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Questions for Beowulf

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Questions for Beowulf

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 11:49 am

beowulf wrote:I don't think it's common knowledge amongst some of the newer people interested in the case that the the Dallas Police were either getting ready to charge Frazier as a co-conspirator, or were creating the pretense that they were getting ready to charge him as a co-conspirator.

Interesting because according to most researchers, Oswald acting alone meant no federal jurisdiction (that's not quite true, but it is commonly believed). A conspirator would mean the US Attorney could bring charges under one of the dormant (but still valid) Reconstruction era civil rights  laws, with a maximum of 6 or 10 years  imprisonment, depending on which one he used. If there was no second accomplice, there was no conspiracy and thus (in theory) no federal jurisdiction.


In reality, the FBI could still have asserted jurisdiction even if Oswald acted alone.There's a federal law (18 USC 1001) that at least since 1934 has made it a felony to make false statements to Uncle Sam. Its like a perjury law without any requirement you take an oath.  Each false statement (and there could be multiple lies in a single FBI interview or PO Box application) is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. Its a pretty big stick since those 5 year hits can quickly add up. I have no doubt Hosty and Bookhout could have easily popped Oswald with 50 years worth of federal charges if they had applied themselves.
I have to say, it is good having someone with a legal background here (whose name isn't Ray). Cool 

Can I ask where it stands with the following from a legal standpoint:


  • Lying on on his USMC enlistment papers by saying he had never been rejected for service previously



  • Obtaining a hardship (or dependency?) discharge under false pretences



  • Lying on his travel documents that he was in the import/export business



  • Defacing his passport (he had scratched out the US address)



  • And the ever popular - threatening to give classified secrets to the Soviets (whether or not he actually carried out the threat - that is... was the threat itself an offence)


I have one more, but would prefer to ask privately, if that's okay with you? Depending on the answer, it could help sort out just who Oswald was from intel angle.

edit: make that two more...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by beowulf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 12:56 pm

Defacing his passport (he had scratched out the US address)
US passports don't list an address, only the state of birth (or country, if a naturalized citizen).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_passport#Data_page_and_signature_page

Simplest way to think of most of that list, tack on 5 years for every falsehood to govt (keeping in mind statute of limitations was 3 or 4 years back then). Here's the DOJ cheat sheet for false statements prosecutions.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00908.htm

The biggie, which makes me think Oswald's Russian sojourn was on behalf of the govt, is the Espionage Act. They had the guy dead to rights on a capital offense and he doesn't even get cited for a misdemeanor when he comes home? That's even more curious than the CIA Consulate officer complaining about LHO scratching out a passport address. PM your other questions if you wish, don't worry, the meters not running. Surprised)

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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 1:58 pm

beowulf wrote:Defacing his passport (he had scratched out the US address)
US passports don't list an address, only the state of birth (or country, if a naturalized citizen).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_passport#Data_page_and_signature_page

Simplest way to think of most of that list, tack on 5 years for every falsehood to govt (keeping in mind statute of limitations was 3 or 4 years back then). Here's the DOJ cheat sheet for false statements prosecutions.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00908.htm

The biggie, which makes me think Oswald's Russian sojourn was on behalf of the govt, is the Espionage Act. They had the guy dead to rights on a capital offense and he doesn't even get cited for a misdemeanor when he comes home? That's even more curious than the CIA Consulate officer complaining about LHO scratching out a passport address. PM your other questions if you wish, don't worry, the meters not running. Surprised)
Okay. But isn't that a partial address visible above where the black marker has been used? 
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0088a.htm


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by beowulf on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 2:28 pm

Ha, I've had a US passport continuously since I was an infant and never noticed until I just retrieved it from my desk that on page 5 (on the third page of fine pint) is this, in English and French, "Bearer's Address in United States" and "Bearer's Foreign Address", and under each of those instructions are a couple of blank lines (and blank lines for emergency contact), well they're only blank if you never write anything there, oops!

Fine print on Page 4 says alteration or mutilation of a passport is a crime, that only govt officials (US and foreign) may, "place stamps or make statements, notations, or additions in this passport. You may amend or update personal information for your own convenience on page 5". In others words, it wasn't passport mutilation Greg, it was simply Oswald exercising his right to amend or update his personal information. Surprised)

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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 3:53 pm

beowulf wrote:Ha, I've had a US passport continuously since I was an infant and never noticed until I just retrieved it from my desk that on page 5 (on the third page of fine pint) is this, in English and French, "Bearer's Address in United States" and "Bearer's Foreign Address", and under each of those instructions are a couple of blank lines (and blank lines for emergency contact), well they're only blank if you never write anything there, oops!

Fine print on Page 4 says alteration or mutilation of a passport is a crime, that only govt officials (US and foreign) may, "place stamps or make statements, notations, or additions in this passport. You may amend or update personal information for your own convenience on page 5". In others words, it wasn't passport mutilation Greg, it was simply Oswald exercising his right to amend or update his personal information. Surprised)
Oswald has no right to exercise his (so-called) rights! It's not in the standard patsy contract!

Okay. Gotcha. And thanks.

Have PM'd you about the other, but don't know if it sent as all by boxes are full... let me know...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 3:56 pm

beowulf wrote:Defacing his passport (he had scratched out the US address)
US passports don't list an address, only the state of birth (or country, if a naturalized citizen).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_passport#Data_page_and_signature_page

Simplest way to think of most of that list, tack on 5 years for every falsehood to govt (keeping in mind statute of limitations was 3 or 4 years back then). Here's the DOJ cheat sheet for false statements prosecutions.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00908.htm

The biggie, which makes me think Oswald's Russian sojourn was on behalf of the govt, is the Espionage Act. They had the guy dead to rights on a capital offense and he doesn't even get cited for a misdemeanor when he comes home? That's even more curious than the CIA Consulate officer complaining about LHO scratching out a passport address. PM your other questions if you wish, don't worry, the meters not running. Surprised)
So the mere act of threatening to divulge classified material was an offence - whether or not it was carried out?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3448
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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by beowulf on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:44 am

So the mere act of threatening to divulge classified material was an offence - whether or not it was carried out?

Assuming he wasn't a double agent working for The Man, he's guilty of espionage simply with the admission (to US diplomat in Russia) of his intent to divulge secrets to the Soviets. Aside from the facts he deserted his post-- he wasn't drilling or checking in with his Reserve unit-- and that a U-2 plane was shot down shortly after the former radar operator defected, the Espionage Act is an unusually broad law. It includes "attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government..".

Its that word "attempts" that should have sunk him. Legal definition of attempt is forming intent to commit crime (proven by his statement he was going to leak secrets to Soviets) and taking a substantial step towards completion of the crime. I would argue, if abandoning your Marine Reserve unit and defecting to the Soviet Union isn't a substantial step towards the crime of leaking secrets to the Soviets, then nothing is.

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Re: Questions for Beowulf

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 7:02 am

beowulf wrote:So the mere act of threatening to divulge classified material was an offence - whether or not it was carried out?

Assuming he wasn't a double agent working for The Man, he's guilty of espionage simply with the admission (to US diplomat in Russia) of his intent to divulge secrets to the Soviets. Aside from the facts he deserted his post-- he wasn't drilling or checking in with his Reserve unit-- and that a U-2 plane was shot down shortly after the former radar operator defected, the Espionage Act is an unusually broad law. It includes "attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government..".

Its that word "attempts" that should have sunk him. Legal definition of attempt is forming intent to commit crime (proven by his statement he was going to leak secrets to Soviets) and taking a substantial step towards completion of the crime. I would argue, if abandoning your Marine Reserve unit and defecting to the Soviet Union isn't a substantial step towards the crime of leaking secrets to the Soviets, then nothing is.
Thanks,

that is what I thought was the case.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3448
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Re: Questions for Beowulf

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