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"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Wed 21 Aug 2013, 5:02 pm

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Wed 21 Aug 2013, 10:56 pm

Ian,

I recall saying the same thing when Sean discussed this with me back when. I wasn't entirely satisfied it was Oswald then - mainly because he looks too bulky (to me) -- but Sean is certainly mounting a solid case that it really is him.

If he (assuming it's LHO) is holding anything, it is surely THE coke.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 4:31 am

Hi Greg,

Yep, possible.

I do get frustated sometimes reading stuff on the EF - the latest one regarding H. D. Holmes - Sneed's seminal work (IMO), No More Silence provides a wonderful insight into Holmes and, vicariously, Fritz, should be read by all JFK researchers/passing interesters to understand how Holmes operated, particularly with his obviously great friend, Fritz - How they'd convict people "using their wits" and how he "trained" his memory and how he and Fritz wouldn't take notes, instead, relying entirely on their fantastical memory power - it's quite sickening, actually.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 8:44 am

Thanks for pointing this out, Ian. I was unaware that the Ed Forum was back in action. I read the link the entire way through. I remember discussing Prayer Man a few years ago at Lancer. Oswald was brought up as a possibility, but it seemed a bit too surreal. 

Sean Murphy has firmed this possibility into a probability. Because the probability is very high that Prayer Man was a TSBD employee. And when the candidates are eliminated one by one, Oswald still remains. Which, if true, would require an entire re-write of the TSBD narrative.

There were some very good quality blowups in that Lancer thread, but apparently the site is down for the moment. Prayer Man does look bulkier than Oswald, but might that be attributable to his untucked shirt?

Stay tuned.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 8:50 am

It's all very interesting. Let's see where we end up with this.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 10:29 am

There were some very good quality blowups in that Lancer thread, but apparently the site is down for the moment. Prayer Man does look bulkier than Oswald, but might that be attributable to his untucked shirt?
Yes, Richard, it might account for it. So might a number of other things that can affect images - and that's why I never totally wrote off the possibility.

I do get frustated sometimes reading stuff on the EF - the latest one regarding H. D. Holmes - Sneed's seminal work (IMO), No More Silence provides a wonderful insight into Holmes and, vicariously, Fritz, should be read by all JFK researchers/passing interesters to understand how Holmes operated, particularly with his obviously great friend, Fritz - How they'd convict people "using their wits" and how he "trained" his memory and how he and Fritz wouldn't take notes, instead, relying entirely on their fantastical memory power - it's quite sickening, actually.
Ian, Holmes makes mention of his fabulous memory during his testimony. 

The point about Holmes is not his trustworthiness in general - it's about his trustworthiness in this particular instance. 

He could be the most untrustworthy person under the sun - but if he is corroborated by not one - but two people unknown to each other, then I go with him. 

What a cop told reporters on the day of the assassination, and what Jarman told the HSCA both lend credence to Holmes version. I have yet to see where anyone has even attempted to explain that away. 

Holmes was quite probably involved in helping to frame Oswald - but only within his own area of the case - the PO stuff. He quite obviously was NOT privy to the manipulation of witnesses inside the TSBD. People make the mistake of thinking this was some masterful frame in action. It wasn't. The Dallas authorities were used to being a law unto themselves. They simply did not have to frame anyone with any care because EVERYONE was in on it. Wade's conviction rate depended on framing people and having every damn defense attorney in Dallas in his hip pocket. They got away with this sloppiness because there was no will to get to the truth at the federal level.

If anyone wants to destroy Holmes' credibility -- they have to do it in this case - not in some nebulous, generalized way - AND - they have to explain away Ed Hicks' and Junior Jarman's corroborating statements.

But they won't, because they can't.

End of story.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 4:49 pm

You know, I didn't want to believe Sean on this (my working hypothesis has been Oswald was standing by the Dr. Pepper machine near the rear elevator)  but damn if he doesn't make a strong case.

The rock which breaks most CTers is the 2nd floor lunchroom story, William Kelley offers several examples of this cognitive dissonance on that EF thread, here's one:

"As for Murphy's alternative scenario [LHO ate lunch on 1st Fl, bought Coke on 2nd Fl, went back to 1st to watch motorcades] - Oswald couldn't have bought the coke and then been challenged by Baker at the front door if you incorporate the Second Floor encounter with Baker and Truly a minute and a half later. For the Second Floor encounter to have occurred, Baker and Truly had to go to the rear of the building and up the back stairs as Oswald, if he is "Prayer Man," goes up the front stairs to the second floor and trough the offices to the Lunch Room vestibule - where he is seen by Baker. Buys his coke.Then he goes back out the same way he came in and out the front door. 
That's the alternative scenario from the Warren Commission's version of Oswald descending the back steps from the Sixth Floor to the Second Floor...."

"The" alternative scenario, geez.  If I thought anyone was really that on the ball, I'd surmise that both the 2nd floor lunch room story and the "That's not Lovelady, its Oswald!" photo  theory  were concocted for the sole purpose of luring researcher down blind alleys for 50 years. I don't think that was anyone's plan, it just worked out that way.


Last edited by beowulf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 5:35 pm

greg parker wrote:
There were some very good quality blowups in that Lancer thread, but apparently the site is down for the moment. Prayer Man does look bulkier than Oswald, but might that be attributable to his untucked shirt?
Yes, Richard, it might account for it. So might a number of other things that can affect images - and that's why I never totally wrote off the possibility.

I do get frustated sometimes reading stuff on the EF - the latest one regarding H. D. Holmes - Sneed's seminal work (IMO), No More Silence provides a wonderful insight into Holmes and, vicariously, Fritz, should be read by all JFK researchers/passing interesters to understand how Holmes operated, particularly with his obviously great friend, Fritz - How they'd convict people "using their wits" and how he "trained" his memory and how he and Fritz wouldn't take notes, instead, relying entirely on their fantastical memory power - it's quite sickening, actually.
Ian, Holmes makes mention of his fabulous memory during his testimony. 

The point about Holmes is not his trustworthiness in general - it's about his trustworthiness in this particular instance. 

He could be the most untrustworthy person under the sun - but if he is corroborated by not one - but two people unknown to each other, then I go with him. 

What a cop told reporters on the day of the assassination, and what Jarman told the HSCA both lend credence to Holmes version. I have yet to see where anyone has even attempted to explain that away. 

Holmes was quite probably involved in helping to frame Oswald - but only within his own area of the case - the PO stuff. He quite obviously was NOT privy to the manipulation of witnesses inside the TSBD. People make the mistake of thinking this was some masterful frame in action. It wasn't. The Dallas authorities were used to being a law unto themselves. They simply did not have to frame anyone with any care because EVERYONE was in on it. Wade's conviction rate depended on framing people and having every damn defense attorney in Dallas in his hip pocket. They got away with this sloppiness because there was no will to get to the truth at the federal level.

If anyone wants to destroy Holmes' credibility -- they have to do it in this case - not in some nebulous, generalized way - AND - they have to explain away Ed Hicks' and Junior Jarman's corroborating statements.

But they won't, because they can't.

End of story.
Hi Greg,

Point(s) taken - my post wasn't meant to imply that Holmes is totally untrustworthy, it's just meant to be an observation about him that few people seem to understand and I think people should just be aware of how he operated with Fritz.

Cheers,

Ian

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 5:42 pm

beowulf wrote:You know, I didn't want to believe Sean on this (my working hypothesis has been Oswald was standing by the Dr. Pepper machine near the rear elevator)  but but damn if he doesn't make a strong case.

The rock which breaks most CTers is the 2nd floor lunchroom story, William Kelley offers several examples of this cognitive dissonance on that EF thread, here's one:

"As for Murphy's alternative scenario [LHO ate lunch on 1st Fl, bought Coke on 2nd Fl, went back to 1st to watch motorcades] - Oswald couldn't have bought the coke and then been challenged by Baker at the front door if you incorporate the Second Floor encounter with Baker and Truly a minute and a half later. For the Second Floor encounter to have occurred, Baker and Truly had to go to the rear of the building and up the back stairs as Oswald, if he is "Prayer Man," goes up the front stairs to the second floor and trough the offices to the Lunch Room vestibule - where he is seen by Baker. Buys his coke.Then he goes back out the same way he came in and out the front door. 
That's the alternative scenario from the Warren Commission's version of Oswald descending the back steps from the Sixth Floor to the Second Floor...."

"The" alternative scenario, geez.  If I thought anyone was really that on the ball, I'd surmise that both the 2nd floor lunch room story and the "That's not Lovelady, its Oswald!" photo  theory  were concocted for the sole purpose of luring researcher down blind alleys for 50 years. I don't think that was anyone's plan, it just worked out that way.
Talking of floors in the TSBD, I notice the EF discussion is rattling on quite a bit about what defines the first and second etc. floors. Now, from what I can understand, the floor that we would call the ground floor in the UK is referred to as the first floor in the USA (and, probably, other countries). If I recall correctly, the TSBD was a little bid odd in that it had almost "1½" first/second floors - if you look at the photos, there appears to be a floor along the same level of the entrance steps (with the openings in the concrete wall blocks - was it Piper that said he watched the motorcade through these??) and I believe that over the years, this has led to confusion over which was the first and second floor as people, even those working in the building, referred to them differently.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 8:11 pm

beowulf wrote:You know, I didn't want to believe Sean on this (my working hypothesis has been Oswald was standing by the Dr. Pepper machine near the rear elevator)  but but damn if he doesn't make a strong case.

The rock which breaks most CTers is the 2nd floor lunchroom story, William Kelley offers several examples of this cognitive dissonance on that EF thread, here's one:

"As for Murphy's alternative scenario [LHO ate lunch on 1st Fl, bought Coke on 2nd Fl, went back to 1st to watch motorcades] - Oswald couldn't have bought the coke and then been challenged by Baker at the front door if you incorporate the Second Floor encounter with Baker and Truly a minute and a half later. For the Second Floor encounter to have occurred, Baker and Truly had to go to the rear of the building and up the back stairs as Oswald, if he is "Prayer Man," goes up the front stairs to the second floor and trough the offices to the Lunch Room vestibule - where he is seen by Baker. Buys his coke.Then he goes back out the same way he came in and out the front door. 
That's the alternative scenario from the Warren Commission's version of Oswald descending the back steps from the Sixth Floor to the Second Floor...."

"The" alternative scenario, geez.  If I thought anyone was really that on the ball, I'd surmise that both the 2nd floor lunch room story and the "That's not Lovelady, its Oswald!" photo  theory  were concocted for the sole purpose of luring researcher down blind alleys for 50 years. I don't think that was anyone's plan, it just worked out that way.
Bill is one of the good guys and I exempt him from comments below. His POV is that of someone who cannot conceive of a lie passing the lips of Marion Baker. I don't think he can be swayed on it, and it puzzles me as to why.  

Meanwhile, we can see with Pat Speer's latest, you can simply claim Holmes filled in some memory lapses with what he'd read in the papers - and what was published in those papers was the result of reporters misinterpreting what the cop was telling them. And Oswald being correct about who he saw and where they were? No problem. He took educated guesses. Hell, I've even had goons like Speer try and tell me that Baker didn't say in his affidavit that Oswald was the person he encountered (despite eyeballing him at the time) because it was against police practice to do so! Some people will say anything when they have an agenda to protect. 

Best part is, you don't need to prove any of this. It's real purpose is to put Sean on the back foot trying to prove that it DIDN'T happen that way.

Sean won't fall for that, though. And nor should anyone else.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 10:22 pm

J Ray has outdone himself


J Ray wrote:It is not nearly as fanciful as the claim that he shot the president, then went to get a coke.

Actually a professional killer might do just that. To avoid suspicion, you avoid suspicious behaviour. A man calmly sipping a coke - a coke which neither Baker nor Truly could possibly have known was purchased before, after or during the assassination - is not going to look guilty. 


And there is no doubt, since no one contradicts Mrs. Reid, who gave an affidavit the same day
and later testified, that he did in fact have a coke in his hand right after his encounter with Baker.

Except that she gave her affidavit on the NEXT day - not same day. That is - it was AFTER the invention of the phony second floor lunch-room encounter - and it appears Roy Truly pointed the cops towards her because her name is handwritten at the bottom of his own statement (also taken on the 23rd)
 
And let us recall his demeanor, as described by both Baker and Truly, one of the most glaring anomalies
in the Warren Report. It was the demeanor of an innocent man.

Also the demeanour of a man about 30 years old, 165 pounds and wearing a tan jacket who had just come down two flights of stairs for 4th floor encounter and not 4 flights of stairs for a 2nd floor encounter.

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Goban Saor on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:18 am

I’ve been reading the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread in the Education Forum and the discussion on the identity of ‘Prayer Man’ who was standing in the doorway of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
 
There is a detail not so far mentioned in the discussion that may merit some consideration. This detail concerns the manner in which Joseph Ball of the Warren Commission interrupts Billy Lovelady as Lovelady is about to say who was standing behind him in the doorway of the TSBD. This is the relevant extract from the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:
 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me...
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
 
Joseph Ball’s behaviour here seems suspicious. If he is so meticulous about getting the names of Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton right, why is he not equally meticulous about ascertaining the identity of the person standing behind Lovelady? Instead he steers the questioning away from that issue and doesn’t return to it.
 
The significance of this exchange is further underlined by the fact that the person behind Lovelady whom he was about to name is not Bill Shelley as Shelley is one of the two people Lovelady names. The pictorial evidence presented on the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread indicates that the person in question is Prayer Man. It also seems that Lovelady knew the name of this person. In other words, it seems this person worked with him in the TSBD.
 
Given what we know of the real agenda of the Warren Commission, the question arises as to whether Joseph Ball’s discrepant behaviour was intended to prevent disclosure of the fact that LH Oswald was in the doorway of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:38 am

The significance of this exchange is further underlined by the fact that the person behind Lovelady whom he was about to name is not Bill Shelley as Shelley is one of the two people Lovelady names. The pictorial evidence presented on the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread indicates that the person in question is Prayer Man. It also seems that Lovelady knew the name of this person. In other words, it seems this person worked with him in the TSBD.
Hi Goban Saor.

Welcome to the forum. Nice catch about Lovelady and the man behind him.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:39 am

Also the demeanour of a man about 30 years old, 165 pounds and wearing a tan jacket who had just come down two flights of stairs for 4th floor encounter and not 4 flights of stairs for a 2nd floor encounter.
lol!  Love it, Greg!

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Goban Saor on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:54 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
The significance of this exchange is further underlined by the fact that the person behind Lovelady whom he was about to name is not Bill Shelley as Shelley is one of the two people Lovelady names. The pictorial evidence presented on the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread indicates that the person in question is Prayer Man. It also seems that Lovelady knew the name of this person. In other words, it seems this person worked with him in the TSBD.
Hi Goban Saor.

Welcome to the forum. Nice catch about Lovelady and the man behind him.
Thanks for the welcome and the compliment, Hasan.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the JFK assassination as many members of this and other forums on the subject, so I'm relieved that my first post here (and indeed in any JFK forum) has not (yet?) been exposed as complete nonsense.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 1:21 am

Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for the welcome and the compliment, Hasan.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the JFK assassination as many members of this and other forums on the subject, so I'm relieved that my first post here (and indeed in any JFK forum) has not (yet?) been exposed as complete nonsense.
You're welcome. Feel free to post anything you think is important. Just so you know, unlike other forums, you won't find any abusive posters here. If such a thing were to occur, I would take appropriate action against that poster.
 
Cursing is okay, just so long as it isn't directed at any member of this forum. I hope to see you (and others who join) posting here frequently.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 1:24 am

I have always been troubled by what strikes me as an unsustainable supposition on the part of Officer Baker and Roy Truly. 

Irrespective of whether the “Coke” encounter took place on the second or fourth floor, why was the fact that “this man works here” enough to remove any and all suspicion of Oswald?  Why was it assumed that any TSBD employee couldn’t possibly have been involved in the assassination?  Particularly someone like Oswald, a recent hire whose pedigree Truly couldn’t have possibly known well enough to vouch for?

This becomes more peculiar still, given that Truly shortly thereafter turned on a dime and lied to authorities about Oswald being the only employee missing - which he demonstrably wasn't - from an employee lineup that never took place.

A thought suddenly strikes: when the “Coke” encounter transpired, Truly was initially prepared to vouch for Oswald’s non-involvement because he had only a minute earlier brushed past “Prayer Man” Oswald on the front steps just after the shots had been fired.   

If that hypothetical consideration is in any way relevant, what pushed Truly from ad hoc defender to accuser in so short a time span?

If that consideration is not relevant, why did Truly assure Baker that any employee - Oswald or other - was above suspicion in their quest to find the killer(s)?  And, again, why would Baker share that assumption?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 7:38 am

Robert, the same thoughts have occurred to me. 

Where (imho) you're going wrong is in assuming the upper floor encounter was with Oswald.

My own scenario is this:

Oswald is seen by Truly on first floor and perhaps also, but not necessarily by Baker. Nothing is said because he cannot possibly be the shooter. 

Baker and Truly reach the 4th floor where they encounter the man described by Baker in his affidavit. This is getting much closer to where Baker thinks the shots came from, so this person is NOT above suspicion and is questioned by Baker  - until Truly vouches for him as an employee. If an employee, it could only be Jack Dougherty - except for the fact that the description doesn't match Dougherty any better than it does Oswald.

Meanwhile, Oswald is stopped from leaving by Welcome Barnett and asked to stand aside until they can get his details. He is vouched for by either Truly (if he has descended in time) or Shelley and allowed to leave - presumably after his name and address are taken down as per every other employee - which is why his name and address ends up on top of Revill's list - and why it is slightly off in accuracy - an Oswald trait. The oft repeated claim that the information on Revill's list came from Robert Jones of 112th MIG is pure bunk for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

If this is in any way accurate -- then why is Truly vouching for "4th Floor Man"? It's almost as if he charged in after Baker to ensure Baker didn't get the wrong guy - or to put another way - the RIGHT guy... 

No way, no how this thing goes down without an "inside man". Truly was that man.

As for J Ray's latest... 

I've got the same-day testimony of Jeraldean Reid as corroboration for my version.
 
Who or what does Greg Parker have? 
If he has a same day statement from Jeraldean Reid then I suggest he be arrested for with-holding evidence from investigators.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 7:56 am

Goban Saor wrote:I’ve been reading the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread in the Education Forum and the discussion on the identity of ‘Prayer Man’ who was standing in the doorway of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
 
There is a detail not so far mentioned in the discussion that may merit some consideration. This detail concerns the manner in which Joseph Ball of the Warren Commission interrupts Billy Lovelady as Lovelady is about to say who was standing behind him in the doorway of the TSBD. This is the relevant extract from the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:
 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me...
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
 
Joseph Ball’s behaviour here seems suspicious. If he is so meticulous about getting the names of Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton right, why is he not equally meticulous about ascertaining the identity of the person standing behind Lovelady? Instead he steers the questioning away from that issue and doesn’t return to it.
 
The significance of this exchange is further underlined by the fact that the person behind Lovelady whom he was about to name is not Bill Shelley as Shelley is one of the two people Lovelady names. The pictorial evidence presented on the ‘Oswald Leaving TSBD?’ thread indicates that the person in question is Prayer Man. It also seems that Lovelady knew the name of this person. In other words, it seems this person worked with him in the TSBD.
 
Given what we know of the real agenda of the Warren Commission, the question arises as to whether Joseph Ball’s discrepant behaviour was intended to prevent disclosure of the fact that LH Oswald was in the doorway of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
Great catch!

Regardless of who Lovelady was about to name, it appears Ball at very least, suspected it was someone who isn't supposed to be there, and quickly diverted away from it. It's hard to imagine what name might have spooked Ball apart from Oswald's. 

Whilst it's a pity that Lovelady was cut off, this could be construed as evidence that Oswald even back then, was suspected of being "Prayer Man".

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 8:00 am

I have a hypothesis on the 4th floor encounter, but I'm not yet ready to post it. I want to clear my head up first. This is a very interesting discussion guys.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 8:03 am

Goban,

That is a very nice find in Lovelady's testimony, where he was cut off as he stated "and right behind me..." Trust your instincts. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes can see the tiger in the grass that is hidden from "more experienced" hunters.

And Robert,

You've hit the nub of the question. Baker's tacit acquiescence of Truly's assurances that "This man works here" may be the Achilles' heel of the lunchroom story. Why would a cop in hot pursuit of a killer necessarily make the assumption that, just because a guy is an employee, he's not a killer?

Lancer should be back on-line again in a few days, after a software upgrade, and there are some nice blowups in the Prayer Man thread. I seem to remember Robin Unger giving those film frames a whirl.

What follows is a gem of a post by Sean Murphy on August 19; it suggests to me that Oswald was noisily protesting that he was indeed in Prayer Man's position when the motorcade passed.

* There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

railroad yards adjoining the depository building. He then
noticed a Dallas City police officer wearing a motorcycle helmet
and boots running toward the entrance of the depository building
and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They
saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up
the stairs to the second floor of the building, where the officer



They saw no one there.
Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.


Ask yourself:

- Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?

-Doesn't it seem to you he has been asked the question 'Did you see 'anyone' there?


-Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking such a question?

-And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?

-Could it be that 'someone' - some significant third party - had been talking noisily about having seen Truly and the officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, after the shooting?

-If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man - a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:08 pm

Hi Goban, that is a nice catch. Counsel certainly was eager to change the subject but I don't think Lovelady was actually going to spill the beans, there's not a chance in hell he'd be on the record if there was any risk of that (since he had a criminal record, Lovelady knew he needed to stay on the sunny side of the Feds).
Here's Lovelady's "day of" affidavit.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:12 pm

You know what I cannot believe?

THey still buy the second floor lunchroom incident.

I mean, I stopped taking that one for granted when I read Baker's first day affidavit.

So I am all open to this being LHO.

But to me his physique seems too husky to be Oswald.  But the facial features are similar.

Boy Lancer is underrated eh?  THey had this three years ago?

Man, is Robin Unger aces on photos?


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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:54 pm

"But to me his physique seems too husky to be Oswald. But the facial features are similar."

If its not Oswald (or maybe if it was), it seems like the kind of loose shirt men wear to conceal a pistol.  If its not Oswald (or again maybe if it was),  perhaps it was a lookout ready to help the 6th floor shooter(s) escape.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 1:07 pm

Now THIS is interesting, Sean Murphy lays out his theory.... [Everything that follows is Sean]
-----------------
I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.
 
ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon
 
TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch
 
THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position 
 
FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn
 
FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)
 
SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'
 
SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators
 
EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.
 
**
 
Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:
 
Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.
 
His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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