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The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

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The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by ianlloyd on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 5:24 pm

The "Prayer Man" thread has meandered somewhat but has led to some significant findings (IMO) regarding the supposed 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. I feel it should have a thread of its own and, if everyone's in agreement, maybe admin or the mods can relocate the posts relating to the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter to here so that the discussion can continue on an appropriate thread and not lead Prayer Man down the wrong path (so to speak)?

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by greg parker on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 1:01 pm

bump

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Guest on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 1:17 pm

Dunno i'm a n00b 'kay

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:26 pm

Can someone please list these "miraculous new discoveries" about the 2nd floor encounter (or lack thereof)?

And... if Oswald wasn't in the second floor lunchroom, then where was he?

(You realize this blow his alibi, right?) Smile

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by greg parker on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:42 pm

No Brian. It blows away how his alibi was twisted by the DPD. He never said he ate on the second floor lunch room - despite what you've read. 

And given the social structure, I doubt he would have been encouraged to. That lunch room was for office workers - not laborers. 

Moreover, testimony of others indicates his normal habit was to eat in the domino room and g upstairs to get a coke to have downstairs with his lunch, or leave the building.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:58 pm

The testimony of Geneva Hine destroys Reid as a witness and smacks of a quickly contrived method of establishing the lunchroom incident. All Reid has to do is to recall seeing Oswald do something he likely did on a number of occasions, grab a coke. The Hine and Reid stories are mutually exclusive.

Interestingly I found only once reference to the conundrum on google, it was a one line post from 
Sean in 2009. It simply said, why didn't Hine see Oswald?

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Guest on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 3:28 pm

I'm at a loss. Wasn't the Coke machine in the second floor lunchroom?

And Colin, are you sure Oswald was on the fourth floor (Baker said "third or fourth", yes?)

Conversely, if it was the fourth, why didn't Baker see the women?

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 6:56 pm

Looking at the testimonys of Reid and Hine they are mutually exclusive. I have to say that I do not believe Reid saw Oswald crossing the office floor as she claimed.

I find it amazing the a google search only identified Sean's comment regarding this conundrum. The official story has all the hallmarks of Givens' bogus cigarette trip.

If Baker saw someone on the 3rd or 4th floor who was not Oswald, I dont' believe anyone who claimed to have seen Oswald in the TSBD after the shots was telling the truth.

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by greg parker on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 7:08 pm

Colin Crow wrote:Looking at the testimonys of Reid and Hine they are mutually exclusive. I have to say that I do not believe Reid saw Oswald crossing the office floor as she claimed.

I find it amazing the a google search only identified Sean's comment regarding this conundrum. The official story has all the hallmarks of Givens' bogus cigarette trip.

If Baker saw someone on the 3rd or 4th floor who was not Oswald, I dont' believe anyone who claimed to have seen Oswald in the TSBD after the shots was telling the truth.
Exactly!

Reid was Truly's secretary or some such? I'm willing to risk being called on guilt by association here.  What the?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:27 pm

We had a lengthy thread that evolved into the Hine/
Reid paradox on Duncan's forum. The genesis was a few pages earlier but for those interested you can pick up the jist from this page....

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,10919.300.html

All the lone nutters could come up with was Hine knocking on the doors for a ridiculous amount of time or having an unreported toilet stop.

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 2:19 am

There's another fellow (named Otis Williams?) who claims he ran directly up the back stairs to the fourth floor. He apparently didn't see anyone either (not Oswald, and not Baker or Truly).

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by Redfern on Thu 21 Aug 2014, 4:51 pm

nonsqtr wrote:There's another fellow (named Otis Williams?) who claims he ran directly up the back stairs to the fourth floor. He apparently didn't see anyone either (not Oswald, and not Baker or Truly).
In her testimony, Geneva Hine suggests Otis Williams came back up to the second floor with others.

She also casts doubt on Geraldean Reid's story.


Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
 Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by beowulf on Fri 22 Aug 2014, 4:42 am

Arnold Rowland apparently saw Eddie Piper on the 6th floor just minutes before the shooting, at the same time Oswald was seen on first floor by Carolyn Arnold (and immediately after the shooting by Truly if first day newspaper accounts are any guide).  Perhaps Dallas PD and/or FBI did a switcheroo: In the official story Piper is placed on the first floor, near the front door and Oswald is placed on the 6th floor (before escaping down the back stairs).

What makes me think this is an odd comment by Baker in an interview with Barry Ernest:
"During a December, 2004 telephone interview, the now-retired Baker told me when he and building manager Roy Truly reached the rear of the Depository on their way to the stairs, he noticed an 'older, large black man sitting toward the back stairs, near the elevators there. Baker said the man was the only person he saw in that area. When he asked Truly about him, Truly said the man was an employee and was 'slightly retarded'."

The odd thing is this exchange on the first floor is pretty much exactly what the official story has Baker and Truly saying to each other on the 2nd floor about Oswald (taking into account that the racist Truly likely would've described all of his black employees as slow-witted). Yet, except for this 2004 conversation, there's no other record of Truly vouching for a second employee. Indeed, they probably did only have this conversation once.

What if it was Piper that Baker and Truly ran into on the 3rd or 4th floor? Dallas PD or the FBI (who were at police HQ almost immediately) could have fed Officer Baker a description of Oswald and told to use it in his affidavit instead of that of the elderly black man he saw (and Truly vouched for). Meanwhile to disappear Piper's all too vivid eyewitness account (which probably included a sniper team flashing Secret Service credentials) Piper was instructed to say he was on the first floor, looking out a window near the front door.  If Oswald/PM was, in fact, stopped by Baker at the front door, it was just to ask directions, and Truly really did vouch for just one employee-- someone by the backstairs.  Whether that employee was white or black and on either the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th floor (or even actually an employee) is uncertain.

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by beowulf on Fri 29 Aug 2014, 8:18 am

When he asked Truly about him, Truly said the man was an employee and was 'slightly retarded'."
Was thinking abut this again today. I still think Truly only vouched for one employee but its more likely to be Jack Dougherty on the 4th floor than Eddie Piper (or for that matter, Troy West) on the 1st floor. After all, Truly would tell the Secret Service that, "although [Jack] Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded". I'm very skeptical Truly would tell Baker someone was an employee who actually wasn't, it'd leave him incredibly exposed to prosecution as an accomplice as soon as the lie fell apart (i.e. as soon as the cops took a head count of the real employees), so the odds are whoever Baker ran into really did work in the TSBD.

Baker passed Oswald at the front door but had no reason to suspect him, then he passed a black man (either Piper or West) near the elevator, again, too soon after the shooting to be suspect. He then sees a white man on the 3rd or 4th floor. That person was close enough to the roof (where Baker thought the shots had come from) to be suspicious so he asks Truly about him. Truly vouches that he's an employee and says he's retarded-- just as he would tell the Secret Service Dougherty was retarded.

If it was Dougherty on the 4th floor, Baker could have been ordered to change his physical description in the affidavit to make it sound more like Oswald. Of course we don't really know what Dougherty looked like,  the truth could be even simpler-- perhaps Dougherty really was 5'9", 165 lb, with dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket that day. The WC lawyers knew there was something fishy about Dougherty, but since Baker and Truly had by then moved the alleged Oswald meeting to the 2nd floor, they didn't suspect that he could be the employee by the back stairs Baker had run into.
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t176-jack-edwin-dougherty


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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

Post by greg parker on Fri 29 Aug 2014, 11:11 am

beowulf wrote:When he asked Truly about him, Truly said the man was an employee and was 'slightly retarded'."
Was thinking abut this again today. I still think Truly only vouched for one employee but its more likely to be Jack Dougherty on the 4th floor than Eddie Piper (or for that matter, Troy West) on the 1st floor. After all, Truly would tell the Secret Service that, "although [Jack] Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded". I'm very skeptical Truly would tell Baker someone was an employee who actually wasn't, it'd leave him incredibly exposed to prosecution as an accomplice as soon as the lie fell apart (i.e. as soon as the cops took a head count of the real employees), so the odds are whoever Baker ran into really did work in the TSBD.

Baker passed Oswald at the front door but had no reason to suspect him, then he passed a black man (either Piper or West) near the elevator, again, too soon after the shooting to be suspect. He then sees a white man on the 3rd or 4th floor. That person was close enough to the roof (where Baker thought the shots had come from) to be suspicious so he asks Truly about him. Truly vouches that he's an employee and says he's retarded-- just as he would tell the Secret Service Dougherty was retarded.

If it was Dougherty on the 4th floor, Baker could have been ordered to change his physical description in the affidavit to make it sound more like Oswald. Of course we don't really know what Dougherty looked like,  the truth could be even simpler-- perhaps Dougherty really was 5'9", 165 lb, with dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket that day.  The WC lawyers knew there was something fishy about Dougherty, but since Baker and Truly had by then moved the alleged Oswald meeting to the 2nd floor, they didn't suspect that he could be the employee by the back stairs Baker had run into.
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t176-jack-edwin-dougherty

Mr B, I can accept is may have been Dougherty. My main positions all along has that it wasn't Oswald and that Baker's initial affidavit was an honest one. That doesn't leave too many options: Dougherty or? Though I have leaned toward the "or", I am going to attempt yet again to obtain a 1963 description of JED.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: The Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter

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