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"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

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ianlloyd
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frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Empty "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Wed 21 Aug 2013, 5:02 pm
First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

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John Mooney
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Mon 30 Sep 2013, 6:23 pm
I believe the pillar or the stock was a problem for Baker's story.

Belin doesn't ask random idle questions.

I would like to know what the boxes looked like on the day.

I wonder if there is any footage.
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John Mooney
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Mon 30 Sep 2013, 10:08 pm
Another recreation... another sleight of hand.



For the "movement in the window" shot the camera is lined up parallel to the north wall. Sadly for them that's not Baker's POV.

Why are these guys never interested in doing it properly? (Silly question).

This original film (not the guy testing the timing - is that you Colin?) is a disgrace to truth.

Baker's story is a real problem.
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frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Empty Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Tue 01 Oct 2013, 4:18 am
John Mooney wrote:Another recreation... another sleight of hand.



For the "movement in the window" shot the camera is lined up parallel to the north wall. Sadly for them that's not Baker's POV.

Why are these guys never interested in doing it properly? (Silly question).

This original film (not the guy testing the timing - is that you Colin?) is a disgrace to truth.

Baker's story is a real problem.
In this recreation the ascending stairway is reversed from the SS recreation. Baker would not have had that view through the window angling toward the lunch room, it would have angled toward the hall leading into the office space.
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beowulf
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:31 am
mr. wulf, you're speculating on what you think Robert Kennedy should have done in a negative comparison with your speculation on what you think Teddy Roosevelt would have done had he been in Kennedy's place. There's no way you can lose such an argument.
That's the only kind of argument I know how to make. Surprised)


There appears to be a pillar between the stairs and the door that is not on the WC floor plans.

Wow, great catch. The plans do seem to missing the pillar. I have no idea why lol!
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beowulf
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:41 am
Watching the film of Baker and Truly characters going up the stairs (scene from Mark Lane's Executive Action?) is a remainder how the 2nd floor lunchroom story blinded CTers for decades and still does for the most part. The stairway has since been gutted by renovation so its impossible to recreate, it appears no one was skeptical enough of 2nd floor story to film (even w/ a motion picture crew on location!) from Baker's POV off the stairway and now its too late to recreate it. Am I wrong that there are no photographs taken before the building renovation from Baker's POV?
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:52 am
You know, I keep rereading Marrion Baker's testimony. He was shown CE 498 (the cropped picture) and he was asked if this was the door he saw Oswald through, but he is not asked it this was how he saw it.

Baker says things like "I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."

I don't know how he saw him either.
 
He was never asked about the pillar/post or the stock boxes or which side of the pillar he went around to get to the door.

Belin and Truly colluded to make it look like there was only one way to the door and it was clear of stock.
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:59 am
beowulf wrote:Watching the film of Baker and Truly characters going up the stairs (scene from Mark Lane's Executive Action?) is a remainder how the 2nd floor lunchroom story blinded CTers for decades and still does for the most part. The stairway has since been gutted by renovation so its impossible to recreate, it appears no one was skeptical enough of 2nd floor story to film (even w/ a motion picture crew on location!) from Baker's POV off the stairway and now its too late to recreate it. Am I wrong that there are no photographs taken before the building renovation from Baker's POV?
I think this is very close to Baker's POV.

frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Pict_essay_thomasbugfritz_5_vestibuledoor_lrg

Close but I feel it perhaps slightly more to the left.

It would have only been for a split second as he was running after Truly to the left.

There is something very fishy about this that needed Belin and Truly to make it appear different.

And Baker was never shown the above picture and asked to confirm (which is in the WC report).
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 6:16 am
Now I'm reading Roy Truly Testimony again.. this is ridiculous.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No."
Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I didn't know where Captain Fritz was.
So at 12.42 or 12.44 Truly sees a group of his workers and wonders why Oswald isn't with them even though he knows that 10 or 12 minutes before he wasn't with them - maybe he went for another coke Roy, or the mens room or the phone.

Is 10 or 12 minutes time to be so suspicous that you ring up the warehouse to get his address in Irving ready to give the Police?

Roy Truly smells of fish.
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beowulf
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 6:27 am

And Baker was never shown the above picture and asked to confirm (which is in the WC report).


On the diagram you added pillar to above, you can see "camera location" (marked by circle) would be blocked by your inserted pillar location. Is WC camera location accurate and your pillar off or is your pillar location accurate and the WC camera off?
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 6:32 am
The position of the pillar is related to the stone work between the windows (look at the 6th floor). The pillars form a grid to support the floors.

Where I put it is "roughly" where it was, I'm not vouching for exact precision.

There is a WC photo from the "up" stairway of it. It's also very visible in the SS film.

frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Ce743
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 7:23 am
I have another problem with this picture.

frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Pict_essay_thomasbugfritz_5_vestibuledoor_lrg

Nobody sensible keeps stock like that.

You stack it in walls/ailses for ease of access. This looks like it was all pushed against the wall.
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ianlloyd
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:05 pm
In the far left hand side of the photograph, I was assuming it was the stairs I could see, but looking closer, I believe that's the elevator opening since the stairway had a door which I cannot see and the wooden slats at the top of the opening are part of the elevator "gate"? The safe is located against the small section of wall between the lunchroom door and the elevator shaft (when looking at the floorplan)?

If I am correct then this is unlikely to be Baker's (or Truly's) POV at any point unless they made a very wide "turn" coming out of the stairwell from the 1st floor.

Looking at the floorplan drawing with what I suspect is Truly's line showing how they ran round from one stairwell to the next (line marked with a 'T'), then it seems that the pillar really would have pretty much completely blocked the view of the lunchroom door if following that route.

Well spotted all - I don't think the significance of this should be underestimated - it certainly wasn't by the WC, hence the omission of the pillar on the floorplan, the cropped photograph shown to Truly and Belin's questioning of Truly on the matter.
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:13 pm
They not only omitted the pillar from the floor plan, they omitted boxes.

They also failed to ask Baker about pillar or boxes and anything that might have obstructed his view.

They touched on the "clear path" with the Truly testimony but (IMO) mislead about the path that Truly and Baker took around to the next stairs. They made it look like the gap in CE498 was where Truly/Baker would have gone and that would have taken him nearer the door.

I don't believe Belin didn't know the true layout of the second floor or that he didn't know the true nature of CE 498.
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ianlloyd
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:19 pm
Yep, sure seems that way John. More smoke and mirrors from the WC.

(I'm wondering if a new thread should be started on the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter (perhaps one already exists that can be resurrected?) as this has meandered quite a bit away from "Prayer Man"...?)
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:31 pm
These are from the SS film:

frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Ivwo

frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Ahzl

The boxes are not against the wall and closer to the table.
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ianlloyd
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 6:02 pm
Thanks John - do you have a link to the film itself please?
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 6:35 pm


The Oswald walk down the stairs to the second floor is at 8.51
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ianlloyd
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 8:13 pm
Thanks John, very interesting.

Looking at the way the SS guy walked through the door into the lunchroom, the tendency is clearly to walk to one's left due to the position of the second doorway i.e. NOT past the vision panel in the door!?!? This just compromises Baker's story even more IMO.

I think the only way he could have seen anyone through that door window was if they had walked past it entering the lunchroom vestibule from the office area - and even then, well, there are so may factors regarding the timing having to be so precise, the vision of the window afforded to Baker taking into account the pillar etc.

It's not looking good...
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John Mooney
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 8:44 pm
Strangely the SS didn't bother with reconstructing Baker coming up the stairs but moved onto the way Oswald exited the building.

There is a Dan Rather clip of walking through the door and turning immediately left.



By the time the door is closed.. you're gone.
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ianlloyd
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Tue 01 Oct 2013, 8:51 pm
Yeah, it always bothered me that the reconstructions were all carried out as separate entities. A "true" reconstruction would have Oswald and both Baker & Truly reconstructing their steps simultaneously as it allegedly actually happened as per the WC (well, in Oswald's case, a stand-in doing the WC version of Oswald's events).
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beowulf
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Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:08 am
Its hard to keep up with that EF thread, so here's a link that filters out everything BUT Sean's posts, most recent first, on EF.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&mid=5798&search_app=forums&userMode=content&sid=af0ed7682b9168b74b266db88e4f5419&search_app_filters[forums][searchInKey]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=dat]


Last edited by beowulf on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:10 am
Thanks, Mr B. Well done!

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Wed 02 Oct 2013, 12:11 pm
Some thoughts about the lunchroom encounter.

Baker claims to be going to the roof, clearly his intention. Truly running ahead up the stairs and Baker draws his gun as they start up. Wow....let's hope he doesn't trip....I know this is Texas but would any trained officer do such a thing running up stairs with a civilian just ahead?

He did not find the movement in the window suspicious. Then why not keep going for the roof!

He says he spotted movement as he reached the landing yet he places the point of sighting movement 15-20 feet in the opposite direction from the route to take the stairs up. Truly is 180 degrees behind him. There are only books ahead when he reached the landing, how long does it take to scan right to left as you turn? No way 5-7 steps.

The position he sees movement from places Oswald in the open doorway to the lunchroom.

If Oswald did come from the 6th and duck in to avoid detection, would he just stand with his back to the doorway after Truly passed a second or 2 before?

The whole story about the way the sighting happened does not add up. The only way I could see it happen is if Baker was ahead of Truly and not knowing the staircase layout charges to the door once reaching the landing....he is lost....and sees Oswald in the lunchroom.
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Wed 02 Oct 2013, 4:58 pm
Baker claims to be going to the roof, clearly his intention. Truly running ahead up the stairs and Baker draws his gun as they start up. Wow....let's hope he doesn't trip....I know this is Texas but would any trained officer do such a thing running up stairs with a civilian just ahead?

Well there's always Baker and Truly taking the elevator to the 5th floor. Heck if Baker took the elevator alone it really frees up Truly's lunch hour-- giving him time to call his wife, instruct Shelley to watch the back elevators, perhaps clearing Oswald with Officer Barnett at entrance or taking Inspector Sawyer upstairs in front elevator (to 4th floor? Maybe Sawyer's the cop Mrs. Garner sees Truly come up with).
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frazier - "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum - Page 20 Empty Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Wed 02 Oct 2013, 5:40 pm
beowulf wrote:Baker claims to be going to the roof, clearly his intention. Truly running ahead up the stairs and Baker draws his gun as they start up. Wow....let's hope he doesn't trip....I know this is Texas but would any trained officer do such a thing running up stairs with a civilian just ahead?

Well there's always Baker and Truly taking the elevator to the 5th floor. Heck if Baker took the elevator alone it really frees up Truly's lunch hour-- giving him time to call his wife, instruct Shelley to watch the back elevators, perhaps clearing Oswald with Officer Barnett at entrance or taking Inspector Sawyer upstairs in front elevator (to 4th floor? Maybe Sawyer's the cop Mrs. Garner sees Truly come up with).
Some interesting thoughts there...

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