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wilfred baetz

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wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 7:48 am

greg parker wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:
Was Lane complicit in setting Waldo up with those two so they could get this into the papers? It clouded the whole issue of Piper, the black man seen running off after the assassination, and the black man seen by Rowland.


Greg,

Not sure if you were already aware of this, but the black man seen running off after the assassination was "Wilfied Daetz"

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/33389/rec/59

Thanks Hasan, no I wasn't aware anyone had "outed" themselves. The incident had been discussed at the forum without anyone seeming to know about Wilfred. Well found! It's just as beneficial to rule things out as well as in...

 Hmmm,

nothing is ever that clear cut in this case.

The guys name was Wilfred Henry Baetz and he was not black. In fact, he may not have even been in DP...

See Lee Forman's post #4  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7969&st

There may also be at least one document not released yet about this person.
http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=3&topic_id=7965

_________________
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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 8:32 am

Interesting stuff, Greg. Other witnesses such as HB McLain and Jack Dougherty claimed they heard a single shot, and what he allegedly heard with his right ear would have been an echo. Plenty of other witnesses who saw the puff of smoke. I will need to read more about this guy when I find the time. I have something on Bernard Weissman to post tomorrow.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 10:27 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Interesting stuff, Greg. Other witnesses such as HB McLain and Jack Dougherty claimed they heard a single shot, and what he allegedly heard with his right ear would have been an echo. Plenty of other witnesses who saw the puff of smoke. I will need to read more about this guy when I find the time. I have something on Bernard Weissman to post tomorrow.

 From the statement of SA Paul Landis
The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=77223

From Rowland's testimony...
Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.


I know we're talking about green slacks vs green shirt...but that's possibly due to confused memory... I also know the description seems to describe someone running TOWARD the TSBD - not away from it... but maybe "running from my left to right..." should have just read "running from left to right..."

This is from the Lane/Waldo/Howard Bros doc linked to in the Lane thread...
"Waldo stated that the source said 'when I saw this boy he was the scaredest nigger I ever saw. All you could see were the whites of his eyes.' Waldo stated that according to his source, the witness stated when he fled the Texas School Book Depository, he surrendered to the Special Service because that branch of the Police Department had picked him up on crap shooting charges in the past. 

According to Waldo, the source stated that the witness made the statement 'man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run', referring to his exit from the TSBD."
The person Landis saw was "bent over" while running - possibly indicating someone no longer all that youthful trying to run faster than they have in a while - possibly also trying to make himself as small a target as possible from a sniper.

Piper admitted to heading toward the loading dock door after the shots, but did not admit leaving.  He claims he stayed near the coffee making area and saw Truly enter with a cop -- trouble is - no one remembered seeing him there...

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:01 pm

<i>"[H]e surrendered to the Special Service because that branch of the Police Department had picked him up on crap shooting charges in the past.
According to Waldo, the source stated that the witness made the statement 'man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run', referring to his exit from the TSBD."</i>

This is apparently a reference to Charles Givens.

"What exactly did Givens say to the police? A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman."
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:12 pm



 

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:54 pm

beowolf wrote:<i>"[H]e surrendered to the Special Service because that branch of the Police Department had picked him up on crap shooting charges in the past.
According to Waldo, the source stated that the witness made the statement 'man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run', referring to his exit from the TSBD."</i>

This is apparently a reference to Charles Givens.

"What exactly did Givens say to the police? A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman."
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony



I don't even know where to start in trying to untangle the mess Thomas made of this...

Let's start with here - Howard was not a witness to the questioning of Givens. Refer to http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11465&relPageId=2

I'll try and do this in chronological order - but due to time restraints, I'm flying from memory...

First thing... Curry or Wade said during a press conference that a black janitor had escorted Oswald to the 6th floor around lunchtime.
Piper admitted he had a conversation with Oswald about lunch and that Oswald said he was going up for lunch.

Arnold Rowland sees an elderly black man on the 6th floor - his description matches Piper to a "T".

Piper claimed to have watch the motorcade from the 1st floor - an impossibility as you could not see out of those windows. Additionally, no one recalled seeing him down there.

Then the Waldo flap.

Then after 5 interviews - Givens finally recalls returning to the 6th floor for his cigarettes and seeing Oswald up there. Yeah. Really? 

Piper - for reasons not disclosed by the commission lawyers, was asked repeatedly by the WC if he was up on the 6th floor that day.

Givens rap sheet was for drugs - not craps. Whilst it is unknown if Piper had any sort of rap sheet at all, it can't be ruled out either.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 8:08 pm

If the statements by both James Lacy and Edward Shields are true; then Givens could not possibly have been the Black man running away from the TSBD following the assassination. I don't think Piper was the man seen by Landis and in the Muchmore film running up the steps towards the parking lot. Looks nothing like him, IMO.

FWIW: I think this is how they got Givens to say that he had gone back up to the 6th floor to allegedly get his cigarettes, and had seen Oswald there.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/charles-douglas-givens-vs-lee-harvey.html

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 11:20 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:If the statements by both James Lacy and Edward Shields are true; then Givens could not possibly have been the Black man running away from the TSBD following the assassination. I don't think Piper was the man seen by Landis and in the Muchmore film running up the steps towards the parking lot. Looks nothing like him, IMO.

FWIW: I think this is how they got Givens to say that he had gone back up to the 6th floor to allegedly get his cigarettes, and had seen Oswald there.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/charles-douglas-givens-vs-lee-harvey.html

You may be right, Hasan.

The way I see it, investigators had a lot of problems to deal with -- but to focus here on just two:

The elderly black man seen by Rowland and the black man of the Howard to Waldo story.

I believe the two were actually one - Eddie Piper.

But it was dealt with as two separate issues because of the chicken bones.

Givens was suborned to be the 6th floor Oswald witness - but as you say, they could not have him as a witness to Oswald firing shots because it would bring too many questions to the table. It would suffice just have him place Oswald up there.

Rowland's "elderly Negro" and the chicken bones were disposed of in one go -- by having Williams up there as the chicken lunch man.

As with Givens however, Williams took a long while to "remember" he went up to the 6th floor to eat. Prior to that, he had claimed he went from the 1st floor to the 5th with his two comrades. No mention of any trip back to the 6th whatsoever.

------------------

Some may be wondering by now if Piper was on the 6th floor and witnessed Oswald shoot, why would the authorities not have put him to the forefront as their best witness?

The answer to that is simple - he was a witness to what happened on the 6th - it just wasn't Oswald he witnessed. I believe it was the person Baker and Truly encountered on the 4th floor - Mr. 30yo, 165 lbs, dark hair and tan jacket. I further believe Truly rushed in with Baker - not because he wanted to be a hero - but to ensure Baker didn't shoot or arrest the real perp - hence "he's okay - he works here".

Recall that a janitor supposedly escorted "Oswald" up to the 6th floor. Why would anyone need to escort him up there? He worked there! Uh uh. The only person who would need an escort would be an outsider. Perhaps someone flashing USSS credentials?

Piper said in his initial affidavit that after the sound of the first shot, he rushed up to the coffee area to see what time it was on the wall clock. That in itself is bizarre enough. Who has the presence of mind to want to make a mental note of the time they hear a shot fired - possibly at the president? You might instinctively look if your wore a watch... but to make the decision to go to a clock to see the time...? But what's even more bizarre is that he claimed the time was 12:25 - which happened to be the time the president was DUE to go past - not the ACTUAL time he did go past.  Did Piper, perhaps unaware that the motorcade had been late, give the time he thought was right simply because he did not look at any clock? Then take into account that no one remembered him being were he said he was - that the only witness to him down there at all was Shelley who testified he saw Piper "coming back from where he was watching the motorcade..." -- which really means he only saw him head toward the coffee making area right next to the loading dock. Since no one saw him AT the coffee machine, it stands to reason he most likely did not stop there as he claimed -- but hightailed it out through that loading dock. And Shelley's "coming back" could mean coming back from a first floor window, Easter Island, Graceland... or the 6th floor.....

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 4:42 am

Thanks for breaking that down Greg, that is certainly a tangled knot.  Over  lunch I googled Special Services.  Jack Revill (who ran intelligence) explained to HSCA
"Special Services Bureau... consisted of vice, narcotics, and intelligence, each unit commanded by a lieutenant of police. "
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk4/hscarevl.htm

On the one hand, it could be Howard was disguising witness identity (there being so few possible suspects) by saying he had a gambling record when he really had a drug record (Givens), either way it was a Special Services crime.   Or if Howard was honest on that point, Piper (or, possibly one of the guys on the 5th floor?) could indeed have gambling charges on his records. Of course, if someone is working for the police as a confidential informant, very often payment for their services involves making charges disappear so that'd be hard to document.
What would be amusing (though, alas, contrary to evidence) was if the guy with the gambling charge who ran Forrest Gump-like from TSBD to Special Services was Lee Oswald. Surprised)

Looking at Dallas archives, is there anything significant that Piper was interviewed by Special Services Bureau officer (Lt. Revill)  or was this simply because Homicide detectives was calling on the entire Dept to lend a hand with witness interviews?


Last edited by beowulf on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 7:28 am

Greg, I am in complete agreement with you that Piper was the man Arnold Rowland saw. As for Williams, he allegedly claimed he went to the sixth floor to eat his lunch in his interview with the FBI on 23/11/63. Nothing in his first day affidavit about it.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 10:51 am

Hasan, Piper certainly seems to fit Rowland's description (sidenote, has anyone tried to interview Rowland in recent years?)

Do you think Piper stuck around and witnessed the shooting after (presumably) escorting upstairs men with police or Secret Service credentials or after showing them 6th floor, headed to another floor?

If he stayed, that would be an awkward moment, to suddenly realize the police marksmen you helped get in position were not actually police marksmen. I'd wager they had Secret Service credentials (badge and ID card) because it'd be too easy for a local cop to spot fake ones.  Secret Service protective details are a novelty for local police and they always defer to Secret Service authority during a presidential visit. DPD Sgt. Harkness didn't think twice about coming across armed Secret Service agents behind TSBD minutes after shooting, nor would any cop who didn't know the real SS agents were all with the motorcade.

What's more, the Secret Service certainly responded like it had a counterfeit credential (or "commission book" as agents call it) problem. Former SS Agent Abraham Bolden said all commission books were recalled service-wide and replaced in January 1964.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 7:12 pm

beowulf wrote:Thanks for breaking that down Greg, that is certainly a tangled knot.  Over  lunch I googled Special Services.  Jack Revill (who ran intelligence) explained to HSCA
"Special Services Bureau... consisted of vice, narcotics, and intelligence, each unit commanded by a lieutenant of police. "
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk4/hscarevl.htm

On the one hand, it could be Howard was disguising witness identity (there being so few possible suspects) by saying he had a gambling record when he really had a drug record (Givens), either way it was a Special Services crime.   Or if Howard was honest on that point, Piper (or, possibly one of the guys on the 5th floor?) could indeed have gambling charges on his records. Of course, if someone is working for the police as a confidential informant, very often payment for their services involves making charges disappear so that'd be hard to document.
What would be amusing (though, alas, contrary to evidence) was if the guy with the gambling charge who ran Forrest Gump-like from TSBD to Special Services was Lee Oswald. Surprised)

Looking at Dallas archives, is there anything significant that Piper was interviewed by Special Services Bureau officer (Lt. Revill)  or was this simply because Homicide detectives was calling on the entire Dept to lend a hand with witness interviews?

This should answer your question...

Piper's next entries into the annals of the case were as one of the subjects of a Secret Service Report consisting of interview results of employees of the shipping and order filling department of the TSBD dated December 7, 1963 followed by a Dallas Police Intelligence Report dated February 17, 1964 regarding his knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John F Kennedy.[5] Only a small percentage of witnesses were lucky enough to be the subject of a PI report. They were not done just for the heck of it. The date of the report makes it highly likely that Piper was called in as a result of a February 10 Star Telegram story by Thayer Waldo. Waldo had been told by Mike Howard of the Secret Service and his brother Pat, a Tarrant County Deputy Sheriff that a Negro witness, who had been looking out of a 6th floor window, witnessed Oswald firing at the president. In some reports, this witness is referred to as a janitor - and Piper was the only janitor. [6] There are certain elements of the story which seem fabricated, miss told, miss heard or blended from other stories. However, the basics of it fit with the news story concerning the escorting of Oswald to the 6th floor. 
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor?highlight=Piper

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Sat 20 Jul 2013, 10:41 pm

beowulf wrote:Hasan, Piper certainly seems to fit Rowland's description (sidenote, has anyone tried to interview Rowland in recent years?)

I have sent him a few emails, but he has never responded. Can hardly blame him. Few witnesses were treated more shabbily than he was.

Do you think Piper stuck around and witnessed the shooting after (presumably) escorting upstairs men with police or Secret Service credentials or after showing them 6th floor, headed to another floor?

If he stayed, that would be an awkward moment, to suddenly realize the police marksmen you helped get in position were not actually police marksmen. I'd wager they had Secret Service credentials (badge and ID card) because it'd be too easy for a local cop to spot fake ones.  Secret Service protective details are a novelty for local police and they always defer to Secret Service authority during a presidential visit. DPD Sgt. Harkness didn't think twice about coming across armed Secret Service agents behind TSBD minutes after shooting, nor would any cop who didn't know the real SS agents were all with the motorcade.

I think he may have been invited to stay and maybe watch the motorcade from up there through the window. It would help keep him quiet, while also adding an African-American to the suspect list.

What's more, the Secret Service certainly responded like it had a counterfeit credential (or "commission book" as agents call it) problem. Former SS Agent Abraham Bolden said all commission books were recalled service-wide and replaced in January 1964.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 21 Jul 2013, 5:25 am

Hasan, Piper certainly seems to fit Rowland's description (sidenote, has anyone tried to interview Rowland in recent years?)

Do you think Piper stuck around and witnessed the shooting after (presumably) escorting upstairs men with police or Secret Service credentials or after showing them 6th floor, headed to another floor?

I agree with what Greg says about Rowland, Beowulf. But I would like to add that as someone who observed the shooter 15 minutes before the assassination, and didn't report it to the Police, I think he has lived the rest of his life from that day on in guilt and shame for not speaking up. Hence the reason why he is reluctant to speak to any researchers about it.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Sun 21 Jul 2013, 10:33 am

Glad you tried reaching out to him Greg. Rowland was treated pretty shabbily by the Warren Commission but I hope he doesn't feel guilty about what happened.  Most people would assume it was a police countersniper team (interesting story from 2009 about Secret Service countersnipers).
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/19/sniper.training/

Of course that leads to the question: Deputy Harry Weatherford, failed countersniper, successful sniper or just standing along Main Street minding his own business?

Edit:  Belay that, I forgot one possibility. Perhaps Weatherford was a SUCCESSFUL countersniper.

"Some of you may remember that shortly after the assassination of Kennedy it was reported on the radio that a Secret Service man had been killed. Then nothing more was heard of that story. In Dallas it was rumored, however, that the body of a Secret Service man had been found in the Texas Book Depository hidden behind book cartons near the place where Oswald had hidden his rifle. It further reported that responsible persons had seen the body carried from the Depository, and that it was taken to the Parkland Hospital, where the Secret Service man was pronounced dead on arrival. That story did not appear in the press, and has been printed, so far as I know, only in a newsletter whose general accuracy I cannot definitely evaluate.

The story is widely known and believed in Dallas, but I have not been able to obtain conclusive confirmation. The nearest that I could come to that was to locate a very responsible citizen who says that he was told by a member of the staff at the Book Depository that that man had seen with his own eyes the body of a Secret Service agent as it was removed from the building. This man further reports, however, that two days later his informant came to him in a state of great perturbation, asked him to say nothing about the story, and said that if he were questioned, he would deny having said anything of the sort. The man was obviously frightened, and returned on three subsequent occasions to insist that his name be kept out of the affair.


http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=22526&sub_topic_id=22528&mesg_id=&page=5

Everyone assumes the story is fake because there is no unaccounted Secret Service agent and no explanation of how said agent was shot... but if there were fake Secret Service agents seen behind TSBD and if Weatherford was on the jail roof with a rifle-- as Sgt (& future Sheriff) Jim Bowles stated-- well that is a can of worms of a different color.  Surprised)

I'd also note that Jime Gatewood's book asserts Weatherford did take a shot at TSBD sniper (Oswald, per Gatewood) and but I haven't read it so can't say what kind of evidence he has to back it up.
http://www.dcarb.com/dallas-history/jfk-assassination.htm

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Sun 21 Jul 2013, 4:56 pm

beowulf wrote:Everyone assumes the story is fake because there is no unaccounted Secret Service agent and no explanation of how said agent was shot... but if there were fake Secret Service agents seen behind TSBD and if Weatherford was on the jail roof with a rifle-- as Sgt (& future Sheriff) Jim Bowles stated-- well that is a can of worms of a different color.  )
I like this from (apart from the Tippit bit) Robyn Unger in the Lancer thread:

Hyperthetical. 

Lets say oswald was to be set up to take the fall for shooting kennedy.

Lets also say that at the time he was not aware this was about take place


A profesional sniper " Secret service agent " was sent in to acomplish the job from the 6th floor window.

Once the job is accomplished the sniper is eliminated, his shooting and the shooting of kennedy would be blamed on Oswald as he is set up as the patsy.

Something then goes terribly wrong, oswald takes flight, and in the process gets involved in tippits killing.
It's very similar to the plot of "The Package" which fellow member Robert Charles-Dunne once highly recommended to me, and have since managed to watch. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098051/

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 5:54 am

I don't know where Weatherford was at time of shooting (though he did aver he was on 6th floor when Boone found rifle) but I'm skeptical a deputy could return fire and that fact not come out immediately. What's more, in 50 years the rumors of a  SS agent's body removed from TSBD haven't been backed up by any witnesses or documentary evidence.  Moving a corpse in broad daylight without causing a scene is not easy.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Guest on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 8:21 am

Harry  Weatherford filed a supplementary report on November 23 that stated he was up on the 6th floor shortly after the shells were discovered : "I went over to where <Mooney> was and saw three expended shells... and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons"

I don't think it was possible for him to be up on the jailhouse roof & get down & be involved in the 6th floor search so early. I think Penn Jones started this story of him being up on the jailhouse roof. And it was a big mistake he made.

But I have credence in the dead SS agent story. My belief is that it ties in with the 8-10 inch pool of blood discovered by Malcolm Couch and WFAA's A.J. L'Hoeste minutes after the assassination, on the sidewalk at the far corner of the West Annex of the Depository. I think someone got knifed there. With a Chevy Impala idling behind the pergola during the shooting, it's quite conceivable this knifing victim got tossed into it once it drove off. 

The best possibility I've encountered for the dead SS agent is Chuck Robertson, who worked undercover for the Dallas-Ft. Worth postal system as an inspector I think. He had a wife named Inez who received survivor's benefits checks after the assassination. And there was a story that Chuck Robertson received a call just after noon on the 22nd saying the plot was on, and he rushed out of his office to try to intercept the motorcade up at Harwood Street and shouted "Stop!! Stop!! I must tell you" at JFK's limousine, but he was promptly hustled away by JFK's SS agents. Source on that I'm pretty sure is Gary Shaw. And so perhaps Chuck Robertson ran the mile down to the Depository, and there was a confrontation near the carport, and one of the escaping assassins knifed him in the heart.

It wouldn't surprise me if Loran Hall was  the driver of that Chevy Impala.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:24 am

beowulf wrote:I don't know where Weatherford was at time of shooting (though he did aver he was on 6th floor when Boone found rifle) but I'm skeptical a deputy could return fire and that fact not come out immediately. What's more, in 50 years the rumors of a  SS agent's body removed from TSBD haven't been backed up by any witnesses or documentary evidence.  Moving a corpse in broad daylight without causing a scene is not easy.

Bonnie Ray Williams on why he went up to the 6th floor:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.


Trouble is, no one backed him up on that. Moreover, I don't believe he did go back up there, as he belatedly claimed.

But here's the rub. What if Oswald (and only Oswald) was told of this very "plan" and was asked to go up to the 6th and watch with everyone else? Maybe the idea was for Oswald to be up there and be shot by the fake agent, who in turn had gotten Piper to take him up and then invited him to hang around?

Piper would then be suborned to testify that he witnessed Oswald shoot the president and then shoot himself.... or else be implicated as an accessory...

Oswald ruined the plan by not being up there and then leaving safely. 

Something caused the need for changes in the stories of Baker, Williams and Givens - and unless someone can point out any flaws - I think this scenario covers all of them.


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:26 am

 Penn Jones started this story of him being up on the jailhouse roof. And it was a big mistake he made.


Richard, if I had to give an award to the worst of the early critics, I'd hand it to Jones (unless Lifton is considered an early critic - in that event, it's a tie!)

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:38 am

Greg, if Oswald was to be shot on the 6th floor, then what about framing him for the Tippit shooting with the wallet? Or was that a back up plan if Oswald lived? I like your idea though.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:51 am

Per Baker's story changing, it could be to discredit Kent Biffle's and Ochus Campbell's claim of seeing Oswald on the first floor near the storage room following the assassination. Any other ideas would be terrific.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:00 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Greg, if Oswald was to be shot on the 6th floor, then what about framing him for the Tippit shooting with the wallet? Or was that a back up plan if Oswald lived? I like your idea though.
The wallet could just as easily be "found" on Oswald's dead body. But there probably was some type of contingency plan in place.
Per Baker's story changing, it could be to discredit Kent Biffle's and Ochus Campbell's claim of seeing Oswald on the first floor near the storage room following the assassination. Any other ideas would be terrific. 
Baker's changed story disposed of the actual 4th floor encounter he had with another, the encounter you refer to, and the encounter Oswald had with Welcome Barnett (or some other cop) at the front entrance.

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:09 am

Speaking of the wallet Greg, I suspect it was actually found inside a pocket of the light gray jacket. I have argued on my blog that it was found near Tippit's body, but I think that it would have been much too obvious that Oswald was being framed. However, by having it in the jacket, it would look like when "Oswald" disposed of the jacket (to alter his appearance) he "accidentally" left the wallet inside of it.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 6:20 pm

"the encounter Oswald had with Welcome Barnett (or some other cop) at the front entrance."

Jarman testified (in 1977) that he was told by Lovelady that a cop stopped Oswald by the front entrance but he was vouched for by truly. Besides the 14 year time lag, the problem isn't that its hearsay (Jarman reports what Lovelady said) but that its probably double hearsay (Jarmany reports what Lovelady was told by Truly).  If Lovelady heard secondhand from Shelley what Truly said then it was triple hearsay. I think Truly told his crew (as he told Fritz) that they saw Oswald back by the stairs (near the back exit, no?) Baker could have asked  "does he work here" there, with Truly vouching.  Lovelady later hears from Truly that he vouched for Oswald as he was leaving and he assumes Oswald left by front entrance and the cop stationed there (Barnett) was the one who stopped him and (as Lovelady had seen him do w/ others) told him to stay inside.

Is the answer, testimonial if not actual, of any of the following NOT 20 feet (I'm not sure lunchroom is even big enough):
Distance from Baker at elevator to white guy looking at him _____
Distance from elevator to  Dr. Pepper machine _____
Distance from Baker on 2nd fl landing to hallway where he glimpses Oswald_____
Distance from Baker to Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom _____

Finally, in Southern states, soft drinks are generically called coke (other parts of country call it either soda or pop). Texas is funny because its split on the coke/soda/pop issue, probably because Dr. Pepper started in Waco.  So if Baker saw Oswald drinking Dr. Pepper would he tell Fritz (or whoever) that he saw him with a coke in his hand?  If Oswald needed to get change for the Dr. Pepper machine, would he tell interrogators he needs to get change for the coke machine? In either case, would someone like S.A. Hosty (from the soda part of Missouri IIRC) misunderstand them?
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jakatz2/files/spcMap.png

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Re: wilfred baetz

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