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"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by ianlloyd on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 5:27 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:Goban,

That is a very nice find in Lovelady's testimony, where he was cut off as he stated "and right behind me..." Trust your instincts. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes can see the tiger in the grass that is hidden from "more experienced" hunters.

And Robert,

You've hit the nub of the question. Baker's tacit acquiescence of Truly's assurances that "This man works here" may be the Achilles' heel of the lunchroom story. Why would a cop in hot pursuit of a killer necessarily make the assumption that, just because a guy is an employee, he's not a killer?

Lancer should be back on-line again in a few days, after a software upgrade, and there are some nice blowups in the Prayer Man thread. I seem to remember Robin Unger giving those film frames a whirl.

What follows is a gem of a post by Sean Murphy on August 19; it suggests to me that Oswald was noisily protesting that he was indeed in Prayer Man's position when the motorcade passed.

* There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

railroad yards adjoining the depository building. He then
noticed a Dallas City police officer wearing a motorcycle helmet
and boots running toward the entrance of the depository building
and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They
saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up
the stairs to the second floor of the building, where the officer



They saw no one there.
Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.


Ask yourself:

- Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?

-Doesn't it seem to you he has been asked the question 'Did you see 'anyone' there?


-Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking such a question?

-And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?

-Could it be that 'someone' - some significant third party - had been talking noisily about having seen Truly and the officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, after the shooting?

-If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man - a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?
You never know, Gary Mack "monitors" the JFK forums, maybe even this one as well - he is apparently great friends with BWF - maybe he'll show BWF the clips and pics and ask him if he knows who PM is??? (lips turning blue, feeling dizzy...)

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 8:36 am

beowulf wrote:Now THIS is interesting, Sean Murphy lays out his theory.... [Everything that follows is Sean]
-----------------
I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.
 
ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon
 
TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch
 
THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position 
 
FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn
 
FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)
 
SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'
 
SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators
 
EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.
 
**
 
Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:
 
Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.
 
His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead.

-----------------------------------------------------
The New York Herald Tribune 11/23/63: 
Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since." 

The Dallas Morning News 11/23/63
In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald.  "Does this man work here?" the officer reportedly asked
Truly.


Occhus Campbell was the source of the New York Herald Tribune story. With the DMN version, reporter Kent Biffle used information he overheard Truly give to Fritz, though some of it may also have come from Campbell given the likelihood that if one reporter spoke to him, others did too.

We know some of the information here is more accurate than later versions, because here, it clearly states Baker had his gun drawn already on entering. 

Where we run into problems is the alleged quote from Baker, asking truly (in regard to Oswald) "Does this man work here?"  I don't believe that was said any more than Sean does. It's just a matter of whether or not Baker said anything at all. Sean thinks he did - I see no evidence to suggest he did. In the end, it's not something that the scenario rests upon.

Bottom line: I've been hammering away at the falsity of the 2nd floor lunch encounter (and the reality of a 1st floor one with Oswald and a 4th floor one with an unsub) for well over ten years. It was only through people like Sean and Lee seeing merit in the arguments and taking up the fight, that it really started to gain traction and go through some refinement. Until then, I had just about given up trying to convince anyone. Sean does an outstanding job. 
 

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 10:40 am

It's just a matter of whether or not Baker said anything at all. Sean thinks he did - I see no evidence to suggest he did. In the end, it's not something that the scenario rests upon.

 study 
If Marion Baker had stuck to his original statement...
 by greg parker on Sun 04 Oct 2009, 2:53 pm

His Warren Commission testimony may have looked more like this...

BELIN
: What happened after you realised the shot had come from the depository building?

BAKER: I jumped off my bike and ran into the building.

BELIN: What action did you take once inside?

BAKER: Well, there were some folk standing around inside, and I asked them where the stairs were. I had in mind to do a search of the top floor. A man then stepped forward identifying himself as the building
manager, or some such. Anyway, he took me to the back of the building and suggested we take the elevator."

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 10:51 am

Ha, I know its mean to respond to a Greg comment by quoting a Greg post but I thought his post was a brilliant idea; imagining what Baker WC testimony would sound like if it was consistent with his day one affidavit.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0426-001.gif

Another mystery is what happened on the 4th floor, did Baker see someone innocent, someone not innocent or did he see no one atall (as Sean seems to suggest)?

I look forward to reading Hasan's 4th floor theory. I'd note that if we free Baker & Truly from the need to be on the 2nd floor in time to see Oswald before he in turn is seen by Mrs. Reid at 2 minutes post shooting, they could have taken a longer that presumed time to get upstairs (Truly was, after all, a rather old man).


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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 11:05 am

From the Ed Forum thread:


"Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps.  Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgen’s.  He is not Prayer Man."


Regardless of whether he is - or even could be - prayer man... this is not where Lewis located himself. His statement as found in CE1381:



"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance..."


The DPD curiously does not seem to have taken a statement from Lewis until Feb 18 - and then it was taken as a CI report -  on the same day that the same unit was investigating "Pierce Allman's use of the telephone."
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/27/2798-001.gif


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 11:13 am

beowulf wrote:Ha, I know its mean to respond to a Greg comment by quoting a Greg post 
Laughing Allow me to rephrase:

It's just a matter of whether or not Baker said anything at all directly to Oswald (as opposed to a general question to no one in particular -- just to whomever may be in earshot)

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 12:24 pm

Yeah, I suppose you're right, Baker probably asked no one in particular. The one caveat is if Oswald were in the vestibule with black men. In 1963 Texas, the officer would have been addressing the white man.

That EF thread is funny in a grim way, Sean is wiping the floor with those guys.Its amazing, they'll accept the Prayer Man is Oswald, almost too readily (Sean's case is strong but you really can't tell from the photo) but they will not give up on the second floor encounter, they will go down with the ship before letting go.

EDIT: I cut a section after posting in the interest of brevity, but since it appears Jim referred it ("this last post"), I guess I should add back the relevant quotes.  Ray's use below of appeal to authority and "overwhelming evidence" arguments reminded me of a prolific LNer (who deeply admires the Helter Skelter prosecutor) who shall not be named, lest he be inadvertently summoned from his world into our own.
.--------------------------------------------------

Sean Murphy, on 23 Aug 2013 - 4:27 PM, said:
Sean Murphy wrote: 
Ray, the intense emotional and cognitive investment of generations of conspiracy-oriented researchers in the second-floor lunchroom story is understandable but unfortunate.
 
 
 
J. Raymond Carroll

There is and always was overwhelming evidence to support  the coke room story, 

and better men than I (plus Sylvia Meagher, from memory) have said so.

It was and remains a glaring anomaly in the Warren Report."


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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 1:16 pm

Greg, that article you quoted, if its accurate about Truly, then Lifton lied. When  Sean and I tried to question the Baker story at EF, LIfton said that Truly vouched for it the day of the assassination.  Well, if he did, he sent two different signals that day.

But this last post touches the heart of the matter.

See, a lot of people seem to me to be sentimental about the first generation of critics.  They did some good work no doubt.

They also fell for some horsecrap.  Like Oswald in Mexico, like Oswald ordering the rifle, like Frazier and the Oswald package. And like this Baker/Truly confection.

Because I studied Garrison, and how he made quantum leaps forward--like calling the assassination a coup d'etat--and was spat on by many of those critics, I don't have that same veneration.  I accept the good they did, but I also cringe at the BS they accepted and let hang around for decades.

So, IMO, good riddance to the second floor lunch room encounter.  If it will not withstand scrutiny, then bye. And i don't think it does.  It was another distraction I think, put together by the rotten, lousy DPD, with help from that rightwing Bircher, Truly--who hated Kennedy and his brother. And it was then enshrined by the WC.

The other thing it did, it set up another one of those silly WC reconstructions we all  argued about for decades: could Oswald have been there with or without his coke by the time Baker got there. Bill Kelly alway praised Roffman on this, but did not see where Roffman fell for the trap. When, in fact, the Adams-Styles story blows it up anyway.  But with Baker's first day affidavit, its even worse. The real question should have always been: Who did Baker actually encounter on the 4th floor?

I think Sean's timeline is right.  And the WC jerked us around on this issue for half a century.  Although, with me it was less.  Maybe 45 years. With Greg, maybe forty.

As I once said of Allen Dulles, I respect the man's brains as much I don't the uses to which he put them.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Guest on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 10:02 pm

It looks to me that Sean has nailed Oswald's/Prayer man's movements following the shots- he moseyed off to that small storage room underneath the lobby stairs. There he was seen by Ochus Campbell and Jeraldean Reid when they re-entered the building. "We saw him in a small storage room" was reported in the next day's NY Herald Tribune. For further details see Sean's last post on p. 18 of that Ed Forum thread. Also a post on that page about the two Bookhout reports, Sean does a great job deconstructing them.

Personally I would guess that Oswald hung out in the lobby area and front entrance area for the 3 minutes following  the assassination. He gave Pierce Allman & Terrence Ford directions to a phone inside, watched them getting there through the entryway glass, decided to leave but was stopped by Welcome Barnett, but was vouched for by William Shelley (who had returned to the front entrance with Billy Lovelady after going to the railyard parking lot).

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 12:23 am

Yes, I think this is accurate.

And I think it is accurate whether or not that is Oswald.

We'll be able to see who is for real over there by who doubts it and why.

Simkin's forum was always a snakepit.  And Sean deserves a lot of credit for playing mongoose.

BTW, how long will it take Mr. "They intercepted the body to reverse trajectories" to try and deflect everything and reinstall the cover up?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 10:16 am

Sean has succinctly summarized the claims being made by J Ray:
According to Fritz, Oswald said:
a ) that he was having lunch on the first floor about the time the President was shot
b ) that he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in.
But let's actually look at what Fritz said in testimony and pay special attention to note how much he is stumbling when asked about the 2nd floor encounter, and ask yourself why this question has him at sixes and sevens...

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?


Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."


Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?


Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.


Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?


Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.


Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?


Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.


Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?


Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

Firstly,  we know Truly NEVER told Fritz anything about a 2nd floor encounter. He has Truly saying something about a stairway - and there is a store-room right next to the stairway on the first floor. We know this is the right location because Biffle was eavesdropping and recorded it for his story - a story confirmed by Campbell to the New York Herald Tribune. 

Secondly, we have to ask why Fritz is even relying on Truly and not one of his own men as to what happened. And the answer is that Baker was singing from a different hymn book that afternoon.

Thirdly, when Oswald talked about "lunchroom" and "seeing all the excitement", he HAS to be talking about the domino room. A short walk to the entrance is all it took to "see all the excitement". He could not have "seen" anything from a seat on the 2nd floor lunchroom and since those windows were secured shut, it's problematic as to how much he could have heard.

Fourthly, Fritz is so tied up in knots trying to worm out of this that he claims the following sequence of evidence: Truly - 1st floor - Oswald confirms first floor - then their own "investigation" reveals it was actually the 2nd floor lunchroom - AND THEN OSWALD CHANGES HIS STORY TO CONFIRM 2nd FLOOR.

So what was this "investigation"? I say it was a little pow wow to concoct the whole scenario and that Oswald NEVER confirmed anything of the sort.

I'd love to have a video and sound of this part of Fritz' interview just to actually hear his stumbles once the second floor encounter is brought up. I'm sure experts in body language and voice stress analysis would see red lights every where.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 10:36 am

Great stuff, Greg!

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 1:01 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Great stuff, Greg!
Go through his testimony. There is only one place he comes off sounding like a jibbering idiot. That's when the second floor encounter comes up.

I think it's worth another look...

Here again is what he comes out with when asked about Baker and the 2nd floor.

They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows 


He sounds like Porky Pig on steroids. And this is the only place he sounds like that.

I think it's very unfortunate that anyone is clinging to this 2nd floor fable. 

I also think it's slightly comical (if not a bit creepy, as well) how J Ray, when getting clobbered, reverts to formatting his replies like a Shakespeare sonnet.

What's with
that
I wonder?

Is the man
100%
There?

Go back to the start of the Ed Forum thread. Normal formatting from J Ray.  You can pinpoint the exact place where he know the jig is in the upright position. Out pops Shakespeare.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Richard Hocking on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 1:07 pm

greg parker wrote:From the Ed Forum thread:


"Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps.  Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgen’s.  He is not Prayer Man."


Regardless of whether he is - or even could be - prayer man... this is not where Lewis located himself. His statement as found in CE1381:



"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance..."


The DPD curiously does not seem to have taken a statement from Lewis until Feb 18 - and then it was taken as a CI report -  on the same day that the same unit was investigating "Pierce Allman's use of the telephone."
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/27/2798-001.gif
Greg, that was my quote on the Ed Forum.  I believe I have correctly located Roy Lewis and will give my reasons below.  First, let's look at some statements made by Roy Lewis to the FBI and the Dallas Police.

12/9/63 FBI Report (CD 205 p23) "...  viewed the Presidential motorcade and heard the shots…but could offer no information as to where the shots had come from.” 


2/18/64 Dallas Police report, CD950, p.54) "Subject stated that he was in the entrance of the building when the president was assassinated."

3/18/64 Statement to FBI agents (referenced above) "... at approximately 12 :25,PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade..."

1998 No More Silence Pg 84-89  "...“I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing back his hair. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM!... BOOM!... BOOM! with the second and third shots being closer together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll… 

In none of these statements does Lewis say he was in the building.  He specifically references the Entrance.  The entrance is the covered alcove that contains the steps leading up to the glass doors that lead to the inside of the building. The statements of 2/18 and 3/18/64 state "in the entrance" and "inside of the front entrance".  The statement published in No More Silence makes it crystal clear he is out on the steps.
I can understand how others might understand this differently if they were only viewing the statements of 1964, but to me it is clear.  Especially when you consider the following items:
• The Black Man peering around the corner in Altgen's is located exactly where Lewis located himself in the 1998 statement, "in the middle of the steps"  (it is not the middle of the steps left to right, but rather the middle steps when viewed from top to bottom.  There are 8 steps and Lewis is on probably the 3-4th step)
• The only other Black Man from the step group indicated he was later in the vicinity of Truly, Reid, and Campbell, all of whom had gone down to the north side of Elm Street to view the motorcade.
•  I have seen the WC graphics that place Lewis inside the building.  I believe whoever created this graphic must have misunderstood the witness statements.  If you wanted to watch the motorcade with the President of the U.S. going by right in front of you, why would you stand inside the building behind numerous people who were blocking your view on the top steps of the entrance, when you could take a few more steps outside and get a clear view for yourself?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 3:23 pm

Richard Hocking wrote:
greg parker wrote:From the Ed Forum thread:


"Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps.  Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgen’s.  He is not Prayer Man."


Regardless of whether he is - or even could be - prayer man... this is not where Lewis located himself. His statement as found in CE1381:



"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance..."


The DPD curiously does not seem to have taken a statement from Lewis until Feb 18 - and then it was taken as a CI report -  on the same day that the same unit was investigating "Pierce Allman's use of the telephone."
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/27/2798-001.gif
Greg, that was my quote on the Ed Forum.  I believe I have correctly located Roy Lewis and will give my reasons below.  First, let's look at some statements made by Roy Lewis to the FBI and the Dallas Police.

12/9/63 FBI Report (CD 205 p23) "...  viewed the Presidential motorcade and heard the shots…but could offer no information as to where the shots had come from.” 


2/18/64 Dallas Police report, CD950, p.54) "Subject stated that he was in the entrance of the building when the president was assassinated."

3/18/64 Statement to FBI agents (referenced above) "... at approximately 12 :25,PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade..."

1998 No More Silence Pg 84-89  "...“I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing back his hair. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM!... BOOM!... BOOM! with the second and third shots being closer together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll… 

In none of these statements does Lewis say he was in the building.  He specifically references the Entrance.  The entrance is the covered alcove that contains the steps leading up to the glass doors that lead to the inside of the building. The statements of 2/18 and 3/18/64 state "in the entrance" and "inside of the front entrance".  The statement published in No More Silence makes it crystal clear he is out on the steps.
I can understand how others might understand this differently if they were only viewing the statements of 1964, but to me it is clear.  Especially when you consider the following items:
• The Black Man peering around the corner in Altgen's is located exactly where Lewis located himself in the 1998 statement, "in the middle of the steps"  (it is not the middle of the steps left to right, but rather the middle steps when viewed from top to bottom.  There are 8 steps and Lewis is on probably the 3-4th step)
• The only other Black Man from the step group indicated he was later in the vicinity of Truly, Reid, and Campbell, all of whom had gone down to the north side of Elm Street to view the motorcade.
•  I have seen the WC graphics that place Lewis inside the building.  I believe whoever created this graphic must have misunderstood the witness statements.  If you wanted to watch the motorcade with the President of the U.S. going by right in front of you, why would you stand inside the building behind numerous people who were blocking your view on the top steps of the entrance, when you could take a few more steps outside and get a clear view for yourself?
Richard,

I'll qualify my reply by saying I don't know anything about the WC graphics you reference. I am not in any way a photographic expert - and - I am directionally challenged. I could get lost on a dime. Nor did I go searching for all of Lewis' statements.

All that said, I would put more faith in CE 1381 than any 35 years later interview. For a start, CE 1381 was seeking very specific information. And Lewis seems to have given extremely specific information as to his position: "Inside of the front entrance". I interpreted that on its face value without reference to any of his other statements. When you do that, it does sound like he in an enclosed area - whether inside the building or between what I believe was two sets of doorways. I would not automatically dismiss a different interpretation - but I would have to understand it first. You seem to dismiss the everyday meaning of "inside of the front entrance" based on later statements, if I have that right?

Also, how do you reconcile the 1964 statement, "I stood by myself" which was made to a federal authority, with 1995 statement to an author that "I was standing with some ladies"? Could the person you identify with Lewis be anyone else?

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 4:09 pm

Anyone following the Ed Forum thread will have noted Sean pointing to how Truly mentions NOT seeing anyone on the first floor when he runs in when it seems to be superfluous information - as if denying specifically any notion that Oswald was there.

You might have also picked up on the hint that Mrs Reid was taking her cues from her boss.

This might serve as another example:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he [Campbell] said "this way" which direction was he pointing? 
Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction 
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing? 
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know. 
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else? 
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.  

Mrs Reid is being questioned about what is happening outside - and she quite rightly points out she can't say what was happening after she ran in. However, without any prompting whatsoever, she repeats verbatim, or close to, Truly's superfluous statement. 

Doth Truly and Reid Protesteth too much about the absence of people in on the 1st floor?

_________________
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 4:49 pm

I have all the admiration in the world for Sean.

I mean to deal with Ray Carroll, and also Bill Kelly who are both clinging to that second floor story like a life preserver.

Why?  I don't know.

Not to pat myself on the back, but to show how much I agree with Sean, about two years ago I argued the same thing on BOR.  That the DPD made this up so Oswald would not have an impregnable alibi.

And it now looks as if Truly did say two things that day.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 5:07 pm

James DiEugenio wrote:I have all the admiration in the world for Sean.

I mean to deal with Ray Carroll, and also Bill Kelly who are both clinging to that second floor story like a life preserver.

Why?  I don't know.

Not to pat myself on the back, but to show how much I agree with Sean, about two years ago I argued the same thing on BOR.  That the DPD made this up so Oswald would not have an impregnable alibi.

And it now looks as if Truly did say two things that day.
He certainly has more patience than I do. More power to him.

There is a world of difference between J Ray and Bill. I believe Bill is stuck because - for whatever reason - he cannot conceive of Baker falling into line with a false story.  Nor can he see past that the fact that a second floor encounter proves Oswald innocent (accept of course, it officially did no such thing).  

J. Ray, on the other hand, is stuck because he has his head up where the sun don't shine.

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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by beowulf on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 6:03 pm

Also, how do you reconcile the 1964 statement, "I stood by myself" [inside the front entrance] which was made to a federal authority, with 1995 statement to an author that "I was standing with some ladies"

Oh I don't know, what if the FBI was afraid the Warren Commission might do something crazy, like read Day One press accounts? It'd sure be helpful to have an affidavit handy of a witness who had been standing in the spot Oswald was reportedly seen at ("inside the front entrance") but who swore Oswald, "was not with me at the time I heard the shots"--that part would actually be true if he was out standing with some ladies.

On the other hand, its certainly possible he was inside or at least close to front entrance. The phrasing, "was not with me at the time I heard the shots" is curious.  Since the people who very likely saw Oswald on the first floor (e.g. Lovelady, Shelley, Mrs. Arnold) were using some variation of  "I did not see Oswald at the time the President was shot" in their affidavits, maybe Lewis's affidavit phrasing is a tell that Oswald was in fact with him at the time he heard the shots.  In any event, the day one newspaper accounts of Oswald near the front entrance were never brought up by the WC.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 6:28 pm

beowulf wrote:Also, how do you reconcile the 1964 statement, "I stood by myself" [inside the front entrance] which was made to a federal authority, with 1995 statement to an author that "I was standing with some ladies"

Oh I don't know, what if the FBI was afraid the Warren Commission might do something crazy, like read Day One press accounts? It'd sure be helpful to have an affidavit handy of a witness who had been standing in the spot Oswald was reportedly seen at ("inside the front entrance") but who swore Oswald, "was not with me at the time I heard the shots"--that part would actually be true if he was out standing with some ladies.

On the other hand, its certainly possible he was inside or at least close to front entrance. The phrasing, "was not with me at the time I heard the shots" is curious.  Since the people who very likely saw Oswald on the first floor (e.g. Lovelady, Shelley, Mrs. Arnold) were using some variation of  "I did not see Oswald at the time the President was shot" in their affidavits, maybe Lewis's affidavit phrasing is a tell that Oswald was in fact with him at the time he heard the shots.  In any event, the day one newspaper accounts of Oswald near the front entrance were never brought up by the WC.
"was not with me at the time I heard the shots"

Thank you Mr. B. That line some how sailed right on by me...

I think you nailed it. Oswald WAS standing with or very near Lewis -- and this is precisely why Lewis was made part of the investigation into the Pierce Allman phone call episode.
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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 7:46 pm

greg parker wrote:J. Ray, on the other hand, is stuck because he has his head up where the sun don't shine.
Come on, Greg. Don't ridicule Ray Carroll. See, whilst all of us Oswald "accusers" are busy accusing Oswald of being guilty, Ray and his relentless researchers are busy trying to solve the assassination. It's true!

I'm a smartass &

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Richard Hocking on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 10:05 pm

greg parker wrote:
Richard Hocking wrote:
greg parker wrote:From the Ed Forum thread:


"Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps.  Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgen’s.  He is not Prayer Man."


Regardless of whether he is - or even could be - prayer man... this is not where Lewis located himself. His statement as found in CE1381:



"I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance..."


The DPD curiously does not seem to have taken a statement from Lewis until Feb 18 - and then it was taken as a CI report -  on the same day that the same unit was investigating "Pierce Allman's use of the telephone."
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/27/2798-001.gif
Greg, that was my quote on the Ed Forum.  I believe I have correctly located Roy Lewis and will give my reasons below.  First, let's look at some statements made by Roy Lewis to the FBI and the Dallas Police.

12/9/63 FBI Report (CD 205 p23) "...  viewed the Presidential motorcade and heard the shots…but could offer no information as to where the shots had come from.” 


2/18/64 Dallas Police report, CD950, p.54) "Subject stated that he was in the entrance of the building when the president was assassinated."

3/18/64 Statement to FBI agents (referenced above) "... at approximately 12 :25,PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade..."

1998 No More Silence Pg 84-89  "...“I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing back his hair. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM!... BOOM!... BOOM! with the second and third shots being closer together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll… 

In none of these statements does Lewis say he was in the building.  He specifically references the Entrance.  The entrance is the covered alcove that contains the steps leading up to the glass doors that lead to the inside of the building. The statements of 2/18 and 3/18/64 state "in the entrance" and "inside of the front entrance".  The statement published in No More Silence makes it crystal clear he is out on the steps.
I can understand how others might understand this differently if they were only viewing the statements of 1964, but to me it is clear.  Especially when you consider the following items:
• The Black Man peering around the corner in Altgen's is located exactly where Lewis located himself in the 1998 statement, "in the middle of the steps"  (it is not the middle of the steps left to right, but rather the middle steps when viewed from top to bottom.  There are 8 steps and Lewis is on probably the 3-4th step)
• The only other Black Man from the step group indicated he was later in the vicinity of Truly, Reid, and Campbell, all of whom had gone down to the north side of Elm Street to view the motorcade.
•  I have seen the WC graphics that place Lewis inside the building.  I believe whoever created this graphic must have misunderstood the witness statements.  If you wanted to watch the motorcade with the President of the U.S. going by right in front of you, why would you stand inside the building behind numerous people who were blocking your view on the top steps of the entrance, when you could take a few more steps outside and get a clear view for yourself?
Richard,

I'll qualify my reply by saying I don't know anything about the WC graphics you reference. I am not in any way a photographic expert - and - I am directionally challenged. I could get lost on a dime. Nor did I go searching for all of Lewis' statements.

All that said, I would put more faith in CE 1381 than any 35 years later interview. For a start, CE 1381 was seeking very specific information. And Lewis seems to have given extremely specific information as to his position: "Inside of the front entrance". I interpreted that on its face value without reference to any of his other statements. When you do that, it does sound like he in an enclosed area - whether inside the building or between what I believe was two sets of doorways. I would not automatically dismiss a different interpretation - but I would have to understand it first. You seem to dismiss the everyday meaning of "inside of the front entrance" based on later statements, if I have that right?

Also, how do you reconcile the 1964 statement, "I stood by myself" which was made to a federal authority, with 1995 statement to an author that "I was standing with some ladies"? Could the person you identify with Lewis be anyone else?
Greg,

Like you, I do not consider myself to be a photo expert. The WC Graphic places Lewis just inside the door on the first floor directly behind all the people who are standing on the top steps of the entrance.  From that location, with the number of people in front of him, I doubt that he would get more than a fractured glimpse of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street.  Here is the link:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40395&relPageId=29

I believe that understanding Lewis description hinges on his definition of "Entrance".  I believe Lewis was referring to the Outdoor Covered Alcove with the Steps as the Entrance.  I can understand how others might believe he was referring to the Door as the Entrance.  It was meaningful to me that he never used the phrase "inside the building".

Nine times out of ten, I will give much more weight to the earliest witness statement. But if Lewis felt the steps were part of the entrance, then his 1998 statement does not contradict his earlier statements.  It simply provides more detail.  And it gives a precise location that removes any doubt.

As far as reconciling the statements, I can see how he might say either.  Looking at Altgen's, you could say he is alone peering around the column.  But Altgen's photo and other film also show some women standing just to his left.

The only other candidate for the Black Man by the column would be Carl Edward Jones.  At one point in his testimony he places himself on the steps and mentions Lovelady.  Then he continues on to say he was with Reid, Campbell and Truly, who were all standing by Elm St.

Regarding the discussion of Prayer Man, I believe it safe to say neither Jones nor Lewis is a candidate.

Putting all the above together, I am "nearly certain" that Roy Lewis is the guy peering around the column.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by greg parker on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 10:26 pm

Richard,

thanks for the clarifications. 

I'm with you up to your discussion of Jones. I'll have to check his testimony. I really can't see a Black worker standing with Truly.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Mon 26 Aug 2013, 5:52 am

greg parker wrote:Robert, the same thoughts have occurred to me. 

Where (imho) you're going wrong is in assuming the upper floor encounter was with Oswald.

My own scenario is this:

Oswald is seen by Truly on first floor and perhaps also, but not necessarily by Baker. Nothing is said because he cannot possibly be the shooter. 

Baker and Truly reach the 4th floor where they encounter the man described by Baker in his affidavit. This is getting much closer to where Baker thinks the shots came from, so this person is NOT above suspicion and is questioned by Baker  - until Truly vouches for him as an employee. If an employee, it could only be Jack Dougherty - except for the fact that the description doesn't match Dougherty any better than it does Oswald.

Meanwhile, Oswald is stopped from leaving by Welcome Barnett and asked to stand aside until they can get his details. He is vouched for by either Truly (if he has descended in time) or Shelley and allowed to leave - presumably after his name and address are taken down as per every other employee - which is why his name and address ends up on top of Revill's list - and why it is slightly off in accuracy - an Oswald trait. The oft repeated claim that the information on Revill's list came from Robert Jones of 112th MIG is pure bunk for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

If this is in any way accurate -- then why is Truly vouching for "4th Floor Man"? It's almost as if he charged in after Baker to ensure Baker didn't get the wrong guy - or to put another way - the RIGHT guy... 

No way, no how this thing goes down without an "inside man". Truly was that man.
All of the above may well be true, Greg. 

The problem - as is well known to you and all others who've attempted squaring various statements, affidavits and testimonies - is that they're all at such variance to each other that it becomes difficult to sort the truth from the dog's breakfast deliberately fabricated to prevent a certifiable conclusion.  It is not just that various parties tell conflicting stories, but that individuals each recounted two or more self-contradictory versions of events, making it difficult to discern not just who is telling the truth, but which version of their story is true, if any at all are in fact true.

As for Barnett, he disputes having let Oswald out of the TSBD, whether or not anyone vouched for him as an employee:


Mr. LIEBELER - Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; until they were authorized.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and out?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let them out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, on television?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You have no recollection of seeing him in the area at all?
Mr. BARNETT - None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that intersection.


Likewise, I've always had trouble with the contention that the encounter inside the TSBD was to provide an excuse for Baker to kill Oswald.  It's been said that he failed to do so because Truly was with him.  Yet when Baker confronted Oswald, Truly was already allegedly racing up the stairs, ahead of Baker, who already had gun drawn.  Baker could have fired and told Truly the suspect had rushed toward him. To me, that's a non-starter.

Similarly, if Truly is the inside man on this, why vouch for Oswald when he's confronted by police, whether on the first, second, third or fourth floor?  Wouldn't the inside man finger Oswald at the first opportunity?  "Hey, you know this guy just started working here, so we don't really know much about him, and somebody told me he's some kind of "Red."  I think you should hold him for questioning." 

(That's not to say Truly *wasn't* necessarily the, or at least *an* inside man.  He is, after all, the man who offered a rationale for weapons being brought into the building prior to the assassination, via Warren Caster.  That fact alone should have marked both men for special attention from authorities they seemed never to receive.)

If the incident occurred on the first floor, and Oswald was stopped by Barnett, then the "authorization" for Oswald to leave presumably came from Shelley, since Truly couldn't have arrived back from the top of the building in time to vouch for Oswald as an employee.  Yet Barnett claims certainty that he never dealt with Oswald, and claims that "authorization" for non-law enforcement people to leave came only after each person was questioned by authorities.  If this is so, and Oswald was one of those employees, he presumably was held for a length of time that calls into question the timeline of his "escape" - bus, cab, UFO or whatever - his appearance at the boarding house and his ability to reach Tippitt in time to kill him. 

Moreover, the story told by Lovelady to Jarman and/or Norman about Shelley vouching for Oswald as an "employee" is rife with contradictions, not the least of which is that Lovelady failed to repeat that story to anyone else at any time, to the best of my knowledge.  If that's in error, I'd appreciate a cite for any statement to the contrary.  Nor did Shelley admit having done so.

We know that DPD Detective Ed Hicks told the press on 11/22/63 that Oswald had been stopped at the front door, but Hicks didn't know this from first hand knowledge, since he'd not been a party to the interrogation.  Whatever his source, it's impossible to know.  There is no reference made to Hicks in either the Warren volumes index, nor the Dallas DPD archives.  Though it is congruent with what Oswald allegedly told Fritz, and what Harry Holmes would recall of the later interrogation session for which he was present, it runs counter to what FBI's Bookhout allgedly heard Oswald say, meaning that either Fritz or Bookhout must have been mistaken or lying.  If Holmes is credible, Bookhout is not. Hicks is just another of many potentially fruitful sources whose possible contributions were foreclosed by a failure to investigate their credible claims.

I don't think there can by any doubt that Oswald purchased a soft drink that day, for there are too many independent mentions of it by civilians and authorities alike, right up to the date of Marrion Baker's final FBI statement.  There can be no doubt that Baker said in September '64 Oswald had been drinking a Coke when confronted, because his statement was dictated to an FBI agent.  It was only after having said so, and being informed that this undermined the notion of Oswald's guilt, that Baker agreed the "Coke" portion of his statement should be struck.  Or maybe, Baker was simply reminded that he'd already testified Oswald had been empty-handed.  One must presume that FBI and Commission felt secure this hand-written statement - and the self-contradiction it contained - would never see the light of day.  How problematic for them that it did.

It should also be noted that Oswald regularly went to the second floor to obtain change to buy a soda from a machine, but this does not mean he usually bought a "Coke" on the 2nd floor.  His preference was Dr. Pepper, an empty bottle of which was found on the 6th floor near the "sniper's nest."  We know from Junior Jarman's testimony that a Dr. Pepper machine was located near the Domino room, and that it was operational that day because he bought one.  It is possible that Jarman or some other employee got the last bottle of Dr. Pepper in that machine, which might have sent Oswald upstairs for another beverage.  But all of this is speculation, since he may have only gone upstairs for change; particularly so if Truly and Baker lied about this incident.

Moreover, one cannot place great confidence in the use of the word "Coke," as by that time it had already become a generic expression for any kind of soda pop.  No attempt was made to locate Oswald's bottle, so one cannot conclude with certainty that when people used the term "Coke" they were necessarily referring to a Coca~Cola.  He could well have had a bottle of Dr. Pepper instead, which further reduces the motive for going to the second floor.

Like all other reasonable minds, I think it ludicruous that Oswald bought the beverage after the shots were fired, assuming he knew they had been.  Others inside the building testified they heard shots, or at least loud sounds that they soon thereafter learned had been shots.  Presumably, wherever he was, Oswald heard the same.  I cannot imagine him being so incurious about the nature of the loud noises that he opted to grab a cold soda pop before investigating.  So much here is so completely wrong.

As we read various reports, we must bear in mind that the higher the floor upon which the "confrontation," the more easily one compresses the time frame for such an encounter.  The higher up Oswald is encountered, the likelier it is that he was on the 6th floor at the time of shooting.  Each storey higher increases Oswald's culpability.  This may have been a factor in Baker's initial written statement he'd seen Oswald on the third or fourth floor, if Baker was a crooked cop. 

For my own part, I've always invested confidence in the veracity of what Oswald said while in custody, where multiple witnesses recount the same Oswald comment(s).

We cannot give credence to contradictory individual recollections of what Oswald said while interrogated, without a recording to backstop them as legitimate.  They did not record.  

On the whole, Oswald's spontaneous reactions to his circumstances ring more true than the concoctions of his accusers.  His claim to have been on the ground floor at the time of the assassination and then outside with Shelley rings true.  He knew who'd been in the Domino room eating lunch, and that Shelley was outside the front door on the alcove steps, neither of which he could have known with certainty had he been on the 6th floor. 

On balance of the evidence, including police officers' accounts, I think a first floor encounter the likelier of the two alternatives (or more, thanks to Baker.)

Robert Charles-Dunne

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Post by James DiEugenio on Mon 26 Aug 2013, 11:40 am

Nice summary RCD.

And I agree with the conclusion.

Just one disagreement.  If I recall, I don't think Baker said that was Oswald on the fourth floor.

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Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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