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LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

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LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 7:02 pm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1136&relPageId=703

Near the top right hand corner is a section saying "Service or Component for which Consent is Given".

As you can see, it's very difficult to read. You would assume it says "USMC" but I was told years ago that it actually says something else.

I was wondering if anyone here thinks they can make out what it says? Or knows where a clearer copy might be on the net?

I don't want to give away what i was told in case that influences what is "seen".

Any help appreciated as, depending upon what it says, it could be extremely important in understand who Oswald was.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 8:11 pm

U.S. Marine Corp Reserve for Extended Active Duty

Guest
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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 9:53 pm

Great! That is exactly what I was told it said. So with only permission to join the reserves, how is he in the regular Marines?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 10:18 pm

However, there is also something stamped very faint above this, Greg.  Impossible to make out but there's certainly something there.

Could it say U.S. Marine Corp?

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 10:52 pm

It could say that, but it's Marguerite's permission that counts.

See, I think he was in the Reserves all along...  but that's as far as I want to say here for now.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Sep 2013, 11:33 pm

Lee Farley wrote:U.S. Marine Corp Reserve for Extended Active Duty
It sez, "U.S. Marine Corps or U.S. Marine Corps Reserve for Extended Active Duty."
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sAbJNSH5NeQ/UiSVVH7st_I/AAAAAAAABUM/nXB6ES-2xbo/s1024/OswaldEnlistment.png


https://www.google.com/#psj=1&q=oswald+enlisted+in+reserves+for+extended+active+duty
[PDF]
0 num 0 susacsumee u
jfk.hood.edu/.../Oswald%20Lee%20Harvey%20Marine%20Corps%20Fil...‎
qualifiedhttps://www.google.com/#psj=1&q=oswald+enlisted+in+reserves+for+extended+active+duty in accordance with existing instructions, for enlistment In the Marine Corps ...... Having enlisted in the U. S. Marine Corps Reserve this date, the man ... immediate assignment to unrestricted extended active duty in accordance with ... LEE HARVEY OSWALD attended two six-week schools: at Jacksonville, Fla.

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 7:45 am

Thanks Tom.

"or" punches way above it's weight.

I just found where Martin Shackelford  transcribed it, but only viewable in cashe:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mo325VujatcJ:www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/mil.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 7:47 am

These questions and those to Beowulf are some "housecleaning" since they are based on considerations put to me years ago and which I had never fully pinned down as accurate, or in error.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Wed 04 Sep 2013, 6:39 pm

Tom Scully wrote:"U.S. Marine Corps or U.S. Marine Corps Reserve for Extended Active Duty."
Would such parental authorizations usually be in the form of "service X OR component "Y"?

In other words, would it be normal to give an optional authorization? You can put him in this OR that?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by beowulf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 3:05 pm

Marine Corps Reserves certainly is part of the Marine Corps (the 4th Marine Division is all reservists).  The difference between USMC and USMCR on active duty makes very little difference to young enlisted men like Oswald (everyone has to go active at first, if only to train), so the parental form reflects its six of one, half a dozen of the other.

However, if someone who wanted to make a career of the military, reservists on extended active duty (every service lets reservists volunteer for active duty assignments to save someone else from being ordered to do it)) are the "temps" that'd be the first let go if, say, budget cuts require laying off servicemen.

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

Thanks,

None of this is what I expected to be hearing - but it's just as important to be able to rule out, as well as in, various trains of thought.

Let me put something to you.

Just say hypothetically that the Congress put forward legislation for the formation of a highly specialized youth training corps as one response to the Korean War POW "problem", among other issues dealing with recruitment, training and retention - and that this hypothetical corps would have all its own training facilities, it's own unique identity etc and would basically be a feeder into the military and various intel services. 

Let's further say hypothetically that the bill passed but in slightly eviscerated form, which deprived it of it's own training facilities and its own identity, but instead, assimilated it into the reserves of the various services.

Did I mention this was all hypothetical?

Let's further say, hypothetically speaking, that Oswald was recruited into this hypothetical corps and that his first mission was to deliver radar information to the Soviets, while acting as a potential defector.

The hypothetical reason for this mission was to save the test ban talks. The sting in the hypothetical tail? He could legally give this information to the Soviets (no matter what level of secrecy it had), but had to do it under cover of being a potential defector.

He also had a hypothetical deadline which is why he could not wait a lousy few weeks for time to be up and why he needed to get out of the Marines "straight away".  
         
Another sting in the hypothetical tail: his mission was supported the SR Division of CIA through the REDSKIN program and they used this hypothetical inside knowledge to make sure the test ban treaty would NOT go ahead.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by beowulf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 5:43 pm

Hypothetically, eh.  For absolutely no particular reason. I know precisely what you're talking about (and this is the one opportunity I'll ever have to share this) but, alas, you're off-base. The National Security Training Corps (NSTC) was written into law (where it sits today) but was never stood up because back in the 1950s Congress didn't pass the required follow on legislation.

President Truman (himself a reserve Army officer who fought in WWI) was a big big fan of Universal Military Training.  Every young man coming out of high school would spend 6 to 12 months receiving military training. The Pentagon didn't like Universal Service because they needed fewer men but for longer time (the "Selective Service" draft we had till the end of the Vietnam War would induct men for 2 years at a time) .  The Pentagon also didn't like the UMT men couldn't be deployed outside the US and they were not part of any branch of the military but would be in the aforementioned National Security Training Corps.  I forget offhand (yes this is all from memory)  if it passed in Truman's administration or at the beginning of Eisenhower's, but opponents of the bill added a poison pill; sure you can have your UMT bill but we'll need a presidential commission come up with rules of discipline (and settle other bureaucratic details arising because it'd be a new military service). Only after we ratify that report can you start the show.  Naturally, Congress ignored the commission report and never voted to stand up the National Security Training Corps.  Its a dead letter, like the United States Court for China, well deader than that because the China Court once actually existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_for_China

I assure you the NSTC  is one group that did not play a role in Dallas.  Ahh, here's a pdf link to an academic paper about UMT and the sad, stillborn fate of the NSTC.
http://shfg.org/shfg/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sager.pdf

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 6:09 pm

beowulf wrote:Hypothetically, eh.  For absolutely no particular reason. I know precisely what you're talking about (and this is the one opportunity I'll ever have to share this) but, alas, you're off-base. The National Security Training Corps (NSTC) was written into law (where it sits today) but was never stood up because back in the 1950s Congress didn't pass the required follow on legislation.

President Truman (himself a reserve Army officer who fought in WWI) was a big big fan of Universal Military Training.  Every young man coming out of high school would spend 6 to 12 months receiving military training. The Pentagon didn't like Universal Service because they needed fewer men but for longer time (the "Selective Service" draft we had till the end of the Vietnam War would induct men for 2 years at a time) .  The Pentagon also didn't like the UMT men couldn't be deployed outside the US and they were not part of any branch of the military but would be in the aforementioned National Security Training Corps.  I forget offhand (yes this is all from memory)  if it passed in Truman's administration or at the beginning of Eisenhower's, but opponents of the bill added a poison pill; sure you can have your UMT bill but we'll need a presidential commission come up with rules of discipline (and settle other bureaucratic details arising because it'd be a new military service). Only after we ratify that report can you start the show.  Naturally, Congress ignored the commission report and never voted to stand up the National Security Training Corps.  Its a dead letter, like the United States Court for China, well deader than that because the China Court once actually existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_for_China

I assure you the NSTC  is one group that did not play a role in Dallas.  Ahh, here's a pdf link to an academic paper about UMT and the sad, stillborn fate of the NSTC.
http://shfg.org/shfg/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sager.pdf
Ha! I knew you'd pick up on it!

It's all helpful. I have a fair amount of evidence supporting the rest of the hypothetical - it's just a matter of finding the vehicle that initially drove it. You've convinced me I can rule out the NSTC.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by beowulf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 6:11 pm

OK after that data dump, I'd just point out the rest of your theory could be correct, if we amend it to reflect that instead of being recruited and trained by a hypothetical corps he was recruited and trained by the actual Marine Corps.

Bear in mind, all legal authority to classify and declassify secret information rests with the president who delegates authority and set other rules by executive order. Just as (reportedly, at least) Queen Elizabeth doesn't have a passport, Barack Obama doesn't have a security clearance-- he's the guy who grants all security clearances.  So a secret mission to leak data contrary to the president's wishes would not actually be legal.

As a practical matter, a young Marine following orders in that case would never be prosecuted for it.  The order isn't intrinsically wrong, like a command to shoot POWs. A soldier ordered to leak information by his superior officers would have no way of knowing THEY were off the reservation and were giving an unlawful order.

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 6:32 pm

beowulf wrote:OK after that data dump, I'd just point out the rest of your theory could be correct, if we amend it to reflect that instead of being recruited and trained by a hypothetical corps he was recruited and trained by the actual Marine Corps.

Bear in mind, all legal authority to classify and declassify secret information rests with the president who delegates authority and set other rules by executive order. Just as (reportedly, at least) Queen Elizabeth doesn't have a passport, Barack Obama doesn't have a security clearance-- he's the guy who grants all security clearances.  So a secret mission to leak data contrary to the president's wishes would not actually be legal.

Oh, I'm with you on that. We're talking Ike's "Secret Team" here. It was very much with the president's wishes. And there was an exchange agreement which made it legal to share such things as "new" technology through certain specified avenues OR "by any other method agreed upon". It would explain why he was never charged, and would be a good way of of circumventing objections from the administration and Pentagon's many hawks.

The signing of this exchange agreement coincided with Oswald's "defection".

Trust me. Radar was THE key issue in getting the Soviets on board for a test ban treaty - regardless of what anyone else may have written or said. 


As a practical matter, a young Marine following orders in that case would never be prosecuted for it.  The order isn't intrinsically wrong, like a command to shoot POWs. A soldier ordered to leak information by his superior officers would have no way of knowing THEY were off the reservation and were giving an unlawful order.

That's just it - he wan't leaking information that could not have been given "over the counter". This was stuff that was already being shared with NATO allies. This was about getting the Soviets to sign off on a test ban treaty - WITHOUT losing too much advantage. That made it a perfect game of Nash's Equilibrium. Had the U2 not been scuttled, the Test Ban Treaty goes ahead AND the US maintains an advantages because the radar info being shared was already obsolete. They had the next generation ready to roll out.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 6:33 pm

greg parker wrote:
beowulf wrote:OK after that data dump, I'd just point out the rest of your theory could be correct, if we amend it to reflect that instead of being recruited and trained by a hypothetical corps he was recruited and trained by the actual Marine Corps.

Bear in mind, all legal authority to classify and declassify secret information rests with the president who delegates authority and set other rules by executive order. Just as (reportedly, at least) Queen Elizabeth doesn't have a passport, Barack Obama doesn't have a security clearance-- he's the guy who grants all security clearances.  So a secret mission to leak data contrary to the president's wishes would not actually be legal.

Oh, I'm with you on that. We're talking Ike's "Secret Team" here. It was very much with the president's wishes. And there was an exchange agreement which made it legal to share such things as "new" technology through certain specified avenues OR "by any other method agreed upon". It would explain why he was never charged, and would be a good way of of circumventing objections from the administration and Pentagon's many hawks.

The signing of this exchange agreement coincided with Oswald's "defection".

Trust me. Radar was THE key issue in getting the Soviets on board for a test ban treaty - regardless of what anyone else may have written or said. 


As a practical matter, a young Marine following orders in that case would never be prosecuted for it.  The order isn't intrinsically wrong, like a command to shoot POWs. A soldier ordered to leak information by his superior officers would have no way of knowing THEY were off the reservation and were giving an unlawful order.

That's just it - he wan't leaking information that could not have been given "over the counter" and was already being shared with NATO allies. This was about getting the Soviets to sign off on a test ban treaty - WITHOUT losing too much advantage. That made it a perfect game of Nash's Equilibrium. Had the U2 not been scuttled, the Test Ban Treaty goes ahead AND the US maintains an advantages because the radar info being shared was already obsolete. They had the next generation ready to roll out.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by beowulf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 9:26 pm

Its an open question though whether the secret team was working for Eisenhower or the Dulles brothers (Allen at CIA, John Foster at State for most of Ike's presidency).  Ike was not happy that U2 was shot down, leaving him humiliated at his summit with Khrushchev.


Not quite related, but I stumbled over this wiki page for Harvard educated (& Rhodes Scholar) psychology professor George Estabrooks, who was something of a hypnotist. Funny, this Jones fellow he mentions reminds me of someone for some reason.


"During World War II, I worked this technique with a vulnerable Marine lieutenant I’ll call Jones. Under the watchful eye of Marine intelligence I split his personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a 'normal' working Marine, became entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed enthusiastically by communist cells, and was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge by the Corps (which was in on the plot) and became a card-carrying party member. All I had to do was hypnotize the whole man, get in touch with Jones B, the loyal American, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist camp."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Estabrooks

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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

Post by greg parker on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 9:54 pm

beowulf wrote:Its an open question though whether the secret team was working for Eisenhower or the Dulles brothers (Allen at CIA, John Foster at State for most of Ike's presidency).  Ike was not happy that U2 was shot down, leaving him humiliated at his summit with Khrushchev.
Exactly. Ike was not happy at all. My understanding - and if you're aware otherwise - please correct me - is that the Special Team used Marine Reserves on occasions. In this instance, they also, I believe, used existing CIA programs for support. So, in this scenario, CIA was not running the show, but could well have used what they learned to turn the tables.


"During World War II, I worked this technique with a vulnerable Marine lieutenant I’ll call Jones. Under the watchful eye of Marine intelligence I split his personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a 'normal' working Marine, became entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed enthusiastically by communist cells, and was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge by the Corps (which was in on the plot) and became a card-carrying party member. All I had to do was hypnotize the whole man, get in touch with Jones B, the loyal American, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist camp."
I have a little about Estabrooks in my manuscript, and did come across this. My summation of him? 

Estabrooks seemed to give interviews and write pieces on what would be highly classified materials on splitting personalities and on hypno-programming of agents all too freely and these later tales should be taken with a grain of salt; a deliberate ploy to discredit the work actually done in these areas by positioning the claims inside the mythos of the tabloid press. 



_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: LHO's Parental Enlistment Consent Form

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