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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Mon 31 Jul 2017, 7:01 pm
To me this is an attempt to combine the stories of Williams, Givens and Piper into one. A leaked story to bolster the LN scenario. Likely Givens got closest but could not be placed there are the same time as the shots. Second best was to use him with the cigarette story. 

Then again I have never believed Piper's testimony. Who knows what these guys saw/heard.
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Fri 26 Oct 2018, 11:48 am
So am I right in thinking that it's possible to have Dougherty and Piper up on the 6th floor while the shots were fired.
And Williams Norman and Jarman came  up to the 5th floor to watch the parade but only after they'd eaten downstairs first

Is that possible?
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sat 27 Oct 2018, 8:56 am
Some thoughts,

We can put Jack on sixth floor.
Not sure he was near the windows to be witnessed by anyone on Houston St. or Elm.
Getting stock is vauge. Tho it could put him anywhere on six. but unless he was pulling stock from the wall of books in front of those windows it is unlikely he "could" be seen.

Piper... has the ring of uncorroborated testimony
West doesnt confirm him
Truly doesnt confirm him
Shelley mucks it up for him.

 "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade."

Piper is going to fourth floor and collect mail as he works his way down at around 11am.
Would it be easier to take an elevator or walk up four flights of stairs?
Old man Piper is taking an elevator.
We know the clipboard with the Scott Foresman orders was found by Frankie Kaiser up on six, that Lee was going to fill likely after lunchtime.
Possibly Lee did take an elevator up around 11:30 and Piper was in it.
Piper would only need the elevator to go to 4th... would he really need to take Lee up to six and then come back down to 4th floor???

Why when everyone was distancing themselves would Piper include himself in a murder.

Point of fact only the front passenger elevator could be "sent back up"

Rear freight elevator had controls inside and you had to close both inner and outer gates before controls worked.
Same for rear passenger elevator, it required a person inside it to operate it.

Whereas front elevator you could push the button hop off and thus send that elevator to high as fourth floor... exactly where Piper would get off to go collect mail.
Can not send any elevator 'back up' to six.

I have never seen any "crates" on six floor especially near the stairwell, as pictures document clearly.
Cartons of books are hardly crates though it is tempting to brush this off that way.
And there is no where to hide, crates withstanding, near the stairs, or near the door to the stairs. Why not run down them if you ran to them.... especially if you are a quote scared nigger whom no one seen run that fast before end quote.
And Lee nearly steps on him to go down the stairs.
Oh a good afterthought as there is no where to hide you might as well lay in front of the stairway entrance......and get stepped on by fleeing murderer.
Yeah.

Recall this is Waldo hearing the story through another party. Informant yada yada.

I have so many problems with this piece of journalism its better I stop here.

 More on Waldo's World,
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwaldo.htm


Mick, could they both have been on six.
Maybe, Jack yes, Eddie denies.

Rowlands times could be off, yes.
Rowland sure as hell did not see an assassin in the sfw shoot anyone.
So any basis on this idea ruins possibly a good witness.
No shots fired from TSBD equals wishful witnesses.

Did Euins see Piper.
Maybe.
But Piper wasnt blowing JFKs brains about the limo...so again no assassin, no active shooter with a rifle spitting fire and puff of smoke. Nada.
Euins story change to seeing that man before the parade approached to after it was going past.
So when is it best *possible* all these folks saw Piper.
It would be well before the parade approached.

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sat 27 Oct 2018, 9:30 am
Thank -you Ed,

and yes if they were at the window or close by they were sighted well before the parade. That's what I'm thinking. In my version Piper was told to piss off downstairs by Dougherty. :-)
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 4:52 am
Beauty Mick,
...maybe Piper "portered" Jack up to six.
as you say got no love from Jack so he hit the bricks
It is more believable than their two intertwined stories.
Cheers, Ed
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 6:45 am
This could be just a case of processing the most recent inputs to the echo chambers in my brain, but i just finished listening to the DPUK video by Mike Dworetsky (excellent work) and it occurs to me that if Dougherty was up there with a gun, by himself as discussed by Mick and Ed above, then he could have poked the rifle out the window and fired that first shot and bolted out of there while more shots followed from other locations (Daltex and the knoll). As we have discussed at length, Dougherty is the one big mystery man in the TSBD (along with Shelley). 


Mike Dworetsky suggested the first shot could be one that hit the pavement, the point being it was off target and ill timed, possibly a result of nerves. All good. It could also be that the first shot needed to be from a barrel out a window, to catch any eyes that saw it, and to commit the larger crew to action, possibly on a signal to Dougherty. (breaker thrown in the basement that turned out the lights in the elevator circuit on the sixth floor maybe?). Such a signal shot by definition would be "ill timed" in relation to the actual kill shots.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 7:36 am
If the limo windshield is cracked in Altgens 6 and we can see Jfk reaction to a bullet strike(? or shrapnel?)
Does that mean he was shot at before he is shot?
Do we think the agents and motor officers are reacting to the "Second Shot" in Alt6?
Since the Warren Commission could not define the shots as Miss Hit Hit or Hit Miss Hit, we are left with possibilities and perhaps the FBI or SS is correct or maybe even Mike Dworetsky. I'd say its 50-50 odds
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 7:38 am
Point is speculation is ripe for the picking.

No one sees such a plump, round faced man as Jack in that window or sticking a rifle out any window and no one sees, films, or photographs discharge of rifle in any TSBD window.
Did not happen.

99.9999999% say first shot was low, firecracker like, not a high rifle report...
Is anyone in Alt6 looking up?

Good questions, all answered.
Ed
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 8:24 am
Ed,
Did we ever get a photo of Jack.
I'm not sure that he would've fired a shot from that building but I'm leaning to him being up there on the 6th and up to no good.....

Jake, looking at that Photo again of the Daltex POV shot looking down Elm and at the snipers nest, the window facing East? of the TSBD...wow! Jack panicked saw the shooter in at the Deltex and dumped the lay down rifle and got outta there
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 9:53 am
I have a better description and can look again at images for Jack.
I think he was as he said getting stock and was doing so early before the flooring crew got through with lunch and hogged the elevators.
Jack would be pulling stacks of book boxes from the pallets of books up on floors 5 and 6.
He would hand truck the stacks over to the elevator and then take elevator down to 5 and repeat.

If its claimed Jack planted the rifle or arrainged the snipers nest boxes.... Im not convinced.
Or even rearranges the boxes minutes later.
I think there is possibility Jack did what others in the building did. Went to the nearest window to get a view of what was going on Outside thd TSBD
https://youtu.be/FR5CwcRWGMM
could that be Jack? It sure could be given his whereabouts at the time.
He would go from elevators to the closest Elm street window to see the excitement.... it fits with the Dillard images mystery man. Then he goes back and takes the freight elevator he has stock loaded on down to shipping floor, unloads the elevator and sees Piper whom he converses with then takes elevator back up to 5 to finish pulling stock.

What do you think Mick?
Cheers, Ed
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 10:22 am
I wax and wane on Jack's possible involvement Ed, 

I'm not totally convinced either. But a couple of things strike me about  Dougherty....the bullshit story about him being a retard from Truly,over the top in my view and The record does not support that claim. And the other thing is his opening up in the mornings with his set of keys.....
With what we know of Oswald being out front just after the shots -Dougherty as near as I can see is one of the only white males not accounted for entirely for his whereabouts when the shots rang out and just for that matter neither was Piper, not really anyways and didn't he close up at nights and have a set of keys also.

I know in the past people have said "hey it'd be easy to get a rifle into that building circa 1963" Noone would've given it a second thought seeing a rifle in at work.

I get that. But someone still has to account for that. Caster on Wednesday? Or Frazier and a handover to Dougherty early Friday morning.
Who had the opportunity to place the rifle among the boxes without being seen....not many I would think. I can't imagine that rifle was planted too early in the day for fear of it's discovery by one of the employees.

In my view Dougherty or Piper had the opportunity.

Just my thoughts....
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 12:21 pm
Some quick thoughts.

Piper told the FBI in December that he saw Oswald shortly after starting work at 10:00 am. Oswald was filling orders. He is unequivocal that he never saw Oswald the rest of the day and also unequivocal that he never ever spoke to Oswald the whole time Oswald worked there.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=580

Yet he would later tell the commission that he not only did see Oswald a second time that day, he spoke to him at or near to the start of the lunch break and reminded Oswald it was time for lunch, which brings him full circle back to what he said in his Nov 23 affidavit. 

Piper does not mention anything about Dougherty in either of his appearance before the commission, or any statement as far as I can see,

Yet dougherty had this to say:



If I am any judge, Dougherty gave away the truth and lied at the prompting of Ball to distance himself from that truth.

"I said, 'has the president been shot?'"  

This conversation never took place, at least not on the first floor, but Dougherty put his foot right in it when he said the above. 

For his part, Piper testified that he could not see anything through the window except the crowd and in his FBI interview, he told the agents that he determined "later" what had happened. Since West didn't watch the parade and West denied even seeing Piper, he could not have determined from him. According to his testimony, the next person he sees is Truly with a cop or agent, but the only words exchanged are about th elevator. In any case, Truly did not recall seeing Piper either.

Dougherty knew the president had been shot before he came down that elevator. Piper also knew the president had been shot, and it could not have been from seeing it through a first floor window, or from West or Truly.

I agree that elements of the story of Piper, Givens and the elevator operator at the Dal-Tex have been combined. 

The news account I posted earlier in this tread, gave the age of the witness as 30 - too young to be Piper - yet in other respects, it does describe Piper more than Givens or the Dal-Tex guy. For a start, neither of those were janitors. 

On the other other hand... according to Braden, the elevator operator at the Dal-Tex ran up the hallway and out to a police officer and was vry "agitated and excited", so he is a better match for the "scared nigger" as it was put at the time.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=19906&search=braden#relPageId=78&tab=page

(Braden btw, was questioned in part by a Mr Purdy)

One other point... to Mick... Piper testified that he NEVER ran to the coffee area to get a better look. He claimed it was see what time it was. In his initial statement, he claimed it was 12:25 - the time the motorcade was due - not the time it arrived. In his testimony, he obviously knew better and amended it to a more accurate, but less specific 12:27 to 12:30. 

Piper did not watch the motorcade from any first floor window. I believe he had lunch with Dougherty in the domino room and departed with ho,m from there to the 6th floor. Interestingly, Piper testified he retrieved his lunch from the basement. What else was down there (apart from Frazier's lunch)? A wrapped up throwdown maybe? Did Dougherty go with Piper to the basement?

Lastly,  Dougherty testified that after the assassination when he came down from the 5th, he was asked where the boss was by an FBI agen so went looking for him.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he (Truly) was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
 
What Dougherty is saying is that he found out some time later, that Truly had been on the 4th floor at time he was looking for him, but that he had somehow missed seeing him in his search. 

So Dougherty never heard Truly call for an elevator when he was up on 5 and never saw him on 4 when looking for him. He never heard the acll because it was never made. He missed seeing Truly on 4 because Truly and Sawyer were searching the storage area. 

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Mon 29 Oct 2018, 3:29 pm
This may not belong here, but since we're talking about Jack Dougherty. In 2013, Sean Murphy laid out his thoughts on the movement of the elevators relative to Jack Dougherty and I included it in Prayer Man. Having zero knowledge on this at the time, I simply accepted it until such time I learned more information to either strengthen or undermine the theory.  I'm taking a fresh look at this and I'm trying to get my head around it, so I'd like to lay it out here—expressed in my words—for any comments, pro or con.
 
Basic sequence:
 
James Jarman and Harold Norman get off the west elevator on the fifth floor of the TSBD to watch the motorcade. After doing so, they push the gate down which allows the elevator to be called by someone else on another floor.
 
Jack Dougherty, who had been working on the sixth floor earlier, arrives on the sixth floor to watch the motorcade. He sees one or more strangers up there and at least one is holding a rifle. He quickly goes down to the fifth floor.
 
Jack Dougherty hears a shot and runs down to the first floor via the rear stairs. He encounters Eddie Piper. Jack asks Piper if he heard anything and Piper says he heard three shots.
 
After encountering Oswald near the front entrance, Truly and Baker make their way to the NW corner of the TSBD. They press the button for the west elevator and it comes down. They take it up to the seventh floor in order to gain access to the roof to check it.
 
The strangers on the sixth floor use the east elevator to escape (the east elevator cannot be summoned from another floor, even if the gates are down). They leave the poorly-guarded building.
 
Notes:
 
First-day/early evidence is more reliable than later information/testimony.
 
Dougherty's first two statements (11/22-23) are consistent in one point: he heard one shot, one loud explosion that sounded like a rifle shot. He sticks to this even when recounting that Eddie Piper told him he heard three shots. [I haven't gone over Jack's WC testimony in detail yet.]
 
The reason for the story to change where Truly and Baker couldn't get the elevator on the first floor so they ran up the rear stairs to find the stuck elevator on the fifth floor instead, has to do with the First to Second Evolution process. The official authorities needed an Oswald sighting on the escape route they were developing: seeing Oswald on the second floor after he ran down from the sixth was the only way to pull this off.
 
Along with this, after climbing the stairs and having the second floor lunchroom encounter, Truly and Baker say they continue to work their way up to the fifth floor where they see only the east elevator. Then they say they take that up the last two floors.
 
By Truly claiming to have taken the east elevator up from the fifth to the seventh floor instead of coming off the stairs on the fifth floor to take the elevator they were on all the time (west), they help to preserve the notion of Oswald sole guilt.
 
Reality: Truly and Baker encounter Oswald down in front, then take west elevator from the first to the seventh floor. Strangers use the (staged & ready) east elevator to escape.
 
Fiction: Oswald runs down rear stairs to second floor lunchroom. Truly and Baker try elevators, no worky, run up rear stairs, encounter Oswald, continue running up the stairs to fifth floor, find east elevator, continue up to seventh.
 
If the above is true, Jack would have had to fly down the stairs quickly to avoid detection by Vicky Adams.  
 
Bonnie Ray Williams said on his 11/23 FBI statement that "someone might have been coming down on the elevator and they would not have noticed that." This, to me, lends possible support for bad guys using the east elevator for a getaway.
 
I know there's much discussion about Piper right now and I'm still reading that and trying to follow the arguments.

Just wanted to jot this down as it helps me think.
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Mon 29 Oct 2018, 7:11 pm
Nice work detective.
Good points on calling or not calling the elevators.
Could Jack take East elevator down.
I mean Truly Baker avoided floor six where Jack 'was' did he walk down to 5 and take it...if it was on 5.
The Truly Baker duo sure did not run into Jack, and besides possibly Piper no one else did.
So Jack isnt downstairs by time Truly Baker arrive to either take stairs or elevator.
Jack aint on five when B&T arrived there, but supposedly Williams sees Bakers White Helmet go to an elevator (East?) and go (up? down?)
Jack is not seen by anyone on the stairs, or by Vicki Adams Styles Otis or Gardner... he must of been lightning quick, retard strength but in track and field.

I need coffee..., that and a time motion study of all employees...that helps me think.
Btw it feels like Im playing 3D chess, juggling people on elevators and stairwells
Besides, Jack cant even run into Truly when asked to by Fbi agent and makes a concerted effort.
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Mon 29 Oct 2018, 10:54 pm
Stan, I like it. One shot heard by Jack works with the notion that other shots came from Daltex.
Ed, I'm hatching an idea for a simplified time motion study tool. No promises. It will take time if it ever gets in motion.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Tue 30 Oct 2018, 9:32 am

Now if Jack was standing in the SE corner of the TSBDB on the 6th floor near the window facing the Daltex, just where that line of sight leads up to the seventh floor of the Daltex window in this pic- well you get the idea. Jack may have even fired off a stray shot, may have stuck the barrel out the window too. He looked up though after hearing an explosion coming from slightly above and to his left - saw the real assassin in the window- and well he panicked- threw the throw down rifle over yonder an got outta there....

Fact or fiction....who knows
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Tue 30 Oct 2018, 12:37 pm
I have only researched two other assassinations. RFK and Jorge Gaitan. 

In both of those cases, the patsy has (wildly) fired at least one shot - and then is blamed for all, with the real assassin being able to hide his shots, even if he can be seen (In Gaitan's case, the real killer had his pistol hidden by a coat wrapped around his hand and arm). 

In this case, since the patsy was not being controlled MKULTRA-like, as appears to be the case in the other two assassinations, someone else would have to be seen or heard firing off a shot which could be tied to your patsy or at least to your patsy's alleged location - and then you can take the next step of pinning ALL the shots on him.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 6:06 am
Stan Dane wrote:Basic sequence:
 
James Jarman and Harold Norman get off the west elevator on the fifth floor of the TSBD to watch the motorcade. After doing so, they push the gate down which allows the elevator to be called by someone else on another floor.
 
Jack Dougherty, who had been working on the sixth floor earlier, arrives on the sixth floor to watch the motorcade. He sees one or more strangers up there and at least one is holding a rifle. He quickly goes down to the fifth floor.
 
Jack Dougherty hears a shot and runs down to the first floor via the rear stairs. He encounters Eddie Piper. Jack asks Piper if he heard anything and Piper says he heard three shots.
 
After encountering Oswald near the front entrance, Truly and Baker make their way to the NW corner of the TSBD. They press the button for the west elevator and it comes down. They take it up to the seventh floor in order to gain access to the roof to check it.
 
The strangers on the sixth floor use the east elevator to escape (the east elevator cannot be summoned from another floor, even if the gates are down). They leave the poorly-guarded building.

Since I raised the possibility of bad guys on the sixth floor escaping via the East Elevator, I want to follow-up here and lay out some thoughts that I originally got from Lee Farley a few years ago, thoughts I filed away for later.

As we know, the East Elevator cannot be summoned from another floor; you must be in it personally, with gates down, to move it to another floor. The implications of this are potentially enormous. What if the bad guys, after doing whatever the hell they did up on the sixth floor (firing a rifle), came down on the pre-staged East Elevator (EE) to the second floor?





Notice the isolated space as you exit the EE. There's a door leading to the 2nd floor lunchroom. There's a door leading to some undefined small room. And there's double doors leading to a conference room. I'm going to have to look it up, but I recall one of the clerical women testifying that she locked the doors leading to the conference room (I think this is one of the things that Lee Farley found curious).

What if the escape plan that included the EE also included coming down to the 2nd floor, strategically locking/controlling the access doors to the space where you exit the EE, then moving to the conference room (or the small, undefined room) only to wait/regroup to take the next steps to exit from the porous building while it was still unguarded?

If I were to map out all of the relevant facts/testimony to build a timeline to test this and other credible theories, who should be included? Take a list of witnesses, map out what they said in a timeline, factor in other pertinent observations, etc., and see what what we come up with. Point me in the right direction and I'll do it and share the results as I go.
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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

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