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JFK Oswald's Alibi

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JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 1:53 pm

Greetings all.
If we are to believe Oswald was set up, (I believe he was) then something has bothered me for some time now. That is, if a certain section of the planners of the murder of JFK set Oswald up as a patsy, sheep dipped him and planned to use him as a scapegoat for the assassination, did then the planners NOT make certain that Oswald should have absolutely NO alibi for the hour prior to the killing of JFK. That is, did the organizers leave his whereabouts at crucial times whilst he was in the TSBD during the fateful final hour before Kennedy was killed to chance.  There does seem to be very persuasive evidence he was alibied by more than one person just prior to the "Kill". It seems on the surface to be unthinkable that any planners would simply leave his movements to chance. I'm certain this topic has been covered many many times for the past 50 years, so forgive me for asking on this forum. Grateful for your thoughts.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by beowulf on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 2:37 pm

Remember that the conspiracy to murder team was a different group than the conspiracy to coverup team (with perhaps some overlap in membership at the margins).

The conspiracy to kill Kennedy had no interest in proving Oswald a lone nut, they were fine pinning blame on him as part of a team of pro-Castro killers because their goal was to start a war with Cuba. If Oswald was seen by the front door, it could be explained he was the inside man who helped 6th floor shooter get in and out.

The conspiracy to coverup team had precisely the opposite goal-- to prevent a war with Cuba that would likely go nuclear. To that end, they very much wanted to pin the murder on a lone nut instead of risking World War III by letting the blame fall on a communist conspiracy (its unclear how many of the coverup team understood the pro-Castro angle was a false flag operation).

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 9:31 pm

I'm not so sure. Oswald was impersonated, manipulated, photographed, probably duped all prior to the assassination. The margins you speak of were probably blurred. You say he was a victim of some sort of "conspiracy to kill" team, and there was a "cover up team" but my gut feeling is that, the kill team is one of the same. The cover up came from within the Government, for whatever reason. The Kill team assisted in that cover-up. Therefore I believe Oswald was set up, framed,  and railroaded by the same "team" as the ones which carried out the dead. And that same team would have had a vested interest in having Oswald in a position of vulnerability inside the TSBD at 12.30 pm 22/11/63

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 Aug 2013, 10:10 pm

It's an another interesting mind-bender in a case that really is a Chinese puzzle. 

I think it may have come down to options. If Oswald went to watch the parade, they had several reserves to call off the bench.

Buell Frazier, Eddie Piper, Joe Molina come to mind off the top (though Molina ruled himself out of contention by being outside).


As far as all the sheep-dipping of Oswald goes - yes, some of that could have been specific to the assassination - but there were any number of operations it may have fitted into just as easily. 

Above all else, the assassination has to be viewed through the lens of the Cold War and 1950/60s Pop Culture.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 6:05 am

Let me say first of all, that I don't believe Oswald had any direct knowledge of the assassination. I mean, why the hell would you want the guy you're framing for the assassination to know who was involved; knowing damn well that he could tell that to the DPD and others? It doesn't make any sense.
 
The real question is: How could the conspirators guarantee that Oswald would show up to the TSBD on the day of the assassination, and not, for example, decide to call in sick. I doubt very much that they would take such a risk. But how could they make sure Oswald would be at the TSBD? Did they threaten to murder his two daughters? If so, why would they also not tell Oswald to confess to the crime? And if they did, wouldn't he have confessed given that he loved his daughters very much? I sure would have.
 
There was absolutely no way, IMO, that the conspirators could have been certain that Oswald would have remained in a certain location inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination. I think he was told that he was to meet someone in the TSBD, this is where the old man whom Danny Arce escorted into the building comes in (see Lee Farley's discussion of this on the Ed forum), along with William Shelley who said that he saw Oswald on the phone on the first floor at about 11:45/11:50 am.
 
I think after the assassination, Oswald was told by whoever escorted him to the Texas Theatre that he was now to meet someone there instead, and where of course, he was subsequently arrested.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Martin Hay on Sun 25 Aug 2013, 6:15 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Let me say first of all, that I don't believe Oswald had any direct knowledge of the assassination. I mean, why the hell would you want the guy you're framing for the assassination to know who was involved; knowing damn well that he could tell that to the DPD and others? It doesn't make any sense.
 
The real question is: How could the conspirators guarantee that Oswald would show up to the TSBD on the day of the assassination, and not, for example, decide to call in sick. I doubt very much that they would take such a risk. But how could they make sure Oswald would be at the TSBD? Did they threaten to murder his two daughters? If so, why would they also not tell Oswald to confess to the crime? And if they did, wouldn't he have confessed given that he loved his daughters very much? I sure would have.
 
There was absolutely no way, IMO, that the conspirators could have been certain that Oswald would have remained in a certain location inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination. I think he was told that he was to meet someone in the TSBD, this is where the old man whom Danny Arce escorted into the building comes in (see Lee Farley's discussion of this on the Ed forum), along with William Shelley who said that he saw Oswald on the phone on the first floor at about 11:45/11:50 am.
 
I think after the assassination, Oswald was told by whoever escorted him to the Texas Theatre that he was now to meet someone there instead, and where of course, he was subsequently arrested.
Just playing Devil's advocate here, but Oswald could easily have been employed as a look-out. If we take the testimony of Perry Russo at face value, then we have Oswald in the company of those discussing the assassination and seemingly a knowing part of the plot. So he could have been told to hang around inside the TSBD and make sure the sixth floor shooter wasn't disturbed, not realising that he was being set up to take the fall. In such a scenario, the plotters could be reasonably sure of Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the shooting. They could at least be sure that he would stay inside the building, thus limiting his chances of being seen and having an alibi.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 26 Aug 2013, 5:53 am

Martin Hay wrote:If we take the testimony of Perry Russo at face value, then we have Oswald in the company of those discussing the assassination and seemingly a knowing part of the plot.
Thanks for your comments, Martin. There's nothing wrong with playing Devil's advocate from time to time. I actually think that Leon could very well have been Larry Crafard.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Martin Hay on Mon 26 Aug 2013, 5:32 pm

Thanks, Hasan. I don't know what to make of Russo's testimony in general really. Sometimes I believe him, sometimes I don't. But even without him, we still have Oswald as some type of intelligence asset who kept the company of guys like Ferrie, Bannister, Shaw, and other Kennedy-hating right-wingers. In truth, we don't know what Oswald's real politics were and he may well have shared their views. So he may have been more "involved" than many of us like to admit. And in all seriousness, I'd say "lookout" is exactly the type of role I can see him being given.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by beowulf on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 5:05 am

OT but over lunch I was skimming through Dallas PD JFK files (Box 5)  and noticed something curious-- weren't these guys supposed to have been stopped in Daltex Building?

Voluntary Statement, by Jim Braden. Statement regarding use of a telephone inside the Texas School Book Depository after the assassination, (Photocopy), 11/22/63. 00001272 1 page 05 02 011 1272-001.gif 1271-002.gif

23. Voluntary Statement, by Larry Florer. Statement regarding use of a telephone inside the Texas School Book Depository, (Photocopy), 11/22/63. 00001286 1 page 05 02 023 1286-001.gif

(emphasis added)

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Redfern on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 5:45 am

Long-time viewer, first post.

Let me start by saying I have the greatest admiration for this forum and its contributors. A fundamental psychological block faced by many is that they cannot conceive of such a large number of law enforcement agents being so corrupt as to distort or fabricate nearly every piece of evidence and routinely suborn statements in order to reach the ‘lone nut’ conclusion. However, sense can only be made of the circumstances surrounding President Kennedy’s assassination by ditching stories like the rifle-in-the-paper bag, the bus trip, the second-floor lunchroom encounter, the walk to 10th and Patton and so forth. Several posters on this forum must take a huge amount of credit for challenging the way we think about the assassination, arguing that we should focus on DPD, the FBI, the Warren Commission lawyers, etc., and refuse to accept blindly the mythology concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and his actions. Is there now one significant element of the Warren narrative that remains unassailable?

Nonetheless, while I have always thought it completely obvious there was a conspiracy and that we now have a very good idea of which groups and people were responsible, Oswald’s precise role is still open to question – particularly that related to events at lunch-time on November 22nd. This strikes me as the weak-point in CT thinking.

I have come to the conclusion that Oswald had to be part of the plot, albeit perhaps unwillingly. How else could conspirators be sure that he wouldn’t take the day off work, stand in full view of others in Dealey Plaza or flee on hearing the shots and contact a journalist? One of the strangest aspects to how Oswald is viewed 50 years later is that both LNs and some CTs buy into the bus trip story. Nonetheless, if he escaped Dealey Plaza courtesy of a station wagon at 12.40 (which more realistic CTs accept) then he surely had to be involved somehow.

Was Michael Paine’s comment concerning Oswald ‘spying in right-wing groups’ an indication of how he may have been set up? As an inside informer who could easily have been portrayed to those directly involved in the plot as a closet Marxist, would Oswald not be the natural scapegoat? Might he also have had knowledge of DPD complicity which would explain his alleged reluctance to spill the beans in custody?

Then again, how much of what Oswald allegedly said in the City Hall can we accept at face value? If Roger Craig’s Warren testimony is believed, Oswald had already acknowledged the station wagon getaway by 5 pm on the day of the assassination. In this case, the comments attributed to him regarding, initially, a bus ride and, subsequently, a bus-plus-taxi trip, cannot be trusted.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 6:18 am

Hi Redfern.

Welcome to the forum.

Hasan.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by Redfern on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 7:00 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Hi Redfern.

Welcome to the forum.

Hasan.
Thanks, Hasan.

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

Post by greg parker on Tue 27 Aug 2013, 3:52 pm

Redfern wrote:Let me start by saying I have the greatest admiration for this forum and its contributors. A fundamental psychological block faced by many is that they cannot conceive of such a large number of law enforcement agents being so corrupt as to distort or fabricate nearly every piece of evidence and routinely suborn statements in order to reach the ‘lone nut’ conclusion. However, sense can only be made of the circumstances surrounding President Kennedy’s assassination by ditching stories like the rifle-in-the-paper bag, the bus trip, the second-floor lunchroom encounter, the walk to 10th and Patton and so forth. Several posters on this forum must take a huge amount of credit for challenging the way we think about the assassination, arguing that we should focus on DPD, the FBI, the Warren Commission lawyers, etc., and refuse to accept blindly the mythology concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and his actions. Is there now one significant element of the Warren narrative that remains unassailable?
Back in the 60s/70s as a street urchin around the Glebe area of Sydney, I used to love reading graffiti. It was the editorial column of my young life.  Unlike today, it was nearly always social commentary themes - even if sometimes a bit too cryptic for me. One theme that played out on the walls of the city for quite a while was about stopping the practice of  convictions based on "police verbals". 
============== 
‘Police verbal’ refers to the systematic fabrication of confessionary statements by the police body. This would often involve a law enforcement officer lying that an accused person has confessed to their alleged crimes. Police verbals took several forms, such as typed and verbal statements, and often led to miscarriages of justice. The term “verbal” was originally underworld slang for oral evidence, the most popular vehicle for police fabrications. The meaning of the word has changed so that it now describes falsified evidence in general. The phrases “dropping a brick” and “bricking in” are also used to describe the practice. Two kinds of verbals – unsigned notebook and unsigned record of interview.
+++++++
Often seen as ‘noble corruption’, police verbals were a common feature of police investigations from the late 1960 to early 1980s. It was primarily practiced by police officers who, frustrated by the lack of evidence but convinced of the accused party’s guilt, decide to take justice into their own hands.

http://www.justiceaction.org.au/home/justact/public_html/index.php?title=Verbal

==============

Whilst Lee was not "verballed" with a phony confession -- he was still "verballed" through phony confessions to phony evidence. 

I think Marrion Baker was dragged in based on the "noble corruption" principle.

It was just the way things were done - and was by no means confined to Dallas. 

A belated welcome from me, as well, and thank you for kind words about the forum.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: JFK Oswald's Alibi

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