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JFK Throat Wound

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JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Tue 23 Jul 2013, 11:57 pm

I have been studying the JKF murder for quite some years now on the “sidelines”. I like to get the story from all angles and draw my own conclusions. One question that I am struggling with concerns JFK’s throat wound. I have asked this question to numerous other prominent JFK assassination researchers and have received a multitude of varying answers so I am interested in your point of view.


If the throat wound was one of entry, then where is the exit wound and the bullet?


My thoughts are if someone was shot with supersonic or subsonic projectile through the soft fleshy part of the throat as pictured in the autopsy photographs, then there should be an exit wound at the rear of his neck depending on the angle of the shot. If there was any angle then the bullet would exit at some part of his neck. If the angle was slightly downward then the bullet would have entered the back seat of the presidential limousine. Was there any investigation of this to see if there was any remnants of a projectile in the seat? The only other possibility is a subsonic bullet entering the throat from directly in front of JFK, hitting his spinal column and deflecting downward into his body. If that would have happened then the autopsy x-rays should have detected this projectile; of course unless it was covered up.


I would really like to hear everyone's opinion on this if you please.


Thanks,


John

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 6:56 pm

I would really like to hear everyone's opinion on this if you please.

Hi John,

You'll find lots of good information on the throat wound on Pat Speer's website. Here's my own take on the wound, which is based mostly on Pat Speer's work anyway.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/the-throat-shot-from-front.html

Hasan.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 8:02 pm

My take on the throat wound is that it was a hardened nylon flechette. It was hollowed out and contained a potent neurotoxin, that acted near-instantaneously. JFK was essentially paralyzed, unable to duck down, for about 5 seconds- an easier target for the 2 head shots. But the throat shot alone probably would have killed him. 

The neck X-ray shows a hairline vertical fracture of JFK's right transverse process, a lateral projection of bone extending like a mini-rib from the upper spinal column. The fracture is about 1.5 centimeters from the midline of the throat. A clear copy of the X-ray shows a pinpoint opacity (opaque spot) immediately to the left (i.e. JFK's right) of this transverse process, as well as some dustlike dots a centimeter further to the left. The Clark panel in 1968 interpreted these as "several small metallic fragments" but the HSCA concluded instead that, while denser than bone, they were not metallic. The HSCA concluded they were probably "screen artifacts from debris present in the cassette at the time that this film was exposed."

I'm definitely not a follower of David Lifton's body-alteration casket-switch hypothesis, but I do firmly believe this flechette was fished out of JFK's throat during the pre-autopsy procedure sometime between 7:15 and 8:00 PM at Bethesda. So the Clark panel and HSCA were trying to explain away the obvious with junk science.

I also think the flechette was fired by a world-class marksman, using probably an elephant-tranquilizer gun, aiming for the Adam's apple and spine. He was stationed behind one of the rectangular slats of the pergola, in the general direction of Zapruder's left shoulder. When JFK noticed Zapruder & his movie camera standing up on that pedestal, he turned and faced that direction and thereby received the throat shot. Book Depository building owner D.H. Byrd was an African safari enthusiast and certainly was aware of this tranquilizer gun.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:08 pm

Nylon Flechette? Wow. Never heard that one before. Man that is waaaayyy out there. I am a conspiracy guy but that one is a bit to much to swallow.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:37 pm

Buskeen,

I don't know about any flechette, either - the whole ballistics thing is of little interest to me. 

It does sound far-fetched, but you have to ignore the limb you might be climbing out on and concentrate on what the evidence says to you. 

It's not reasonable (imo) to dismiss this without considering the case that that Richard makes. Does it have any merit at all?

If not, why not? Tell us why it is too far out based on your own take on the available evidence.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Martin Hay on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:48 pm

John,

Personally, I've never believed the throat wound was one of entrance - partly because of the issues you raise about the lack of an exit or missile in the body. According to Dr. Carrico, he and Dr. Perry had discussed the wound on the evening of November 22, 1963, and speculated that it might have been an entrance wound or a tangential strike from a fragment.

The fact of the matter is that because the wound was obscured by the tracheostomy, and because it was not dissected at autopsy, it has never been established just what did create it. As disappointing as it is is to a large majority of conspiracy theorists who want to believe it was definitely an entrance wound, that is the reality we are faced with.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 12:25 am

Hi John

Like Greg I have very little interest in the medical evidence.  The flechette idea does have some evidence supporting it although I really do not have an opinion on it.  Cliff Varnell is one of the most vocal supporters of this theory and he has many posts where he outlines his views over at the JFK Debate section of the Education Forum if you wish to read more.

I myself did try to dabble in the ballistics and medical evidence many years ago but soon realised that barbed wire up the bum hole would probably be a more enjoyable past time.

It is, IMO, the most contentious area of the whole case and has created more arguments and heated debate than any other subject over the last fifty years but I do understand why some people are heavily attracted to it.  However, there are so many different theories attached to it that you require a degree in 200 subjects to make sense of it all.  study Even then there are so many questions about the legitimacy of the evidence and the witness testimony that IMO its difficult to make it all fit.

Regards

Lee

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by beowulf on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 1:46 am

"My take on the throat wound is that it was a hardened nylon flechette. It was hollowed out and contained a potent neurotoxin, that acted near-instantaneously. JFK was essentially paralyzed, unable to duck down, for about 5 seconds- an easier target for the 2 head shots."

He's not Rasputin, there was no need for the overkill. If you're going to pop a moving target with a dart gun (not a bad idea, no flash or bang to give away shooter), why go for the assist? Just dose it with a lethal drug. You could have Plan B or Plan C shooters lined up, but once they see from Kennedy's reaction the dart struck home, they can pack up and get a beer...
On second thought, if the conspiracy bosses,who are NOT the same as the coverup bosses, recruited patsies to pull this off, they may have been worried about accuracy. The dart would be a good failsafe in case every rifle shot missed.

A bit off topic (it focuses on head shot) but journalist/gun nut Stephen Hunter's Dealey Plaza novel The Third Bullet is pretty interesting.
"The best way to understand the causes of Kennedy’s death, he suggests, is to reason backwards from the incontrovertible ballistic evidence to the guns that caused it.... [The protagonist] Swagger figures out that a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet can be loaded into the cartridge of .264 Winchester Magnum round, which could then be loaded into the more powerful and accurate .264 Winchester Magnum rifle. (In an afterword, Hunter says he has actually pulled off this trick.)... Such a bullet fired from the Winchester rifle would travel much faster than a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet (3,000 feet per second vs. less than 2,000 feet per second) and would explode on impact, leaving only the kind of tiny fragments found inside Kennedy’s shattered skull...
http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/review/stephen-hunters-third-bullet-rethinks-the-jfk-story/

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 2:06 am

Lee David Farley wrote:I myself did try to dabble in the ballistics and medical evidence many years ago but soon realised that barbed wire up the bum hole would probably be a more enjoyable past time.

lol!

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 2:43 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote:I myself did try to dabble in the ballistics and medical evidence many years ago but soon realised that barbed wire up the bum hole would probably be a more enjoyable past time.

lol!

 Don't want anyone thinking I've ever tried that by the way.  You're one-eyed 

And also not trying to belittle anybody who is still trying to crack the medical evidence.  We all have our own interests in this case and I admire anybody who is genuinely trying to make sense of any aspect of it.  There isn't one bit of it that is as straightforward and as simple as it should be if it was just a crazed lone gunman who got up one morning and decided to assassinate the President.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 5:18 am

Don't want anyone thinking I've ever tried that by the way.   

LOL I didn't think you had, Lee.

And also not trying to belittle anybody who is still trying to crack the medical evidence.  We all have our own interests in this case and I admire anybody who is genuinely trying to make sense of any aspect of it.  There isn't one bit of it that is as straightforward and as simple as it should be if it was just a crazed lone gunman who got up one morning and decided to assassinate the President.

I know you're not trying to belittle anyone. Of course, you are correct that the evidence is utterly fucked up, but I stand by my belief that the headshot was a tangential wound from the rear.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 8:36 am

The tranq shooter is seen in the Towner film, about 45 seconds after the ambush. Credit to Charles Wallace for this discovery. He's on the far-right hand side of this frame:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=40&pos=2

and a blowup is on p. 57 of Groden's The Killing of a President. He's perched on a concrete block of some sort, looking over the stockade fence at what's going on in the knoll parking lot. That's a tranq gun, I do believe, in his left hand. Pretty brazen behavior, and suggests that he was unconcerned about being captured. High likelihood he had a spotter at the pergola.

This flechette was written about in Popular Mechanics February 1962 and were probably seen in some open crates in Guy Banister's office; a newspaper article (from 1967) stated there were 5 or 6 open crates containing "rifle grenades, land mines, and some little missiles of a kind <the source> had never seen before." (Harvey & Lee, p. 364)

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 6:42 pm

You don't need a flechette to be fired into the President's throat when you have snipers positioned in front and behind him. I think it's more than safe to say that the snipers were professionals who were more than capable of shooting the President without the need for a flechette gun to "stun" him or whatever. Besides, should the President have jumped out of the car and started running away, I think he would have exposed himself even more to the snipers.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 8:43 pm

The evidence still remains, according to the HSCA, that remnants of something denser than bone, but non-metallic, were present in JFK's neck X-ray. A hardened nylon flechette fits the bill.

The theme of the assassination was overkill & humiliate. Dulles wanted JFK dead, double dead & triple dead. On a public street, in front of his wife. If he'd have been able to devise a grappling hook that could hoist the carcass out of the limo and swing it on the triple underpass, like a cow in the slaughterhouse, he'd have done that, too.        Go for it!

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 5:25 am

I agree that Allen Dulles was in on the conspiracy at a higher level; or at the very least, had prior knowledge of the assassination. However, the buck doesn't stop with him. One other person who I can't help but think had a role in it is Curtis Lemay.
 
As for any flachettes, I disagree, but I will need to read up on that stuff from the HSCA that you mentioned.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by James DiEugenio on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 9:46 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:The evidence still remains, according to the HSCA, that remnants of something denser than bone, but non-metallic, were present in JFK's neck X-ray. A hardened nylon flechette fits the bill.

The theme of the assassination was overkill & humiliate. Dulles wanted JFK dead, double dead & triple dead. On a public street, in front of his wife. If he'd have been able to devise a grappling hook that could hoist the carcass out of the limo and swing it on the triple underpass, like a cow in the slaughterhouse, he'd have done that, too.        Go for it!

 LOL.

Except its not funny.  Its true.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Guest on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 9:20 am

Dulles was diabolical. He served several masters (Rockefeller, etc.) but must be regarded as the CEO of JFK's murder. More than simple murder, his crime was bearing false witness against an entire generation. An arrogance that hadn't been seen since the heyday of the Nazi Party. 

As to the strategy of the throat shot, my belief is that the shooter utilized the gap between the spectators near the Stemmons sign, where there is an unknown woman in a blue dress on the left, and Karen Westbrook, June Dishong, Gloria Caverly and Karen Hicks on the right:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z179.jpg

In Z-201 JFK is still waving, looking in the general direction of Zapruder:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z201.jpg

But by Z-206 he has spun his head forward:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z206.jpg

I'm convinced these days that the throat shot came from behind the pergola.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 9:39 am

Richard,

Whilst I definitely believe that Dulles was on the "board of directors" of the assassination, I don't think I am ready just yet to name him as the CEO. As for his arrogance, he was without a doubt one of the most arrogant and disgusting mother fuckers (pardon my French) to set foot on this planet. I only hope he is burning in hell.

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Re: JFK Throat Wound

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