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Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

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Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 12:15 pm

Could anyone please explain to me, like I'm a two year old, why on earth Oswald would have carried an alleged brown paper bag hiding no less a rifle, in broad daylight and in plain sight into the TSBD.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by greg parker on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 2:49 pm

Mickp wrote:Could anyone please explain to me, like I'm a two year old, why on earth Oswald would have carried an alleged brown paper bag hiding no less a rifle, in broad daylight and in plain sight into the TSBD.
Welcome to the forum, Mick.

It's tempting to be sarcastic here about how easily that got accepted - but people were more trusting back then and they had respected senior police, the FBI  and then the Blue Ribbon Warren Commission all saying he did and it was all backed up by evidence and a mostly compliant (unquestioning) media. The evidence though - like most of the evidence in the case - would never have stood up in court.

It's actually worse than it appears. The police who went to the Paine's house said the blanket the paper-wrapped rifle was stored in still held the shape of a rifle, and the officer who performed the alleged lie detector test on Buell Frazier, described the sack as looking like a  gun-case. 
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/ASSASSIONATION/DOCUMENTS/Det-Lewis-FBI-Interview-pic_7.htm

A lot of people believe he was shot to keep him quiet. Maybe. But that assumes he knew something to start with. I think it's just as likely it was to prevent a trial in which his innocence would easily be shown. Ruby went to trial and was drugged up to make him crazy and died before a retrial in another jurisdiction could be held. Sirhan and Ray were both talked into pleading guilty thereby again protecting others. Roa Sierra (another patsy) in Colombia was handed over to the mob who kicked and pounded him to a literal pulp. No trial. Just another state controlled "investigation".

If you have any particular insights into how the media has handled the JFK case, it would be fantastic to have them...

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 4:40 pm

Hi Greg, thanks for the welcome.
Thanks also for your reply, my tongue is firmly in my cheek when I pose the opening question. I am not an academic, but have worked for many years in the media, both film and TV. Obviously I have very definite opinions regarding the Z film, but that's a different story for now. I am reasonably well versed , after studying for 3 or so years on most general aspects of the case. As much as my original question might seem ridiculous on the surface, I don't believe it is. Just why would he ("Oswald") take such an item to his work place on the very day he would allegedly kill JFK. Call me, silly, even stupid, but that in itself is sufficient grounds to at least ask more than Why? As for the media's handling of the JFK case, its very intriguing. I know how they think, I know how they operate, especially commercial Networks. I know its clichéd, but this is a cold case, and it's very very old news, they've always needed a sledgehammer ie: the "Smoking Gun" the "Elephant in the room" for them to resurrect this story and I'm guessing they just never thought they saw one.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 4:42 pm

I guess that, if asked, he would have said that the bag contained just curtain rods?

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 5:12 pm

Hi Ian,
I agree, that's what he might have said if asked. My point is more to do with the WC's position. Surely a valid question. Why would the man accused of committing the "Crime of the Century" be so careless to carry the "sack of lies" with a rifle inside into the TSBD in the morning on the day he allegedly was to kill JFK. Buell Wesley Frazier, and his sister in-law were the only ones to mention the curtain rods and with that evidence "nailed" him in the eyes of the commission.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by greg parker on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 7:20 pm

Mickp wrote:Hi Greg, thanks for the welcome.
Thanks also for your reply, my tongue is firmly in my cheek when I pose the opening question. I am not an academic, but have worked for many years in the media, both film and TV. Obviously I have very definite opinions regarding the Z film, but that's a different story for now. I am reasonably well versed , after studying for 3 or so years on most general aspects of the case. As much as my original question might seem ridiculous on the surface, I don't believe it is. Just why would he ("Oswald") take such an item to his work place on the very day he would allegedly kill JFK. Call me, silly, even stupid, but that in itself is sufficient grounds to at least ask more than Why? As for the media's handling of the JFK case, its very intriguing. I know how they think, I know how they operate, especially commercial Networks. I know its clichéd, but this is a cold case, and it's very very old news, they've always needed a sledgehammer ie: the "Smoking Gun" the "Elephant in the room" for them to resurrect this story and I'm guessing they just never thought they saw one.

Your question is a valid one - but if it occurred to any in the media at the time, I haven't seen it asked in any interview transcripts. I mean, the authorities were basically saying, we got the right guy, we got all the the evidence we need, now you can all go back to sleep. Nothing more to see here. And the vast majority did just that.

The media doesn't see the elephant in the room because they have been taught not to. What they have been taught by example via CIA assets in the media, is to label any elephant, the product of an overly imaginative "buff" or "conspiracy theorist". No further examination is then required because we know that conspiracy theorists see more than just elephants... they also see little green men, big foot and Elvis. Sometimes all hanging out together in a Broken Hill Pizzeria.

We have been successfully marginalized and aligned with the tin-foil hat brigade and that lets the media off the hook when it comes to taking this case (or any new evidence presented) seriously.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 4:33 am

Mickp wrote:Could anyone please explain to me, like I'm a two year old, why on earth Oswald would have carried an alleged brown paper bag hiding no less a rifle, in broad daylight and in plain sight into the TSBD.

I suppose we could look at it this way - was/is it so unusual for someone to walk around town carrying a long package?

Doesn't really seem that unusual to me...

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by beowulf on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 6:13 am

was/is it so unusual for someone to walk around town carrying a long package?

Two days before, someone (Warren Caster) walked into the TSBD with two newly purchased rifles and showed them to Truly and Shelley.
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3255.0

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by ianlloyd on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 6:20 am

Yes, Ian Griggs interviewed him many years ago - can be read in his book No Case to Answer. All seems innocent enough...

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by greg parker on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 8:17 am

ianlloyd wrote:
Mickp wrote:Could anyone please explain to me, like I'm a two year old, why on earth Oswald would have carried an alleged brown paper bag hiding no less a rifle, in broad daylight and in plain sight into the TSBD.

I suppose we could look at it this way - was/is it so unusual for someone to walk around town carrying a long package?

Doesn't really seem that unusual to me...

It's not, Ian. But I also think that's beside the point. Here, it was additional, circumstantial evidence. I mean, officially, you have the alleged sniper going to work with - not just any old package - but one supposedly shaped like a rifle, and seemingly not giving a damn who sees him with it. If you were going to bump off the most powerful man on Earth, would you do that? Was Oswald completely stupid? He was certainly awfully lucky. No neighbours spotted him walking to the Randle house-hold with it. No one saw him enter the TSBD with it. No one saw him hide it, retrieve it or do anything else with it. And the only two witnesses to the package inexplicably failed to give it's "correct" proportions or even note it's rifle-like shape.

His luck started to dip a couple of hours later in a movie-house - and then went south faster than a roller-coaster on the Sunday when another Lone Nut got "lucky". I guess he'd used up his quota of good fortune getting that rifle to work...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 9:24 am

It's not that unusual, I'll grant that, but I tend to agree with Greg. Caster aside, and I'm playing devil's advocate here, and this is my point, we are asked to accept with every rational logical bone in our bodies, that, Oswald travelled to his work place with the sack ( one of 3 the authorities had in their possession) four feet long with a rifle inside from his rooming house, across the street to the Randle house, carry it on his lap, or place it on the back seat of the car, depending on which version of Frazier's testimony you wish to believe, drive the 15 miles or so with the package in the car to the parking lot in the Plaza near the TSBD, park 350 yards from the back door to his work place and carry that package across the car park , enter that building and hide the sack inside. My point really is not whether you might think this is not unusual, but moreover, was Oswald that stupid, that idiotic, that mentally challenged.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by James DiEugenio on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 9:58 am

Nice catch with that document Greg.

Where did they get the gunsack to show Frazier?

Why would they have it at HQ that night but Studebaker did not photograph it on the ground of the sixth floor?

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by beowulf on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 1:36 pm

"Why would they have it at HQ that night but Studebaker did not photograph it on the ground of the sixth floor?"

Because it was hidden under the fake Secret Service agent's body, of course.  [yes, I'm kidding]
 http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=22526

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 6:31 pm

Greg, This is a great forum. I've looked at the rest and they're full of hate, even from within and supposedly the same side.
Great Doc regards the sack on the Friday evening by the way. My question still stands! Nobody's been able to put Oswald on the sixth floor, with a gun in his hand and pulling the trigger at 12.30pm. NOBODY! Period! I've seen in the evidence that has been supplied by the WCR and or anyone else for that matter, and it amounts to naught, zero, zilch. So, we come full circle, and not so much as why would Oswald carry the sack with a rifle in it in broad daylight to his work place on the day of the presidents visit to down town Dallas but, why, how, and when. Clearly, from the interviews of evidence supplied to the official investigative body, No-one, not a single witness saw him carry the package that the authorities would have us believe he carried to his work place that day. The package they want us to believe he carried was not in his hands, never, ever. So, if this is so, and we know it is, simply by reviewing what the  2 witnesses had to say from that fate-full, Friday morning then clearly Oswald did not have a weapon in his hands on the 22/11/63 because he did NOT carry it to his work place.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by greg parker on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 8:07 pm

Mickp wrote:Greg, This is a great forum. I've looked at the rest and they're full of hate, even from within and supposedly the same side.

Thanks Mick. I  got lucky and a bunch of pretty cool, bright and like-minded people started posting. 

Great Doc regards the sack on the Friday evening by the way. My question still stands! Nobody's been able to put Oswald on the sixth floor, with a gun in his hand and pulling the trigger at 12.30pm. NOBODY! Period! I've seen in the evidence that has been supplied by the WCR and or anyone else for that matter, and it amounts to naught, zero, zilch. So, we come full circle, and not so much as why would Oswald carry the sack with a rifle in it in broad daylight to his work place on the day of the presidents visit to down town Dallas but, why, how, and when. Clearly, from the interviews of evidence supplied to the official investigative body, No-one, not a single witness saw him carry the package that the authorities would have us believe he carried to his work place that day. The package they want us to believe he carried was not in his hands, never, ever. So, if this is so, and we know it is, simply by reviewing what the  2 witnesses had to say from that fate-full, Friday morning then clearly Oswald did not have a weapon in his hands on the 22/11/63 because he did NOT carry it to his work place.

I think you've pretty well nailed it. The question that seems to be lingering in the background is how did they get away with such obvious shite. The answer to that probably needs a team of anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists and taxi drivers to figure out. It does kind of remind me of a study that was done in Nazi Germany to determine percentages and types of individuals who would ( a ) become Nazis themselves, ( b ) just go with the flow without actively joining or ( c ) actively resist. The study turned out to be remarkably accurate.  If you understand the psychology of the masses, you can use it to your advantage, or to manipulate opinion. And the period was one where authority was seldom questioned. It wasn't so much an investigation as a Public Relations exercise masquerading as investigation. PR is a powerful tool and a lot of the BIG lies were accepted on face value because of it.  It helped sell a too small bag, non-identifications, magic bullets, broken evidentiary paper trails and a host of other things as hard evidence of guilt. 

Later, when the critics started making inroads, the CIA called in its media assets and declared war.


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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 9:19 pm

Hey Greg, just to be sure was that the great and wise JD, who posted on this Forum?

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by greg parker on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 9:43 pm

Mickp wrote:Hey Greg, just to be sure was that the great and wise JD, who posted on this Forum?
Yeah... and he said some very nice things to some influential types about this little forum before joining. 

I've said it before... and I'll probably say it some more... I am proud of what our small but culturally and geographically diverse group has done here.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 9:53 pm

I don't know your background "mate" (you know that's a term of endearment) but The forum speaks for itself. If you've managed to get JD to post, and keep the posts civil then that's a huge thumbs up from me and it should be noted from all who visit.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:47 pm

Mickp wrote:I don't know your background "mate" (you know that's a term of endearment) but The forum speaks for itself. If you've managed to get JD to post, and keep the posts civil then that's a huge thumbs up from me and it should be noted from all who visit.

You said it, Mick.... I couldn't agree more. Let's just hope that Jim Di remains a regular poster on the forum.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 2:39 am

Irrespective of whether the “Oswald rifle” was to be used by Oswald or by a conspirator, whether or not affiliated with Oswald, it makes no sense to leave the introduction of the rifle into the crime scene until the day of the event.  Whomever introduced the weapon on that day might have been stopped, and neither Oswald nor any other conceivable shooter would have any way of knowing with certainty it was safe to bring it that day without police or Secret Service intercession.

That nobody saw Oswald carry the rifle in on 11/22/63 rather subverts the assumption that he did so.  And given where it was secreted when found, it could have been there for days or perhaps weeks prior to its eventual discovery.  The earlier it was brought into the TSBD, the less likely anyone would presume it had relevance to JFK’s impending visit.

The Warren Caster incident illustrates the point.  Even after the assassination, no suspicion fell upon Caster as a possible conspirator, despite him having a pair of rifles in the TSBD two days before the event.  Interestingly, Oswald seems to have been a witness to that event, recalling to his interrogators that he had seen Roy Truly handling at least one rifle in his own first floor office.  That one of the rifles was a Mauser likewise failed to register any suspicion toward Caster.

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Re: Why would Oswald in broad daylight carry an alleged rifle sack into TSBD

Post by Guest on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 5:09 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:Irrespective of whether the “Oswald rifle” was to be used by Oswald or by a conspirator, whether or not affiliated with Oswald, it makes no sense to leave the introduction of the rifle into the crime scene until the day of the event.  Whomever introduced the weapon on that day might have been stopped, and neither Oswald nor any other conceivable shooter would have any way of knowing with certainty it was safe to bring it that day without police or Secret Service intercession.

That nobody saw Oswald carry the rifle in on 11/22/63 rather subverts the assumption that he did so.  And given where it was secreted when found, it could have been there for days or perhaps weeks prior to its eventual discovery.  The earlier it was brought into the TSBD, the less likely anyone would presume it had relevance to JFK’s impending visit.

The Warren Caster incident illustrates the point.  Even after the assassination, no suspicion fell upon Caster as a possible conspirator, despite him having a pair of rifles in the TSBD two days before the event.  Interestingly, Oswald seems to have been a witness to that event, recalling to his interrogators that he had seen Roy Truly handling at least one rifle in his own first floor office.  That one of the rifles was a Mauser likewise failed to register any suspicion toward Caster.

 Hardly surprising that Caster wasn't hooked up to the lie detector machine after BWF had finished pissing his pants though is it, Robert?  Par for the course concerning this investigation.

A few of us have debated before on this forum possible locations that the Mannlicher Carcano could have been hidden over the days prior to the assassination.  Richard believes it was stashed away on the Seventh Floor.  I've mulled over the dust falling into Harold Norman's hair and whether the floorboards were displaced on the Sixth Floor.  It makes sense that if you're going to hide something like that, you really want to hide it well.  Where better than under the floor?

I've also discussed with Greg whether Caster handing both Roy Truly and Bill Shelley a Mauser which allowed their fingerprints to be all over it on the 20th was used in any way as leverage against them on the afternoon of the assassination especially if we bear in mind that the first continuous media reports of the rifle used was a "Mauser."  

Another coincidence? You're one-eyed 

Where the Mauser reports from some employees mentioning Caster having a Mauser in the building a few days prior and if so why wasn't his ass hauled up to City Hall and threatened with being a co conspirator the same way Molina and Frazier were?

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