up.

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