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wilfred baetz

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 8:11 pm

beowulf wrote:"the encounter Oswald had with Welcome Barnett (or some other cop) at the front entrance."

Jarman testified (in 1977) that he was told by Lovelady that a cop stopped Oswald by the front entrance but he was vouched for by truly. Besides the 14 year time lag, the problem isn't that its hearsay (Jarman reports what Lovelady said) but that its probably double hearsay (Jarmany reports what Lovelady was told by Truly).  If Lovelady heard secondhand from Shelley what Truly said then it was triple hearsay.

The thing is, neither the WC nor the FBI gave a toss whether something was hearsay or not - especially if it went against Oswald. And the WC and FBI were considerably above us on the food chain. I see no reason why we should set the bar to the heights of a court. But even if we did, are there not exceptions to the hearsay rule e.g. If Truly was deceased, or could not be found?

I simply apply the "balance of probability" test when weighing evidence. Here we have early newspaper accounts, Holmes' testimony as to what Oswald said and Jarman's HSCA interview, along with a list of employees names taken in order of when they were let go - in which Oswald's name appears at the top.

Try and chase that down as to what others believe - if there is any cite given (and often there is not) it will be citing the MIG 112th file as the source of that name and address  further citing Jones as testifying to that before the HSCA. Trouble is that Jones said no such thing. The most logical answer is that Oswald supplied it himself. 


I think Truly told his crew (as he told Fritz) that they saw Oswald back by the stairs (near the back exit, no?) Baker could have asked  "does he work here" there, with Truly vouching.

He could have -- but why would he? He was absolutely convinced the sniper was up top somewhere - no way Oswald gets down that quick, so why waste a second asking questions about him? 

Lovelady later hears from Truly that he vouched for Oswald as he was leaving and he assumes Oswald left by front entrance and the cop stationed there (Barnett) was the one who stopped him and (as Lovelady had seen him do w/others) told him to stay inside.

Except Truly supposedly asked one and all if they had seen the Mr O. Sorry, I just can't buy it in the face of available evidence. 

Is the answer, testimonial if not actual, of any of the following NOT 20 feet (I'm not sure lunchroom is even big enough):
Distance from Baker at elevator to white guy looking at him _____
Distance from elevator to  Dr. Pepper machine _____
Distance from Baker on 2nd fl landing to hallway where he glimpses Oswald_____
Distance from Baker to Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom _____

It may be in a commission document somewhere.

Finally, in Southern states, soft drinks are generically called coke (other parts of country call it either soda or pop). Texas is funny because its split on the coke/soda/pop issue, probably because Dr. Pepper started in Waco.  So if Baker saw Oswald drinking Dr. Pepper would he tell Fritz (or whoever) that he saw him with a coke in his hand?  If Oswald needed to get change for the Dr. Pepper machine, would he tell interrogators he needs to get change for the coke machine? In either case, would someone like S.A. Hosty (from the soda part of Missouri IIRC) misunderstand them?
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jakatz2/files/spcMap.png

Here's Frazier mentioning Oswald getting a drink. He refers specifically to Dr Pepper - not in any generic term.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch. 

Although I can't find it right now, I am certain someone else testified that he would sometimes go upstairs to get a coke. Mrs Reid also testified he was drinking a coke (and here, "coke" should be assumed to be exactly that because why would he buy a Peppers and wander up to the second floor with it?



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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 8:12 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Speaking of the wallet Greg, I suspect it was actually found inside a pocket of the light gray jacket. I have argued on my blog that it was found near Tippit's body, but I think that it would have been much too obvious that Oswald was being framed. However, by having it in the jacket, it would look like when "Oswald" disposed of the jacket (to alter his appearance) he "accidentally" left the wallet inside of it.

 I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the head's up!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Guest on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 8:22 pm

There's a high degree of certainty that Oswald left by the front entrance, shortly after directing WFAA's Pierce Allman to a telephone inside the Depository (WCH VII p. 302 & WR p. 629). The thread on page 6 of the JFK section on this website, "William Shelley: Betrayal and Perjury" explores Oswald's whereabouts and exit in detail. And on page 5, the thread "Who is This Man" examines film evidence from the Martin and Hughes films that most probably shows James Jarman when he was on the Depository steps.

Still waiting patiently for Robert Groden's "Absolute Proof", which should be out this year, which contains an interview with a secretary who claims she was in the 2nd-floor office with Oswald, giving him change for the lunchroom Coke machine, when the shots rang out.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 3:36 am

Thanks for comments guys.  I take Greg's point that Oswald had to stick around to give his name and address and Richard's that he left by the front. My point about hearsay isn't to argue a legal technicality, simply that Jarman has no way of knowing if what Lovelady tells him (or thinks he tells him) is true.  For example, Lovelady's exact words 14 years prior might have been  "the boss vouched for him, told the cop Oswald worked here" and Jarman took that to mean TSBD superintendent (Truly) when actually Lovelady meant their direct supervisor (Shelley). Its on that issue hearsay is a problem.

My point with "20 feet" is that from Warren Commission (first floor diagram and Baker testimony), that seems to be Baker's approx distance for everything.  If he did see Oswald from 20 feet away, by the coke machine (serving Dr. Pepper) on the 1st floor is the likeliest place.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 7:24 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:There's a high degree of certainty that Oswald left by the front entrance, shortly after directing WFAA's Pierce Allman to a telephone inside the Depository (WCH VII p. 302 & WR p. 629). The thread on page 6 of the JFK section on this website, "William Shelley: Betrayal and Perjury" explores Oswald's whereabouts and exit in detail. And on page 5, the thread "Who is This Man" examines film evidence from the Martin and Hughes films that most probably shows James Jarman when he was on the Depository steps.

Still waiting patiently for Robert Groden's "Absolute Proof", which should be out this year, which contains an interview with a secretary who claims she was in the 2nd-floor office with Oswald, giving him change for the lunchroom Coke machine, when the shots rang out.

Richard,

you're not the only one waiting. Sean Murphy has mentioned this a number of times. I hope neither of you are disappointed by what is produced.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by beowulf on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 7:45 am

"you're not the only one waiting. Sean Murphy has mentioned this a number of times. I hope neither of you are disappointed by what is produced."

I get the need to respect a witness's desire to keep an interview secret while they're alive. What's inexplicable that Geneva Hine died in 2002 . Who sits on a scoop like that for 11 years and why? 

As I've mentioned before, its almost like Groden's 2009 comments (with some fake clues thrown in to keep speculation off-target) were about someone else who was actually still alive but already had, in Groden's opinion, one foot in the grave and one foot on a banana peel.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 7:49 am

beowulf wrote:Thanks for comments guys.  I take Greg's point that Oswald had to stick around to give his name and address and Richard's that he left by the front. My point about hearsay isn't to argue a legal technicality, simply that Jarman has no way of knowing if what Lovelady tells him (or thinks he tells him) is true.  For example, Lovelady's exact words 14 years prior might have been  "the boss vouched for him, told the cop Oswald worked here" and Jarman took that to mean TSBD superintendent (Truly) when actually Lovelady meant their direct supervisor (Shelley). Its on that issue hearsay is a problem.

My point with "20 feet" is that from Warren Commission (first floor diagram and Baker testimony), that seems to be Baker's approx distance for everything.  If he did see Oswald from 20 feet away, by the coke machine (serving Dr. Pepper) on the 1st floor is the likeliest place.

Thanks for the clarification. That possibility, I suppose, exists - yet the straight reading of it matches Oswald's statements as taken by Holmes and at least some early newspaper reports. The official story has Oswald leaving before Barnett arrives. In that case, Oswald needed to have correctly guessed that a cop would be stationed at the entrance - not exactly a feat of genuine psychic proportions, admittedly, but  he would also need to correctly guess that they would hold everyone up from leaving until they organized to obtain personal details - which adds at least some degree of difficulty to any guesswork or psychic prediction.  Recall that he had already apparently correctly guessed the re-entry of Jarman and Norman. The fact that some reports claim Oswald said he ate lunch with them, when he didn't, has been used to try and destroy the value of having seen them at all. The fact is anyway, other reports do just note that he saw them coming back in...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Guest on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:48 am

If you read through my work on Pierce Allman's post-shooting movements, which was done a couple of years ago at JFK Lancer (use search engine for "Allman timeline"), you'll see that I sliced and diced his arrival on the Depository front steps to very near 12:33:00, which agrees with the Warren Commission estimate that Oswald left the building at 12:33.

But some very important film work by Gerda Dunckel forces a re-evaluation of Shelley & Lovelady's claimed movements. She discovered that they left their motorcade viewing spot on top of the front steps before Marrion Baker even arrived. The inescapable conclusion is that they returned to the front steps circa 12:33,  having gone into the railyard and re-entering via the ramp beside the carport. And factoring in Oswald's claim in the Bookhout report that he hung around for "5 or 10 minutes" (i.e. for a bit of time) with Bill Shelley before getting the OK to leave, Oswald's departure time categorically has to be edited to 12:34. A world of difference. Because Lovelady was copilot  (traveling companion) with Shelley and witnessed the Shelley-Oswald exchange. He was right there on the steps with them. And Barnett, with his own timeline for arrival on the front steps, categorically has to be the cop Oswald interacted with.

Not only that, but if one ponders the whys of why did Shelley deny this incident, why wouldn't he have told the DPD that Oswald simply took a left and headed up the street (which would corroborate the later story of the Marsalis bus), it was because Oswald actually took a right when descending the Depository steps. And Shelley noticed this.
 
Might not Oswald have found an unobstrusive spot behind the pergola to chill out from circa 12:35- 12:40, before a white Rambler pulled up to the Elm Street curb to give him a lift? And I've heard from a reputable researcher that this dash toward the Rambler was captured on film by a CBS photographer (maybe Tom Craven?), only to be locked away in their vaults in New Jersey.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 10:46 am

Thanks for the reminder about that work, Richard!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 5:28 am

The following is from Luke Mooney’s testimony before the Warren Commission, after he explains that he had run towards the Grassy knoll with Ralph Walters:
 
“And, of course, we didn’t see anything there. Of course the Officers had checked into the car there, and didn’t find anything, I don’t believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn’t Officers.”
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=16491
 
Could the “Negro porter” be the man seen running towards the parking lot following the assassination, who was allegedly Wilfied Daetz? If not, then who was it?


Last edited by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 09 Sep 2013, 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by greg parker on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:41 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:The following is from Luke Mooney’s testimony before the Warren Commission, after he explains that he had run towards the Grassy knoll with Ralph Waters:
 
“And, of course, we didn’t see anything there. Of course the Officers had checked into the car there, and didn’t find anything, I don’t believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn’t Officers.”
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=16491
 
Could the “Negro porter” be the man seen running towards the parking lot following the assassination, who was allegedly Wilfied Daetz? If not, then who was it?

 I could be wrong, Hasan, but my reading of it is that Mooney's talking about the railway yard, and the "car" mentioned would be a rail box-car - a reasonable place to find a (uniformed) Black porter in '63.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:45 am

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Greg. You could be right.

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Re: wilfred baetz

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 09 Sep 2013, 6:38 pm

The following is from the WC testimony of Eugene Boone, concerning what he found in the railroad yards:

Mr. BALL

Any railroad employees around there?

Mr. BOONE

There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there.

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Re: wilfred baetz

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