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Rushoman to Judgement

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:18 am

Many happy returns, mate. Hope you have a great day with all the family.

I think the case is there to be made re Crafard, if it doesn't do us in before we get it down...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 10:35 am

I'm not signed on to this idea that Crafard was Ralph Yates' hitchhiker, and didn't mean to give that impression. Crafard doesn't resemble Oswald closely enough, and I think Ralph Yates saw an uncanny resemblance between his hitchhiker & Oswald. I do think that Yates was telling the truth at his polygraph, which he passed, which the FBI proceeded to judge as "inconclusive". In other words, I think that Yates picked up Oswald's "double". But Crafard is a very good alternative, for those who contend that Yates wasn't telling the truth at his polygraph.

This Exhibit 5227 is, shall we say, out there? It seems basically a love letter to his first cousin. The second to last line reads "But Darling my heart cried out against this."
Mankind should be grateful that this passion didn't produce children- or should I say "creatures"? monkey

WCD 1079 shows Crafard's true colors. While crash-landing at Gale Cascaddian's (sp?) house in Michigan after hitching back from Dallas, Crafard passed the time upstairs reading comic books while the downstairs TV showed near-continuous coverage of news programs about the assassination. Gale's characterization: "Crafard seemed about as disturbed over the President's assassination as he would be 'over the killing of a cat'." Shocked

Crafard was not playing with a full deck and was easily malleable in a scheister like Ruby's hands. In my opinion Crafard had a critical role in providing a weapon to the JFK kill zone team, and probably also had some critical role in subsequent events.

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 10:40 am

By the way, Lee, Happy Birthday I love you How does it feel to be as old as a field?

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 10:59 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:I'm not signed on to this idea that Crafard was Ralph Yates' hitchhiker, and didn't mean to give that impression. Crafard doesn't resemble Oswald closely enough, and I think Ralph Yates saw an uncanny resemblance between his hitchhiker & Oswald. I do think that Yates was telling the truth at his polygraph, which he passed,

Richard, c'mon. You know better. If you're going to dispute what has been explained, pony up with something solid. He did not and could not be said to pass (or fail) a polygraph where no reaction is recorded against both control and relevant questions.

which the FBI proceeded to judge as "inconclusive".

It was not a "judgement" call. It is not an area that has any grey.

In other words, I think that Yates picked up Oswald's "double". But Crafard is a very good alternative, for those who contend that Yates wasn't telling the truth at his polygraph.

Fair enough. I'll take that to mean you'll catch this train when you realize the one you're on is a clapped out junker without any steam left. Go for it!

This Exhibit 5227 is, shall we say, out there? It seems basically a love letter to his first cousin. The second to last line reads "But Darling my heart cried out against this."
Mankind should be grateful that this passion didn't produce children- or should I say "creatures"? monkey

Cue duelling banjos

WCD 1079 shows Crafard's true colors. While crash-landing at Gale Cascaddian's (sp?) house in Michigan after hitching back from Dallas, Crafard passed the time upstairs reading comic books while the downstairs TV showed near-continuous coverage of news programs about the assassination. Gale's characterization: "Crafard seemed about as disturbed over the President's assassination as he would be 'over the killing of a cat'." Shocked

Crafard was not playing with a full deck and was easily malleable in a scheister like Ruby's hands. In my opinion Crafard had a critical role in providing a weapon to the JFK kill zone team, and probably also had some critical role in subsequent events.

I really do admire your lack of fear in going for the three-pointers. And I think you do land some. But maybe not here.... the ball is bobbling around the hoop, yet to fall one way or t'other.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 11:55 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:I'm not signed on to this idea that Crafard was Ralph Yates' hitchhiker, and didn't mean to give that impression. Crafard doesn't resemble Oswald closely enough, and I think Ralph Yates saw an uncanny resemblance between his hitchhiker & Oswald.

Richard, you're making me want to pull my hair out. It's not about what we see. It's about what the witnesses saw. If Crafard wasn't a lookalike, then how do you explain Robert Kermit Patterson's statement? How do you explain Burt Griffin's memo? Laura Kittrell, who you back up, thought one of the TEC "Oswald's" may have been Crafard.

You mentioned the Davis sisters would have noticed the scar and missing teeth. But I've posted the FBI report from Patterson who was with Crafard for an hour and mentioned sod all about a lip scar or missing gnashers, and neither did the two people Patterson was with in the store.

Richard Gilbride wrote: In my opinion Crafard had a critical role in providing a weapon to the JFK kill zone team, and probably also had some critical role in subsequent events.

But, Richard, isn't that precisely what some of the Yates fanatics believe the hitchhiker was doing?


Last edited by Lee David Farley on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 12:00 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:By the way, Lee, Happy Birthday I love you How does it feel to be as old as a field?

Cheers Richard. Cheers Greg. And thank you.

I've been dreading this birthday coming for a decade. It's finally here. Just gonna sit and dread the next big one...

I'm off to Chester tomorrow for a meal with the family, so should be a nice day.

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 12:52 pm

Paterson, Ruby, Crafard

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=9881&relPageId=249

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 6:21 pm

greg parker wrote:Paterson, Ruby, Crafard

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=9881&relPageId=249

All wanting to hang together in a titty-bar. Yeah, right...

I suppose some piece of electronic equipment in the store messed up their gaydars..

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 7:23 pm

"While in Harrison on this occasion, Crafard said he had been employed by Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club in Dallas. In addition to being a book-keeper and janitor for Ruby, he 'worked the lights' during the floor show and '...got tired of watching naked women.' Crafard claimed that he served as Jack Ruby's 'personal secretary;' he had coffee with Ruby in the latter's office, and he and Ruby occasionally sat at the end of the bar near the rear door of the Carousel Club and talked. According to Mrs Cascaddan, these statements by Crafard were apparently designed to demonstrate was not only an employee, but also a 'buddy' of Ruby. Too, Crafard gave the impression that his employment by Ruby was a 'big deal' and it had been an honor to work for him." https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11475&relPageId=4

Crafard's exuberance about having worked for Ruby may be partly explained by Ruby's sudden infamy. But I don't think it solely explains it. Ruby knew people. Ruby dropped names. Ruby talked big. And he was kind of in show biz. Crafard had run concession stands at fairs and done a few other drab jobs. He had been given an early general discharge from the army. Ruby gave him "important" jobs. Important sounding titles. It's no wonder Crafard looked up to him.

Now go back to Ralph's hitch-hiker. He allegedly asked Ralph if he knew Ruby or had heard of the Carousel. Those pushing the doppleganger theory make all sorts of nonsense out of that.

But if this was Crafard (as I think is more than possible), it makes sense that he was asking about Ruby. If Yates had heard of this important man, Crafard could brag that he worked for him, or was an associate, and that was where he was headed: to the Carousel. It would have been a big boost to his self-esteem.

When the answer to both was negative, the subject was probably dropped and there would be no point to asking to be taken those 6 or so extra blocks...

Yates described his hiker as

5' 9"
slender
dark eyebrows and hair

FBI description of Crafard

Age. 22
Height. 5'8"
Weight. 150 lbs
Hair. Brown
Eyes. Brown
Complexion. Med
1/2" scar center of upper lip

Photo of Crafard

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0100a.htm

I note RC-D does not think Crafard's hair and eyebrows could be described as "dark". Maybe it's just me, but I don't think "dark" is exactly way off the mark.

Crafard was mistaken for Oswald at an electronic store. That's now beyond dispute.

Addionally, I think he was mistaken for Oswald in the Carousel club, at sex parties Ruby held or attended, and possibly at Dobb's House just before Yates drove onto the scene in his trusty pickup.


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 7:38 pm

Lee David Farley wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:Lee,

The handwriting in that Crafard exhibit is probably the worst I've ever read, but I think that what you made out from it is correct. Somebody should have given Crafard proper handwriting lessons.

Thanks for your perspective, Hasan.

Let's see what Greg and Richard think and if we've got the four of us saying the same thing then I'm claiming a home run.

It's interesting isn't it, how Hubert glosses over the content. Offering to give Crafard the letter back because it was "personal." I don't believe we have the whole letter. But they had Crafard on the stand for days. His testimony goes on for hundreds of pages. They were specifically asking about Jack Ruby's possible homosexuality but failed to ask Crafard about his given the content of the letter that they had in their damn hands.

Unbelievable Shocked

I certainly agree that it's unbelievable, Lee. And as you undoubtedly know better than myself, practically everything concerning this case is unbelievable. I mean, Johnny Brewer giving his first statement to the DPD 14 days after the assassination, Oswald's jacket being "discovered" more than 3 weeks after the assassination in the TSBD, the memories of certain witnesses remarkably improving over time etc.

I wish I could contribute more to this fascinating discussion, but I'm probably gonna be pretty busy with my damn review of the Don Thomas book. My guess is that both Greg and Richard will agree with us about the Crafard letter.

I once was flabbergasted by the time it took them to formally interview the likes of Brewer and Postal, Hasan. It was Greg who gave me the best explanation that made me understand it better. On the afternoon of 11/24 the case was all but shut once Oswald was declared dead. The "investigation" was all but dead too. It wasn't until the Warren Commission was announced that the different agencies shit a brick and ran out to do the work they should have been doing throughout the end of November and early December. I think you'll find the interviews of the likes of Brewer and Postal, as well as the submission of many outstanding DPD reports all coincide with the announcement of the Warren Commission. I'm sure the jacket being found also coincided with it.

Something to consider as you stumble onto things in the future...

Thanks, Lee. I think that's the best explanation there is. Though let me say that I don't believe that Oswald was ever outside Brewer's store looking "funny/scared". I think your contributions (and Richard's) to the Jacket issue would be highly valuable whenever you find the time.

Also, Happy Birthday, and have a great day.

Hasan Yusuf

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 7:45 pm

Though let me say that I don't believe that Oswald was ever outside Brewer's store looking "funny/scared".

Exactly, Hasan. It's total crap.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 7:46 pm

greg parker wrote:
"While in Harrison on this occasion, Crafard said he had been employed by Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club in Dallas. In addition to being a book-keeper and janitor for Ruby, he 'worked the lights' during the floor show and '...got tired of watching naked women.' Crafard claimed that he served as Jack Ruby's 'personal secretary;' he had coffee with Ruby in the latter's office, and he and Ruby occasionally sat at the end of the bar near the rear door of the Carousel Club and talked. According to Mrs Cascaddan, these statements by Crafard were apparently designed to demonstrate was not only an employee, but also a 'buddy' of Ruby. Too, Crafard gave the impression that his employment by Ruby was a 'big deal' and it had been an honor to work for him." https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11475&relPageId=4

Crafard's exuberance about having worked for Ruby may be partly explained by Ruby's sudden infamy. But I don't think it solely explains it. Ruby knew people. Ruby dropped names. Ruby talked big. And he was kind of in show biz. Crafard had run concession stands at fairs and done a few other drab jobs. He had been given an early general discharge from the army. Ruby gave him "important" jobs. Important sounding titles. It's no wonder Crafard looked up to him.

Now go back to Ralph's hitch-hiker. He allegedly asked Ralph if he knew Ruby or had heard of the Carousel. Those pushing the doppleganger theory make all sorts of nonsense out of that.

But if this was Crafard (as I think is more than possible), it makes sense that he was asking about Ruby. If Yates had heard of this important man, Crafard could brag that he worked for him, or was an associate, and that was where he was headed: to the Carousel. It would have been a big boost to his self-esteem.

When the answer to both was negative, the subject was probably dropped and there would be no point to asking to be taken those 6 or so extra blocks...

Yates described his hiker as

5' 9"
slender
dark eyebrows and hair

FBI description of Crafard

Age. 22
Height. 5'8"
Weight. 150 lbs
Hair. Brown
Eyes. Brown
Complexion. Med
1/2" scar center of upper lip

Photo of Crafard

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0100a.htm

I note RC-D does not think Crafard's hair and eyebrows could be described as "dark". Maybe it's just me, but I don't think "dark" is exactly way off the mark.

Crafard was mistaken for Oswald at an electronic store. That's now beyond dispute.

Addionally, I think he was mistaken for Oswald in the Carousel club, at sex parties Ruby held or attended, and possibly at Dobb's House just before Yates drove onto the scene in his trusty pickup.


Greg,

Any idea what was involved in homosexual aversion therapy in the 1960's? Ralph was possibly seeing a psychiatrist and was on medication prior to his FBI visit. Do you think it likely that he was part of an aversion programme with Dr. Weaver? i mean, homosexuality in many circles was seen as a mental illness wasn't it?

He turns up to his first FBI interview with his uncle and not his wife. He specifically asks that he not receive any media attention. He cannot prove why he was in Oak Cliff. He's picking up strange men and this one (possibly) just happens to hang around with Big Butch Pinky Ruby.

Would his wife finding out, if he was partaking in homosexual activities, not send him a bit doo-lally? Five kids?

P.S. I thought the eyebrows quote from RCD was a bit left-field. Does the case hinge on dark versus brown eyebrows?



Last edited by Lee David Farley on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 7:55 pm

greg parker wrote:Lee,

Here's what I get, in part,

"I thought you could tell it by looking at my face and the way I touched you & talked to you. I guess that for some stupid reason I thought you may have felt the same way."

The big question is - is it addressed to "Gail" or "Gale" because the former would more than likely denote "female" and the latter, a "male" - as in the actor Gale Gordon.

Greg,

After looking at the Crafard letter a second time, it looks to me like you're right. Except instead of "I guess that for some stupid reason I thought you may have felt the same way" I think it's "I guess that for some stupid reason I hoped that you might have felt the same way".

Could Crafard's writing have honestly been worse.

Hasan Yusuf

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:19 pm

Greg,

The WC brought a Robert Carl Patterson in concerning the name Boby Patterson being in /Ruby/Crafard's notebook. He said he played the Vegas Club as a musician and that's why his name was in the book.

I'd like to find out if the Tippt shooting witness called Patterson (who was with Lewis) was any relation to Robert K. Patterson.

P.S. Crafard's WC exhibit's has one missing from what I can tell

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:38 pm

Greg,

Any idea what was involved in homosexual aversion therapy in the 1960's? Ralph was possibly seeing a psychiatrist and was on medication prior to his FBI visit. Do you think it likely that he was part of an aversion programme with Dr. Weaver? i mean, homosexuality in many circles was seen as a mental illness wasn't it?


Actually I can answer this straight away from past mkultra/ferrie research.

Dr Robert Heath at Tulane...


Maybe they were doing something similar in Dallas... or using other methods, but this does show that homosexuality was something to be "cured".

He turns up to his first FBI interview with his uncle and not his wife. He specifically asks that he not receive any media attention. He cannot prove why he was in Oak Cliff. He's picking up strange men and this one (possibly) just happens to hang around with Big Butch Pinky Ruby.

Would his wife finding out, if he was partaking in homosexual activities, not send him a bit doo-lally? Five kids?

P.S. I thought the eyebrows quote from RCD was a bit left-field. Does the case hinge on dark versus brown eyebrows?


I don't know. Maybe Robert's thinking was that Crafard's just aren't memorable...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3443
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:40 pm

The Treatment of Homosexuality as a Disease
Until 1973, when the American Psychiatric Association officially removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders....

http://www.drcsilverstein.com/publications/history

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:48 pm

This is from Crafard's testimony:

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you serve altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Thirteen months.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the usual tour?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. General, under honorable conditions.
A medical discharge would be under honorable conditions - not general.

What will get you a general discharge is being gay.

From a site on how to get out of the army:

4. Claim to be gay or bisexual. Under the "don't ask, don't tell" law, expressing attraction to the same sex or engaging in "homosexual acts" is grounds for discharge. Sounds much better than shooting yourself in the foot for a medical discharge, doesn't it? There are two problems, however. First of all, if your commander doesn't believe you, you won't get the discharge. Secondly, you will get a "General Discharge" rather than the "Honorable Discharge" given to most soldiers, which is somewhat of a blot on your record.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4840471_out-military-early.html

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:59 pm

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PJfUHb7mB9UC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=jolly+west+homosexual+aversion&source=bl&ots=XUcppGwe3U&sig=yU-pIPGruZAr4HntEH7WMysm_lQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GP1bUdypD4Oh0QXZqYCoDQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jolly%20west%20homosexual%20aversion&f=false

Some aversion programmes also consisted of shock therapy which I believe Ralph Yates was subjected to many of.

From the looks of it BYU and the Mormons were still trying to cure homosexuality this way long after it was taken off the mental illness list.


Last edited by Lee David Farley on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:11 pm

Lee David Farley wrote:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PJfUHb7mB9UC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=jolly+west+homosexual+aversion&source=bl&ots=XUcppGwe3U&sig=yU-pIPGruZAr4HntEH7WMysm_lQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GP1bUdypD4Oh0QXZqYCoDQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jolly%20west%20homosexual%20aversion&f=false

1975... 2 years after homosexuality was taken out of the textbooks as a psychiatric problem.

I actually remember Nixon's push to eradicate violence the West way... it was a huge story in the day...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:13 pm

greg parker wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PJfUHb7mB9UC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=jolly+west+homosexual+aversion&source=bl&ots=XUcppGwe3U&sig=yU-pIPGruZAr4HntEH7WMysm_lQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GP1bUdypD4Oh0QXZqYCoDQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jolly%20west%20homosexual%20aversion&f=false

1975... 2 years after homosexuality was taken out of the textbooks as a psychiatric problem.

I actually remember Nixon's push to eradicate violence the West way... it was a huge story in the day...

If Jolly was still up to after it was taken off the list then one can only imagine what he was up to when it was on it.

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:19 pm

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=147009


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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:29 pm

Lee David Farley wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PJfUHb7mB9UC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=jolly+west+homosexual+aversion&source=bl&ots=XUcppGwe3U&sig=yU-pIPGruZAr4HntEH7WMysm_lQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GP1bUdypD4Oh0QXZqYCoDQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jolly%20west%20homosexual%20aversion&f=false

1975... 2 years after homosexuality was taken out of the textbooks as a psychiatric problem.

I actually remember Nixon's push to eradicate violence the West way... it was a huge story in the day...

If Jolly was still up to after it was taken off the list then one can only imagine what he was up to when it was on it.

More from http://www.drcsilverstein.com/publications/history

The behaviorist school in psychology also attempted to convert gay people into heterosexuals. Some of their treatments were caustic. Three forms of aversion therapy were used. The first was electrical aversion therapy, in which an electric shock was administered to the patient if he responded erotically to a picture of a new man. Another technique was called covert sensitization, in which disgust and images of vomit were thought to cure homosexual desire. The third type of aversion therapy used the drug apomorphine, which induces nausea in the patient. Gay liberationists viewed these aversive procedures as punishment, not treatment.

Davison, who later rejected his early work, called his system "Playboy therapy," in which a gay man masturbated to pictures of naked women. A good review of the aversion therapy literature is provided by Bancroft, who himself contributed significantly to the aversion therapy literature. Masters and Johnson also attempted to change the sexual orientation of gay people.

Perhaps the most bizarre attempt to reorient the sexual orientation of a gay man was performed by Heath at Tulane University in 1972. Heath implanted electrodes into the brain of a gay man. The patient was then placed in a room with a woman prostitute, who was hired to seduce him. As the same time, Heath stimulated the pleasure centers in the brain of the man. This attempt was not a success.

Was Crafard "encouraged" to get married as part of some therapy... so deliberately chose a lesbian to circumnavigate the "cure"?

Was he "sick of looking at naked women" as his cousin quoted him, because he had been forced to feed the chickens with the help of Playboy?

I think you may be onto something with Ralph.... the above is far more speculative... but who knows?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Thu 04 Apr 2013, 9:11 am

Crafard being gay is entirely conceivable, for reasons stated. It would also help explain why Ruby so instantly placed him in a position of great trust.

But Ralph Yates? While not impossible, in my experience on this planet, gay men don’t usually have five children. Not because they’re incapable of the contribution required, but because they don’t relish physical intimacy with women sufficiently to impregnate a woman five times. Yet Ralph seems to have managed five kids by a very early age, indeed. But anything’s possible, one supposes.

As for the description of hair and eyebrows provided by Yates, “dark” is a relative term and it would have been nice had authorities insisted on an actual colour, such as black or brown or chestnut, or what have you. Perhaps it’s just me, but when I think of blonde, brunette and black, I think light, medium and dark.

Though I cannot at present recall where, I long ago saw a photo of Crafard in which he looked more fair than he is usually depicted in photos, and thought the difference was down to using some kind of pomade like Brylcreem. Pre-Beatles, slicked hair was very much the fashion in North America, and the requisite liberal use of pomade gave me - for example - hair several shades darker than what the Good Lord provided me.

Crafard-as-hitchhiker would explain much, but I’m not sure how one would be able to corroborate it. And I do think that had it been him, he would have prevailed upon Yates to drive him to the club instead of Houston and Elm. Unless, or course, that was his intended destination because he was dropping something off for Warren Caster, who apparently needed new curtain rods. ;-)

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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by Guest on Thu 04 Apr 2013, 11:32 am

Yates polygraph fact: Dorothy Yates told James Douglass in 2006 that the FBI in January 1964 told her that her husband was telling the truth at his polygraph test.

I really can't express the reasons why it was reported as inconclusive better than Jim DiEugenio and Albert Doyle have at Deep Politics, so I will repost excerpts from their posts #23 and #24:

DiEugenio: I have never heard of not getting any reactions to control questions.

A control question is one in which the operator asks the witness a question that he can predict the outcome. He does this to get good test readings to compare the relevant questions to.

An experienced operator knows the questions to ask here in order to get the desired result...

Doyle: ...A lie will cause muscle tightening, increased breathing, and other nervous responses that register at the electronic sensor level as the mind worries about incriminating conflicts and getting caught. This can generally be called "emotional responses." Meanwhile a truthful person is relaxed and casual and feels no reasons for stress when answering the questions. This shows up on the polygraph as relaxed chart lines that flow without any wiggles.

So FBI had a problem where it needed to construct semantics that would satisfy their need to obey national security orders while not directly lying about the true test results. The simple answer was to use the wording "Yates showed no emotional response to the questions." In other words Yates showed no wiggles or stress reactions to the questions. His chart flowed smoothly without any observable reaction. In a very perverted interpretation of the results the FBI said the results were "inconclusive."

*******

Since it was reported that Yates responded to neither control questions nor relevant questions, i.e. since he supposedly flat-lined to both types of questions, I have to assume that the examiner didn't ask any (not one) control question that would trigger a deceptive response, in order to set a benchmark for comparison, for detecting a lie when the pertinent questions were asked.

That's a pretty suspect test, and it seems that before they commenced it they wanted a null result.




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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

Post by greg parker on Thu 04 Apr 2013, 6:37 pm

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:Crafard being gay is entirely conceivable, for reasons stated. It would also help explain why Ruby so instantly placed him in a position of great trust.

"He [Ruby] liked to surround himself with clean cut, well-dressed 'Hollywood"-type men because it made him feel important."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57076&relPageId=88

But Ralph Yates? While not impossible, in my experience on this planet, gay men don’t usually have five children. Not because they’re incapable of the contribution required, but because they don’t relish physical intimacy with women sufficiently to impregnate a woman five times. Yet Ralph seems to have managed five kids by a very early age, indeed. But anything’s possible, one supposes.

I'm pretty sure Crafard's lesbian wife had a kid with him, and I've heard of fathers waiting for their kids to grow up and then having a sex change. As you say, anything is possible. Maybe he just "turned" or maybe he had been trying extra hard to live in denial. Five kids. Who's gonna question his manliness?

As for the description of hair and eyebrows provided by Yates, “dark” is a relative term and it would have been nice had authorities insisted on an actual colour, such as black or brown or chestnut, or what have you. Perhaps it’s just me, but when I think of blonde, brunette and black, I think light, medium and dark.

Though I cannot at present recall where, I long ago saw a photo of Crafard in which he looked more fair than he is usually depicted in photos, and thought the difference was down to using some kind of pomade like Brylcreem. Pre-Beatles, slicked hair was very much the fashion in North America, and the requisite liberal use of pomade gave me - for example - hair several shades darker than what the Good Lord provided me.

Thanks for clarifying your definitions. Maybe he wore pomade that day?

Crafard-as-hitchhiker would explain much, but I’m not sure how one would be able to corroborate it.

Well, the doppleganger theory has been getting along just fine without corroboration. Just lots of picking and choosing and misrepresentation of evidence.

And I do think that had it been him, he would have prevailed upon Yates to drive him to the club instead of Houston and Elm.

I tried to cover this earlier:
----------------------------------
While in Harrison on this occasion, Crafard said he had been employed by Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club in Dallas. In addition to being a book-keeper and janitor for Ruby, he 'worked the lights' during the floor show and '...got tired of watching naked women.' Crafard claimed that he served as Jack Ruby's 'personal secretary;' he had coffee with Ruby in the latter's office, and he and Ruby occasionally sat at the end of the bar near the rear door of the Carousel Club and talked. According to Mrs Cascaddan, these statements by Crafard were apparently designed to demonstrate was not only an employee, but also a 'buddy' of Ruby. Too, Crafard gave the impression that his employment by Ruby was a 'big deal' and it had been an honor to work for him." https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11475&relPageId=4

Crafard's exuberance about having worked for Ruby may be partly explained by Ruby's sudden infamy. But I don't think it solely explains it. Ruby knew people. Ruby dropped names. Ruby talked big. And he was kind of in show biz. Crafard had run concession stands at fairs and done a few other drab jobs. He had been given an early general discharge from the army. Ruby gave him "important" jobs. Important sounding titles. It's no wonder Crafard looked up to him.

Now go back to Ralph's hitch-hiker. He allegedly asked Ralph if he knew Ruby or had heard of the Carousel. Those pushing the doppleganger theory make all sorts of nonsense out of that.

But if this was Crafard (as I think is more than possible), it makes sense that he was asking about Ruby. If Yates had heard of this important man, Crafard could brag that he worked for him, or was an associate, and that was where he was headed: to the Carousel. It would have been a big boost to his self-esteem.

When the answer to both was negative, the subject was probably dropped and there would be no point to asking to be taken those 6 or so extra blocks...

-----------------------------------------------------
Unless, or course, that was his intended destination because he was dropping something off for Warren Caster, who apparently needed new curtain rods. ;-) bom

On Yates and his request for anonymity:

Consider that his request had nothing to do with fear of reprisals from conspirators. If he was in Oak Cliff "cruising" for men, I think that would be sufficient reason to want to keep a low profile. It would also account for no one supporting him having a work-related reason to be there and why he was trawling around looking for a time he was legitimately there so he could say "well it must have been that day."

There is no doubt in my mind that Larry was not only gay but that he was prostituting himself. That Californian jacket was almost a "trade" uniform (yes, the jacket also underwent scrutiny - not by me - but in a thorough, professional manner by someone trusted, even to the extent of talking to clothing historians, among others. For these reasons, I believe it was Crafard and not Oswald seen by witnesses at Ruby's swinging sex parties.

Since it was brought up at the other forum regarding "typical" doppleganger sightings... are there any other examples where the "double" not only forgets to say his name is "Oswald", but DOES mention Ruby and the Carousel?



_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Rushoman to Judgement

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