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Frazier & Oswald

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Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 10:51 am

Ball establishes that Frazier usually came to work and left work solo. Why that needed to be established unless there were some suspicions, or evidence to the contrary, is hard to fathom.

Mr. BALL - Fine. Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; they didn't. 
Mr. BALL - Did anybody ride with you from work to home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; they didn't. 


-------------------------------------
Frazier lets the cat out. Oswald was living at the Paine's.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you." We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?" And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him. I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"- I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know." So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me. I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others. But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.
---------------------------------------

Frazier did not see Baker entering. Apparently he was too preoccupied with his empty stomach. 

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there? 
Mr. BALL - A police officer. 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 

------------------------------------------------
Says he went home between 1 and 2 (told Manchester, left straight away because there was not going to be any more work. Sound familiar?). Here, he is giving the police the details that will end up on Revill's list and being vouched for by Shelley. Sound familiar?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. 
Mr. BALL - You never went back to work? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day. 
Mr. BALL - You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - What time did they tell you to go home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was. 
Mr. BALL - Had the police officers come in there and talked to you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us. 
Mr. BALL - Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there. 
Mr. BALL - Asked you who you were with? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.

---------------------------------------------
Nowhere in his testimony, nor in any other document that I'm aware, can we find any indication that Frazier was ever asked  what arrangements had been made  for giving O a lift back to Irving that afternoon. 

In his testimony, he clearly states he had no idea Oswald had already left, so for all Frazier knows, Oswald is still around somewhere, yet he abandons him without even asking anyone if they'd seen him.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't. 
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Representative FORD - Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it did. 
Representative FORD - Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week. 

 
And as I've pointed out previously, Frazier claimed to have brought the exact same lunch as Oswald...

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. 

left work before everyone else for the same reason (no more work - per Manchester interview), gave cops personal details before going... vouched for by Shelley... abandons lee to find his own way back to Irving.

Buell was used as a trojan horse to get Oswald in to the depository job, and helped with at least one particular task down in the basement. He was potentially also a back-up patsy.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by JFK Student on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 1:55 pm

Last week there was a interview with Frazier on C-Span.


c-span.org/Events/C-SPAN-Event/10737440831/

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 6:06 pm

JFK Student wrote:Last week there was a interview with Frazier on C-Span.


c-span.org/Events/C-SPAN-Event/10737440831/
Thanks.

I just watched it. 

Amazing. I mean, I know this wasn't supposed to be a grilling... but fuck that. Would it really have hurt to produce his Warren Commission statements and ask a few pertinent questions about certain changes in his story?

Here are some things that really stuck out:

1. He claimed in this interview that he checked about vacancies for Oswald and was told to get Oswald to come in.
He makes no mention of this in his testimony. The official story is that Ruth Paine obtained the interview for him.

2. Seeing Oswald leaving the side loading dock an unknown number of minutes after the assassination.  
Again - not mentioned in his testimony, or in any other document.

3. Claims there was plenty of talk about the motorcade that morning and that because of a discussion with Jarman about it, he asked Shelly could they watch it and Shelley went to Truly and Truly went to Cason. None of this is in testimony, and Truly flatly contradicted it in his:

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d. First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date? 
Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't. 
----------------------
As with most things, I'm no expert in body language. I know a little about it though. And I know touching one's nose is a sign of lying. The only time Frazier touched his nose the whole interview was when he stated he had gone to visit his step-father after the assassination. Just prior to this was when he mentions seeing Oswald leaving the building and during this period, he is doing a lot of hand-wringing (again - it is the only place we see this during the entire interview). This could indicate extreme nerves, hoping for some sort of gain, or an indicator of some type of conspiratorial action at play. It could also mean he was suddenly feeling a wee bit cold! The two sections cover about 4 minutes -- but from a body language perspective, it is the most telling 4 minutes of the whole thing. A bona fide expert should be found to give an opinion.  




Correction to my initial post: Contrary to what i said there, Frazier was asked and did answer about arrangements for Oswald to ride home that afternoon:

Mr. BALL - Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No; I didn't, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Was there some reason why you didn't? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home. 
Mr. BALL - When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't. 
Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day? 
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure. 
Mr. BALL - Whether you did or not. Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; they didn't. 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 6:32 pm

K
Might also be worth checkin him over using the Nero Linguistic Programming eye pattern access cues.  A theory that human eyes are directly linked to brain access.

Eyes moving to the left accessing brain "constructed" items, IOW things that the person has no direct experience of (lying) and eye movements to the right accessing brain "remembered" items, IOW things the person has direct experience of (remembered).

http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic14.htm

NLP Eye Movement Chart and overview

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 10:39 pm

Worth a shot.

I also forgot to add - in the C-Span interview, he takes credit for getting Lee the job by actually asking at work and being told to pass the message for Lee to come in.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 10:58 am

I watched this interview a couple of nights ago. It's worthless as an historical document. Stephen Fagin did not use one single question out of the approximately 20 I e-mailed the Sixth Floor Museum as suggestions. Nothing about the midnight polygraph. Nothing from the Frazier HSCA interview- such as Frazier being put in a lineup with Oswald.

This was an opportunity to dig into some covered-up treasure, and it's gone by the boards. Stephen Fagin has shown a complete lack of courage, and chosen to be a bland moderator, reminiscent of the scripted town-hall "debates" in presidential elections. More like a eunuch in the pharoah's court, he was. Frazier will be dead and buried before girlie-men like Fagin get the kahunas to ask him some adversarial questions.

He's still a critical eyewitness, he's been living with a Medusa's nest of lies for 50 years, and is still protected enough by his coterie of coverup mafiosi to get away with the garbage he slings. Two foot, give or take a couple inches. Lee walked on up ahead of me through the railyard- it was the only time he'd ever done that- the bag was cupped between his palm and his armpit. And then I saw him after the assassination walking along the Houston St. sidewalk next to the Depository. Sure, Wesley.

The worthwhile part of the interview is between 45:25 - 47:50, where he talks about being ready to engage Captain Fritz in a fisticuffs match, over being presented with a confession to sign, that he was a co-conspirator. The problem for me is, I agree with Fritz on this one.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by James DiEugenio on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:12 am

But, wait a minute, according to the Bishop book, he was tied up to a polygraph and was so upset and panic stricken the guy could not get any readings.

Far from ready to duke it out with Fritz.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:00 am

Jim,

By contrast, Rose, interviewed for Larry Sneed's book, No More Silence claimed to view the test through a one-way mirror. He told Sneed that though "it wasn't an ideal situation for a polygraph... it wasn't necessarily bad either because Wesley was a straight guy. He seemed totally straight forward and passed the test with flying colors."

Pick your poison. "Panic stricken" or "totally straight forward". I don't think both work too well. Hard call to make, imo.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:01 am

I have Bishop's book, and allow me to quote from page 610. Jim Bishop got his information from someone, and it's probable it was from one of the 5 officers he described as attending the polygraph.

Captain Doughty beckoned for Frazier to be brought in. The test was explained to him. The first order of business was to sit in that chair and try to relax. He would find that it wasn't as easy as it looked. The best way to relax, he was told, would be to keep reminding oneself that you are going to tell the truth, no matter whom it hurts.

The boy sat. The cuff was wrapped around his arm, and his sleeve was shoved high.He was told to stare at the wall and try to think of nothing. Lewis, at his desk, studied the pulsing of the needle. He was getting steady vertical tracings. The beats were fast; that was nervousness. He waved the others back out of sight and began the test.

It took time to get the control questions and the placidity of the victim juxtaposed so that, on simple interrogations such as: "Do you live with your sister?" the needle would not jump. "Ever fire a gun?" induced a spasm peak. There was nothing incriminating in either question or answer ("Yes"), but Frazier, judging by the needle, bordered on controlled hysteria.

Officer Lewis reassured him several times, told him he was doing fine and not to worry about explanations when responding. If a question could be answered with "Yes" or "No", use the single word. Also, when a question was asked which involved Lee Harvey Oswald, the answer would not necessarily involve Wesley. He might be asked if Oswald worked at the Texas School Book Depository building and the answer should be "Yes" without excitement.

Lewis realized that it would be a lengthy test, but he was a patient man. He expected a jump on the needle when he asked a control question such as: "Ever do anything you're ashamed of?" or "When you were little, did you ever lie to your mother?" There were five police officers in the room and the doorway, and there wasn't one who expected to learn anything from Wesley Buell Frazier. All they had managed to do was scare the wits out of him.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:22 am

Richard,

that's a lot of detail from Lewis - a man who would eventually forget he ever administered a test on Frazier, and if he did administer such a test, failed to maintain a proper record of it.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 10:23 am

Sources about the midnight polygraph are Bishop's The Day Kennedy Was Shot (1968), George O'Toole's The Assassination Tapes (1975) and Larry Sneed's No More Silence (1998). I'm more inclined to go with Bishop's characterization of Frazier as "scared out of his wits", simply because it was relatively fresh. I don't think he took "literary license" by adding in things that weren't described to him. Not much of it, anyway. He very likely had an inside source in the DPD. Word of Bishop's book may have made the rounds within the DPD, so several cops, like Lewis, played dumb and forgetful by the time O'Toole did his research. That's my guess.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 10:32 am

That's fine, Richard, but what bothers me is why the need to "clam up" at all. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with giving someone a polygraph. Others were given, and records kept of them.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by beowulf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 3:29 pm

The worthwhile part of the interview is between 45:25 - 47:50, where he talks about being ready to engage Captain Fritz in a fisticuffs match, over being presented with a confession to sign, that he was a co-conspirator. The problem for me is, I agree with Fritz on this on

Did Frazier say what role in a conspiracy Fritz accused him of playing?  Captain Fritz must have been freaking out that when he realized that thanks to Baker's quick thinking (thanks for nothing Marrion), he and Truly had provided Oswald a rock solid alibi. Oswald could still be involved in the murder (and share legal culpability) if he was the lookout while his conspirator was shooting upstairs. Hmm, who can we pin that on?

That's fine, Richard, but what bothers me is why the need to "clam up" at all. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with giving someone a polygraph. Others were given, and records kept of them.

Its not the answers they needed to bury, it was the questions. What if the examiner queried Frazier on, say, whether he was upstairs shooting while Oswald was downstairs on the 1st floor looking out for cops?  If that was released, the public might wonder where these outrageous Sean Murphy-style questions were coming from.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 7:02 am

bump in light of the PM thread.

I would like to know more about the claim of "Frazier being put in a lineup with Oswald."
I had heard about it before, a very long time ago, but cannot seem to find much out there.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 7:40 am

I think this is also worth revisiting from the PM thread:

Colin Crow wrote:From Frazier's HSCA interview courtesy of Richard's collection. An interesting answer. 
 
 
John Mooney wrote:
"Billy was about two feet closer to the situation".
 
The obvious interpretation is the extension "... than Oswald".
 
That is indeed a VERY interesting find.
 
How could Frazier live with himself?

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 8:24 am

Stan Dane wrote:I think this is also worth revisiting from the PM thread:

Colin Crow wrote:From Frazier's HSCA interview courtesy of Richard's collection. An interesting answer. 
 
 
John Mooney wrote:
"Billy was about two feet closer to the situation".
 
The obvious interpretation is the extension "... than Oswald".
 
That is indeed a VERY interesting find.
 
How could Frazier live with himself?
Its difficult to know whether Frazier is referring to the point he was standing from or whether it was a slip. To be fair, Moriarty had asked him earlier, "while you were standing-out standing next to him?". So he may have been referring to his own position.
From what we know now about PM, it makes you wonder.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 8:54 am

You also need to take into account that this was transcribed by Richard from very poor quality tape and there are very obvious errors in transcription throughout - the only alternative being that they were attempting to talk in a mix of codes, Double Dutch and Pigeon English.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 9:33 am

greg parker wrote:You also need to take into account that this was transcribed by Richard from very poor quality tape and there are very obvious errors in transcription throughout - the only alternative being that they were attempting to talk in a mix of codes, Double Dutch and Pigeon English.
Are you saying the quality of the transcription is questionable and cannot be relied upon?

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 11:11 am

Stan, I'm saying parts are okay, other parts you can get a kind of a rough gist of it, but there are also parts that are sheer gobbledegook. 

Or maybe it's just me, because I've brought this up before and no one has come out and agreed with me on it.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by gerrrycam on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 12:36 am

What better way to keep tabs on Buell Wesley Frazier? He was drafted into the Army and inducted on August 2, 1965 at the age of 21.( 
Greg is there anyway Frazier was in Army in 1963?
Info stats he never was in war zone

He was discharged on 3/25/77 at the age of 32, at Ft. Hood with the rank of Sergeant.(38) He earned the following distinctions: National Defense Service Medal, Marksman Badge w/ Rifle Bar, Good Conduct Medal, Army Commendation Medal, and Expert Badge w/ Rifle Bar
The National Defense Service Medal (NDSM) is awarded to anyone who serves on active duty in the United States military during the above time periods
Commendation Medal is a mid-level United States military decoration which is presented for sustained acts of heroism or meritorious service. For valorous actions in direct contact with an enemy, but of a lesser degree than required for the award of the Bronze Star Medal,

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 8:41 am

Jerry, 

I agree it would be a good way to keep tabs on him, but he was in the age range for the draft and it would be difficult to make a case his number was not drawn honestly. Tha said, apart from a brief stint as a Navy cadet, I have no military experience and come from a long line of draft dodgers and AWOLers so my opinion might not mean much here.

The commendation medal had to have been awarded for "meritorious service" which I gather does not necessarily mean serving overseas - let alone in a war zone.

I can understand you pondering the possibility he was already in the army when he turned up at his sister's place. There was almost certainly more to it than we know. His visit to his father despite avoiding him up to then because of his drunken and violent nature, concerns me as suggestive of something!

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:53 am

Nothing definitive, but I have a little knowledge on this subject.
 
With a few minor exceptions, the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal is for officers and senior NCOs. It's generally for meritorious service, and in those rare instances where combat action is involved, a Combat V device is tacked on. Just below it in rank, the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal was designed for more junior ranking officers/enlisted not eligible for the Commendation Medal.
 
During the Iran Hostage situation in 1980, I was awarded the Navy Achievement Medal (as it was called prior to 1994) for "professional achievement." It was kind of a bone they threw me for doing the job of an E-8 for almost a year (pretty damn well I might add) as I was an E-6 and there was a serious shortage of senior NCOs at the time. The senior guys got Commendation Medals.
 
The Army didn't have an Achievement Medal until 1981, so I understand the Army Commendation Medal was much more open to the rank and file members back then (certainly more so than the Navy Commendation Medal). It can be awarded for combat action, but it's usually for meritorious service.

Bottom line: most Navy Commendation Medals were for doing a good job, no matter where you were stationed. I believe the same was true for the Army years ago. Just my opinion which is worth about two cents.

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Re: Frazier & Oswald

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