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"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 9:33 pm

Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for those thoughtful replies, Hasan and Lee.

You’re right, Lee, to suggest that the Prayer Man/Oswald-holding-a-camera hypothesis should not be dismissed.


It’s just that my attempt to build on that hypothesis with the notion of his being ordered to stand in the vestibule may be a bit wobbly.
No worries, Bud.  

This is why trying to make sense of this case can be so frustrating.  We are trying to get into people's heads and behaviours with much information missing.

It kinda runs like this for me; if Oswald went back to Irving on Thursday night for some reason them what was the reason?

i) To get the rifle?
ii) To see his kids?
iii) To fix an argument he'd had with Marina?
iv) To get his camera?
v) To get curtain rods?

No matter what the reason we surely have to run with an assumption that whoever was setting him up knew he would be in Irving, or at least enticed him to Irving, because as the designated patsy I just cannot accept that his Thursday trip to a Irving was built into the patsy plan as it occurred on the fly.  In other words Oswald wasn't left to his own devices and just happened to spend the night in Irving and then all of the jigsaw pieces were put in place after the fact.  Not incomprehensible but hardly convincing for me.

If he was shepherded to Irving then who shepherded him there and under what pretence?

Ruth and Michael Paine were also budding amateur "photographers" and I don't think it so far fetched that Ruth may have asked Oswald to get a picture of the President.  I've discussed elsewhere Mike and Ruth Paine's budding photography skills when I found pictures - in a collection taken from their home - from Keflavik in Iceland - a place neither of them had ever been but, of course, they still said the photos were theirs.

Whatever he went to Irving for on Thursday I think most of agree it wasn't for a rifle.

P.S. Sean just said this over at the EF:

"The fact that Wiegman shows one hand up to the face while the other is still kept raised to chest level is IMO extremely significant, for it suggests
a ) he cannot have been using a camera
b ) he was holding something in both hands."


Sean's point a.is completely wrong given how you operated an Imperial Reflex.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 10:51 pm

Lee Farley wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for those thoughtful replies, Hasan and Lee.

You’re right, Lee, to suggest that the Prayer Man/Oswald-holding-a-camera hypothesis should not be dismissed.


It’s just that my attempt to build on that hypothesis with the notion of his being ordered to stand in the vestibule may be a bit wobbly.
No worries, Bud.  

This is why trying to make sense of this case can be so frustrating.  We are trying to get into people's heads and behaviours with much information missing.

It kinda runs like this for me; if Oswald went back to Irving on Thursday night for some reason them what was the reason?

i) To get the rifle?
ii) To see his kids?
iii) To fix an argument he'd had with Marina?
iv) To get his camera?
v) To get curtain rods?

No matter what the reason we surely have to run with an assumption that whoever was setting him up knew he would be in Irving, or at least enticed him to Irving, because as the designated patsy I just cannot accept that his Thursday trip to a Irving was built into the patsy plan as it occurred on the fly.  In other words Oswald wasn't left to his own devices and just happened to spend the night in Irving and then all of the jigsaw pieces were put in place after the fact.  Not incomprehensible but hardly convincing for me.

If he was shepherded to Irving then who shepherded him there and under what pretence?

Ruth and Michael Paine were also budding amateur "photographers" and I don't think it so far fetched that Ruth may have asked Oswald to get a picture of the President.  I've discussed elsewhere Mike and Ruth Paine's budding photography skills when I found pictures - in a collection taken from their home - from Keflavik in Iceland - a place neither of them had ever been but, of course, they still said the photos were theirs.

Whatever he went to Irving for on Thursday I think most of agree it wasn't for a rifle.

P.S. Sean just said this over at the EF:

"The fact that Wiegman shows one hand up to the face while the other is still kept raised to chest level is IMO extremely significant, for it suggests
a ) he cannot have been using a camera
b ) he was holding something in both hands."


Sean's point a.is completely wrong given how you operated an Imperial Reflex.
Lee,

Oswald went back to Irving
v. Because that is where he was living?

HSCA testimony of co-worker (Shield/Norman/Jarman? Can't recall off the top) is suggestive of seeing Lee arrive every morning with Wesley. 

Absolutely no investigation was done to see which bus Lee is supposed to have taken to work from Nth Beckley. 

In any case, we agree he was not living at that boarding house.

From the WCR: "Oswald did not go to Irving on the next weekend [Nov 15-17]. His wife had asked him not to come because Michael Paine, with whom Oswald did not get along, would be there to celebrate his daughter's birthday. Also, she felt that because he stayed for three days the preceding weekend, he would abuse Mrs Paine's hospitality if he returned so soon."      

What a pile of manure. He got along well enough with Mike to attend the DCLU meeting with him. By all accounts he was great with kids, so would have been handy to have him there for the party --- and as for "abusing hospitality"... how does one do that with a Quaker? And how does staying one extra night cancel out a whole weekend? 

He was kept away that weekend for some other reason, and he was certainly looking to move.

If he lived there, he didn't need to be shepherded there, so that problem is disposed of. What they had to do was make it look like he wasn't living there, but merely staying weekends so that his appearance on a Thursday could suddenly take on sinister interpretations.

Some may wonder why, if Ruth was helping to set him up, didn't say a lot more to incriminate him.

But Ruth's relationship to "truth" was complicated by her Quakerism. She supposedly could not let a lie pass her lips... but there are various strands of Quakers... and some have tempered their purity with pragmatism. She is in that group as shown by her admission that her pacifism "depends on the circumstances". Her style of Quakerism taught her to twist the truth in oh so subtle a fashion, or at least avoid the lie without giving the truth. You can see the MO everywhere in her testimony. What it would not allow is making anything up out of whole cloth.

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Interlude: Pardon the interruption

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 1:38 am

Lee Farley wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:It seems a lot like Ray Carroll is deliberately filibustering the EF Prayer Man thread. 

I don't know why the moderators haven't deleted his irrelevant posts as Sean Murphy has requested.
That's a big job.  The idiot has more that 3,000 posts.

If they start deleting his "irrelevant" posts on Sean's thread they should continue onto all the others he's ruined.  I've never read anything the guy has contributed that was even remotely helpful or interesting.

A complete waste of everybody's time yet he's still there... 

...wiping his arse over incredibly important work.  While the likes of Jim D, Tom, Robert, Greg, Martin and Dan are all gone....
 
Although I haven't been following the thread at The Simkin Forum, I would like to object to being the last one on this list. I intend to complain about this to an Admin, who will report it to the Owner, who will seek counsel from a Barrister, who will say that this insult is just appalling and advise that certain members be kicked out while those who are left should make a public Confession of Loyalty.


Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 1:56 am

Very Happy LOL

But you have to admit, that is a fairly impressive list.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 2:20 am

dwdunn(akaDan) wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:It seems a lot like Ray Carroll is deliberately filibustering the EF Prayer Man thread. 

I don't know why the moderators haven't deleted his irrelevant posts as Sean Murphy has requested.
That's a big job.  The idiot has more that 3,000 posts.

If they start deleting his "irrelevant" posts on Sean's thread they should continue onto all the others he's ruined.  I've never read anything the guy has contributed that was even remotely helpful or interesting.

A complete waste of everybody's time yet he's still there... 

...wiping his arse over incredibly important work.  While the likes of Jim D, Tom, Robert, Greg, Martin and Dan are all gone....
 
Although I haven't been following the thread at The Simkin Forum, I would like to object to being the last one on this list. I intend to complain about this to an Admin, who will report it to the Owner, who will seek counsel from a Barrister, who will say that this insult is just appalling and advise that certain members be kicked out while those who are left should make a public Confession of Loyalty.


Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
How do you know I meant you? 

Oh, and be careful which barrister you get.  Ray Carroll may walk in.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 3:05 am

Sean keeps going...
"Dorothy Garner did indeed see Mr. Truly and the police officer come up.
But can someone please show me where it says she saw them come up the stairs?"

I think Sean italicized the wrong part, Dorothy Garner wouldn't know ML Baker from any other police officer. If Baker took rear elevator to roof, Truly could have met Inspector Sawyer by front elevator, taken him to its top floor and walked him over to the stairs. What was the top floor for front elevator?  The fourth. 

Yes Sawyer was accompanied by other cops, but AUSA Stroud is paraphrasing Garner, we don't know if she said officer singular, officers plural or simply police which can be singular or plural.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 5:33 am

Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for those thoughtful replies, Hasan and Lee.
No problem, Goban.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 9:46 am

This is getting a bit ludicrous with major threads happening on two different forums on the same subject and responding to things said on the other forum.

It would be much easier having it all on one board (minus J Ray and one or two others). 

Does not look like it's going to happen.  

Anyhow, there is now discussion on whether in fact, Baker even used the stairs to go up any floors at all.

This is the money shot that should put that to rest. It places an encounter on the 4th floor and shows him getting an elevator on 5:

Mr. BELIN - At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. BAKER - Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.

Baker is saying here that he got an elevator one floor higher than where the encounter took place.

One floor up from 2 is 3 where I come from.

But if we relocate the encounter to where Baker initially claimed it to be (on 4) then one floor up is 5! Bingo!

Sean is using a BRW statement that indicates Baker was getting off the elevator on 5...  but Williams could only see the white of his hat. Getting off -- getting on -- it was probably hard to tell.

Sean has also identified a besuited man we can see in film being brushed past by Baker as being Truly. To my mind, that doesn't match up with statements.

Mr. BAKER - No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front. Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.


It just seems so highly implausible to me that the man identified by Sean could have got in front of Baker in time - let alone do it without being noticed.

Baker's consistency on someone "coming forward" identifying themselves, along with the above implausibility, leads me to lean toward the besuited man next to "Prayer Man" as being Truly. I admit however, that I may have a certain bias toward such a conclusion since I have Truly as an absolutely key figure to solving this whole case - certainly as being the inside man - and as such, it makes perfect sense that he is sticking to Oswald like glue trying to keep him out of sight. He may have accomplished that -- until the commotion outside got O curious. All Truly could do without being too obvious about it would be to at least keep O from advancing any further and keep him at the back in the in the shadows... 

On the question of what he is holding... am ambivalent. Could be lunch. Might be camera. I'd rule out apple based on Sean's own photo depictions. Unless Prayer man is eating a very large one. Other than that, both arguments (lunch v camera) have merit.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 3:51 pm

I kind of like the two threads in that there's no need here to pretend that Ray isn't an idiot. I do wish Sean would lay out his theory in one fell swoop instead of adding a little bit day by day.

As I mentioned upthread, Sean has laid out four heterodoxic theories, none of which depend on accepting truth of any of the other theories. In order of likelihood I'd rank them...
A.  Baker & Truly did not run into Oswald on 2nd floor, B. Oswald is Prayer Man and Baker spoke to him in lobby (though second part could be true even if he wasn't Prayer Man)
C. Baker & Truly did not see a tan jacket man on 3rd or 4th floor.
D. Baker & Truly took the elevator. 

I think Sean has made his case as to A and the second half of B (precisely the parts that Bill Kelly and Ray are adamant can't possibly be true), the first half of B (LHO = Prayer Man) is a coin toss and I think C & D are contradicted by the evidence.

Baker went from TSBD to hospital to Love Field and finally at the end of his shift, back to HQ to give his affidavit.  If it took months for Fritz (or the FBI) to persuade Baker lie under oath about a fictitious 2nd floor encounter, it doesn't seem likely Baker could be persuaded in a matter of minutes to lie under oath about a fictitious 3rd or 4th floor encounter.
Its possible a detail Baker was willing to fudge on his affidavit was why the suspect was cleared. What if it wasn't Truly who vouched for the suspect but it was Baker himself clearing a tan jacket man because he was carrying a badge? The police would not want to put on the record that a murder suspect badged his way out of TSBD until they had determined if it was a real or fake cop (or federal agent). Hoover shut down the investigation before that point could be nailed down. But I digress.

Sean's elevator theory is fun to think about, I'd like it to be true, but I don't think Bonnie Ray Williams is a very good witness. Aside from his changing testimony issue, Williams and his buddies were (sensibly enough, under the circumstances) hiding in the corner. BRW might have missed Baker & Truly running up and taking elevator to 7th floor. Perhaps what he saw was Baker getting out on 5th floor while coming down.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 3:55 pm

dwdunn(akaDan) wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:It seems a lot like Ray Carroll is deliberately filibustering the EF Prayer Man thread. 

I don't know why the moderators haven't deleted his irrelevant posts as Sean Murphy has requested.
That's a big job.  The idiot has more that 3,000 posts.

If they start deleting his "irrelevant" posts on Sean's thread they should continue onto all the others he's ruined.  I've never read anything the guy has contributed that was even remotely helpful or interesting.

A complete waste of everybody's time yet he's still there... 

...wiping his arse over incredibly important work.  While the likes of Jim D, Tom, Robert, Greg, Martin and Dan are all gone....
 
Although I haven't been following the thread at The Simkin Forum, I would like to object to being the last one on this list. I intend to complain about this to an Admin, who will report it to the Owner, who will seek counsel from a Barrister, who will say that this insult is just appalling and advise that certain members be kicked out while those who are left should make a public Confession of Loyalty.


Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
Gary Loughran warned the Spartacus that it would come to this if he followed through with his need to be responsive to Albarelli's "concerns".:
The ClownCar is officially fait accompli. It is my privilege to mourn this implosion with some of the finest, most principled individuals I've known!

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Badge Carrying Tan Jacket Man

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 6:24 pm

beowulf wrote:
Its possible a detail Baker was willing to fudge on his affidavit was why the suspect was cleared. What if it wasn't Truly who vouched for the suspect but it was Baker himself clearing a tan jacket man because he was carrying a badge? The police would not want to put on the record that a murder suspect badged his way out of TSBD until they had determined if it was a real or fake cop (or federal agent). Hoover shut down the investigation before that point could be nailed down. But I digress.
When Karen Carlin (AKA Ruby Stripper Little Lynn) was deposed by Leon D. Hubert for the Warren Commission she tried some half-assed attempt to pretend she didn't really know who Curtis LaVerne "Larry" Crafard was.  

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard? 

Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name; no. 
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Larry? 

Mrs. CARLIN. No 


Other evidence we have proves this to be an outright lie.  Not only did she know "Larry" but she knew him quite well.  I'm sure this will be discussed once I put some meat on the bones of the House of Cards thread but in the meantime here is a quote from one of Karen Carlin's early FBI statements (very much pre-Warren Commission appearance).

November 26, 1963:
"Mrs. Karlin [sic] pointed out that it is very difficult to identify anyone in the club from the stage due to the lighting arrangements.

She stated that she knew a "LARRY" and that he worked at the Carousel Club for RUBY for a short time as a light operator.  She described LARRY as a white male, approximately 23 years old, sandy hair, 5'8" to 5'10", slender build with four upper front teeth missing.  She said that LARRY tried to impress her by showing her a badge and told her he was a policeman."


http://committeeforopenarchives.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=131710616

Above link to photo of Curtis LaVerne Craford, December, 1963

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 4:32 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:In looking at photos at the EF in Sean Murphy’s post #347 of the Prayer Man thread, I think it’s possible to discern what Prayer Man’s doing.  Perhaps due to Sean altering the width of the photos.  I’d like others to have a look and report their own findings.

Prayer Man’s right hand is holding open his right side jacket flap, while his left hand is inside the jacket as if reaching for something, or replacing it.  Likely something mundane, maybe cigarettes or a lighter.

It explains the oddly high and near perpendicular angle of both arms in a way that his holding a soda bottle would not.  Both elbows seem raised, necessitating a physical motion that would require using both arms.

Thoughts?
Not remotely likely I know, but it looks to me like someone drinking tea from a cup and saucer - the cup being held in the right hand and being raised to the mouth, the saucer being held in the left hand. As he's drinking from the cup, he turns his head to follow the procession...the white spot we see is the bottom of a white cup or mug - being in the U.S., could he be drinking from a mug of coffee??

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 5:40 am

I asked for Hasan's video analysis, not Sean's. Surprised)
----
"There is an electrifying moment in the 1986 London TV Trial when Gerry Spence (the world's second worst Oswald-defending lawyer) shows Marrion Baker the Doorman figure in Altgens's famous photograph.
Baker looks at the figure and says, "Resembles Oswald but I'm not... I don't know him".
-----

Oh about the Marrion Baker video (London mock trial testimony) I posted earlier.
1. He doesn't remember what Oswald was wearing;
2. When Gerry Spence throws the kitchen Cinque at him and shows Baker the Doorman picture (i.e. Billy Lovelady), Baker forthrightly says it looks like Oswald. I got the sense he thought it might actually be Oswald.  Funny how all the attention on Doorman has distracted people from noticing the guy standing right behind him.

I await Hasan's video analysis. )  (emphasis added)
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t388p45-prayer-man-on-the-education-forum#3267

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 5:57 am

Seriously though, Sean made an interesting catch with the Washington Post Dec. 1 '63 story with Truly apparently describing how he and Baker went  up the front stairs to the 2nd floor, crossing through the office (and past the lunchroom door) to get to the rear stairway.

I don't think that's what happened but it does seem like the most plausible explanation of how it is Baker could see Oswald in lunchroom but Adams and Styles could not see Baker coming up the stairs. Any timing issues (since Baker & Truly would have hit 2nd floor lunchroom faster) could be fixed by elongating the conversation inside the lobby (e.g. "then I asked Mr. Truly how many employees he had and if he had seen any strangers in the building that day", etc.). A better story but it does sort of clash with Baker's back stairway affidavit.
EDIT: Hmm, file this under Rashomon: The Director's Cut, but what if what cops wanted to hide was a front elevator trip from the first floor to the third or fourth floor to cross over to stairway? This could be where Baker ran into tan jacket man walking away from stairway TOWARDS him (This would mean, of course, no way of seeing Oswald on 2nd floor).

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Redfern on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 6:31 am

The scenario described by Sean Murphy does not allow much opportunity for an assassin to escape. A common view is that Dougherty went downstairs with the assassin on the west elevator while Baker and Truly were climbing the rear stairs.

Vickie Adams didn’t see Baker and Truly, nor did she hear an elevator moving. Could this be explained by Sean’s argument that Baker and Truly went up the front stairs and crossed the second floor to the rear stairs/elevators? (Just noticed beowulf made the same point...)

I guess the initial position of the elevators claimed in the Warren Report has to be seriously questioned, if not ditched, like much else.

 Whether Baker and Truly ascended by stairs or elevator, is it possible that Sean’s ideas and those of Lee concerning the mysterious figure on the third/fourth floor stairs might both have an element of truth – Baker confronted Dougherty but gave a false description that matched that of the supposed suspect?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 7:37 am

Sorry, Beowulf. I will try and provide a video analysis later on today.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 8:54 am

beowulf wrote:I kind of like the two threads in that there's no need here to pretend that Ray isn't an idiot. I do wish Sean would lay out his theory in one fell swoop instead of adding a little bit day by day.

Sean's patience with J Ray is both commendable and excruciating. I mean, sometimes you wish Sean would just let rip. I agree it would be nice to have it all laid out in one go... but it would be a massive task, and I think possibly end up quite messy by the time people picked bits and pieces to address.

As I mentioned upthread, Sean has laid out four heterodoxic theories, none of which depend on accepting truth of any of the other theories. In order of likelihood I'd rank them...
A.  Baker & Truly did not run into Oswald on 2nd floor, B. Oswald is Prayer Man and Baker spoke to him in lobby (though second part could be true even if he wasn't Prayer Man)
C. Baker & Truly did not see a tan jacket man on 3rd or 4th floor.
D. Baker & Truly took the elevator. 

I think Sean has made his case as to A and the second half of B (precisely the parts that Bill Kelly and Ray are adamant can't possibly be true), the first half of B (LHO = Prayer Man) is a coin toss and I think C & D are contradicted by the evidence.

Yeah, that's about how I see it.

His latest (post 562) is exceptional research. He has found an oddity (Oswald sitting in 2nd floor lunch room story) and got to the genesis of it, further demonstrating the evolution through to WC version.  

Baker went from TSBD to hospital to Love Field and finally at the end of his shift, back to HQ to give his affidavit.  If it took months for Fritz (or the FBI) to persuade Baker lie under oath about a fictitious 2nd floor encounter, it doesn't seem likely Baker could be persuaded in a matter of minutes to lie under oath about a fictitious 3rd or 4th floor encounter.
Its possible a detail Baker was willing to fudge on his affidavit was why the suspect was cleared. What if it wasn't Truly who vouched for the suspect but it was Baker himself clearing a tan jacket man because he was carrying a badge? The police would not want to put on the record that a murder suspect badged his way out of TSBD until they had determined if it was a real or fake cop (or federal agent). Hoover shut down the investigation before that point could be nailed down. But I digress.

Sean's elevator theory is fun to think about, I'd like it to be true, but I don't think Bonnie Ray Williams is a very good witness. Aside from his changing testimony issue, Williams and his buddies were (sensibly enough, under the circumstances) hiding in the corner. BRW might have missed Baker & Truly running up and taking elevator to 7th floor. Perhaps what he saw was Baker getting out on 5th floor while coming down.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 10:19 am

His latest (post 562) is exceptional research. He has found an oddity (Oswald sitting in 2nd floor lunch room story) and got to the genesis of it, further demonstrating the evolution through to WC version.  

Just saw it, that is pretty awesome. I wonder if that was the very seat Mrs. Arnold saw LHO sitting on.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 10:38 pm

This thread is probably meandering off topic a bit now, but, anyway...

From Baker's affidavit of 22nd November:

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me.

http://www.jfk-online.com/baker.html

No indication here of seeing a man walking past a door - if you look at the floor plan of the 4th floor, this statement makes more sense to me in that he did see someone walking away from the stairway - the 4th floor was an open storage area:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=37

No mention of having to go into another room (lunchroom) to get to this person.

Was someone on the 4th floor, heading for the stairs, heard the sound of Truly & Baker coming up the stairs and turned round to get away from the stairs but got spotted by Baker?

...Dougherty perhaps?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:24 am

greg parker wrote:
I'd rule out apple based on Sean's own photo depictions. Unless Prayer man is eating a very large one. 
http://www.copweb.be/images/ce750-3.jpg

I do know the above camera attachment was never found in Oswald's belongings but that does not mean he did not own one.

Let's not forget the provenance of this camera and whose hands it fell into in early December.

It think a good first step would be to find out if the Imperial Reflex 620 came with the flash bulb attachment as part of the package when purchasing it or whether you had to buy it separately?  If it came with the camera then we can make a reasonable assumption that Oswalf owned one.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:00 am

I think there is an angle here that many are missing because of the concentration on the Baker/Truly? Oswald encounter.

If this is Oswald, and that is his simple cheese sandwich and apple lunch,  then what on earth are Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae talking about with a two foot paper bag to carry it in?

Oswald denied the curtain rods story.  (Well, Fritz said he did.)

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Brown Paper Bag

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:11 am

James DiEugenio wrote:I think there is an angle here that many are missing because of the concentration on the Baker/Truly? Oswald encounter.

If this is Oswald, and that is his simple cheese sandwich and apple lunch,  then what on earth are Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae talking about with a two foot paper bag to carry it in?

Oswald denied the curtain rods story.  (Well, Fritz said he did.)
If Oswald was carrying a paper bag that morning I'm inclined to believe it looked like this:

http://biomasspackagingstore.com/420-natural-kraft-medium-grocery-bag-8-25-x-6-1-x-14.aspx


Remember Oswald allegedly said in front of Harry Holmes in one of the interrogations that he carried his lunch in a brown paper sack and sometimes he struggled to find one the right size.


If he had his camera and flash with him then the bigger brown paper bag makes more sense. 
Folded at the top and kept on his lap during the ride to work.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 3:22 am; edited 2 times in total

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Brown paper bag or newspapers?

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 3:03 am

In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article dated November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Admin_2 on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 5:59 am

Stan Dane wrote:In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article dated November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.
Welcome to the forum, Stan.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 6:26 am

Hey, I thought of something that's shinier than an apple.

Someone would flash a small mirror from a building across the street to let him know when the car was approaching. Two flashes would signal that he should start firing.
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/assassinations/jfk-trail/luis-castillo.html

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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