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what we are witnessing...

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:18 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Are we wasting our time?

I guess it wouldn't hurt to point out the implicitly paternalistic attitude: only these two HEROES can save us -- they have the magic name, the blessed bloodlines, the royal lineage as in days of olde. Unless they come to our rescue all hope is lost.

That sounds like defeatism, aside from being all dreamy about aristocracy. Anti-democratic in other words. And I can't see why the opinions of 2 Researchers should be taken as much more than 2 guys' opinions, unless of course the Researchers' Authority is such that anything in their heads which proceedeth forth from thence into spoken or written word must be Truth Absolute, Word of God, etc, etc.

My own attitude is that the Kennedy family has already done its fair share in the world.

A boxing analogy works well for the defeatism (throwing in the towel), but it's not just that the fight is fixed in favor of the chump -- the chump owns the arena, the broadcasting and advertising rights, the "journalistic" coverage, and so on.

Maybe it's more like trying to knock down a wall -- you just keep on hammering. I've gotten to the point where I like it that way. (But then I'm probably too dreamy about going up against really long odds, sounds kinda heroic, y'know.)

So no, Stan, I don't think we're wasting our time. The fuckin wall's gotta come down some day.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 1:30 pm

greg parker wrote:I take your point, Paul - and it's not without some truth. 

Let's put it another way... it is the very definition of madness to keep throwing the same evidence and theories at "the champ" and expect a different result at some stage. He's immune to it - inoculated by a compliant press over 50 years. 

But it's a different world now with the internet. And we have lots of "new" facts at our disposal.
It'll be seen for what it really is. I am confident of that. But fuck it frustrates.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 2:07 pm

Dan Wenceslas Dunn wrote:Maybe it's more like trying to knock down a wall -- you just keep on hammering. I've gotten to the point where I like it that way. (But then I'm probably too dreamy about going up against really long odds, sounds kinda heroic, y'know.)

So no, Stan, I don't think we're wasting our time. The fuckin wall's gotta come down some day.
Yes it it does, Dan.


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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by steely dan on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 4:20 pm

greg parker wrote:I take your point, Paul - and it's not without some truth. 

Let's put it another way... it is the very definition of madness to keep throwing the same evidence and theories at "the champ" and expect a different result at some stage. He's immune to it - inoculated by a compliant press over 50 years. 

But it's a different world now with the internet. And we have lots of "new" facts at our disposal.

It would be fascinating to see the reaction a filmed version of the main PM thread points would make on Youtube. As for the WCR 50th, it will be the same old faces on Nat Geo.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Guest on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 4:26 pm

greg parker wrote:
Frankie Vegas wrote:Me too! We need one of these coming out every year. Like an encyclopedia of sorts...
An overview of the years findings.
Excellent idea, and one that should be acted upon.

It is being acted upon.

It takes a while to build an infrastructure like that.

Shoulda been done years ago.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 4:35 pm

steely dan wrote:It would be fascinating to see the reaction a filmed version of the main PM thread points would make on Youtube. As for the WCR 50th, it will be the same old faces on Nat Geo.
I like how you think, steely. I think we need to embrace video much more. A Prayer Man video would be awesome (are you reading this, Mr. Sean Murphy?). As good as Jim DiEugenio's Plaque series is, I think it would be more effective if done on video. Videos are so "today." The "50 Reasons for 50 Years" series on BOR wouldn't have cut it as a series of articles.
 
If we're going to reach a new generation of people we need to use the media they prefer, or more of it anyway.
 
:: kicking the soapbox back under the bed ::


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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 4:38 pm

Stan Dane wrote:As good as Jim DiEugenio's Plaque series is, I think it would be more effective if done on video.

I agree.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by steely dan on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 5:02 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
steely dan wrote:It would be fascinating to see the reaction a filmed version of the main PM thread points would make on Youtube. As for the WCR 50th, it will be the same old faces on Nat Geo.
I like how you think, steely. I think we need to embrace video much more. A Prayer Man video would be awesome (are you reading this, Mr. Sean Murphy?). As good as Jim DiEugenio's Plaque series is, I think it would be more effective if done on video. Videos are so "today." The "50 Reasons for 50 Years" series on BOR wouldn't have cut it as a series of articles.
 
If we're going to reach a new generation of people we need to use the media they prefer, or more of it anyway.
 
:: kicking the soapbox back under the bed ::
Stan, i remember we had a similar exchange regarding the WC plaques. The problem, as i see it, is that no matter how good your argument, only presenting it on JFK forums will seriously limit your audience. The MSM wont touch any dissenting view with a barge pole. Done right maybe Youtube could be our MSM.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Goban Saor on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:48 pm

To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:24 pm

Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder....
Why don't you write her and tell her all that, Goban. And be sure to refer to her father as "JFK" as opposed to "President John F. Kennedy." I'm sure she'll appreciate your take on the whole matter of her own implication in her father's death.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Goban Saor on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:37 pm

Dan Wenceslas Dunn wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder....
Why don't you write her and tell her all that, Goban. And be sure to refer to her father as "JFK" as opposed to "President John F. Kennedy." I'm sure she'll appreciate your take on the whole matter of her own implication in her father's death.
As you seem to imply that what I said is wrong, Dan, I'd appreciate it if you could specify the flaws in my reasoning.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Terry W. Martin on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 12:01 am

Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
...... 
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.

Personally, I think it would be great to have the three ladies enter the mix. But I don't see that happenening until the ball is already rolling.

Unless there is a monumental groundswell by the public, I cannot see any of them stepping into the ring.

It is up to us to get the movement going. Once the movement has reached provocative proportions, they might be persuaded to step in and lead the forces. Until then, their low profile is understandable.

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We need to create a groundswell

Post by Terry W. Martin on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 12:52 am

to create a groundswell we have to start by waking people up...



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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Terry W. Martin on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 12:54 am

it would also help by tying the movement to the 50th of the WC 26 volume release...


Choke on this, Arlen Specter's spectre!

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 3:38 am

Go, Terry go!

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 3:52 am

Our government doesn't seem to be interested in "trust", only "control".

But, if we're going to talk about the anniversary of the Warren Commission, I offer this up as a typical example of that farce.

Here is Warren Commission Exhibit 371 (CE-371), an "official document" that the "officials" on the Commission thought it was important for all of us to see.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0496a.htm

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 7:12 am

Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.
Caroline Kennedy is ensconced in the establishment. Even more so today. It is, after all, the Kennedy family business. They are considered royalty and royalty has its duties and obligations to "public service".
To her, IMHO, her family's sacrifices will always remain a private matter and should be understood in those terms. Especially by those blowhard researchers who want to call on her to supply them with weapons of truth. Who the fuck do they think they are?
I've said before that engaging the Oswald sisters makes more pertinent sense. We know they have questions. Caroline Kennedy hasn't even revealed that much. June and Rachel can effectively make a concerted effort to demand another inquiry. They have more of a stake in this case than all of the researchers combined. If we are going to approach spokespeople to this thing then we must appeal to them both and offer all the supporting evidence that can be mustered.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 7:25 am

People were still dying in the late 90's because of the Kennedy thing. There were several "mysterious deaths" during the time frame of the ARRB.

The series of revelations from Sergio Arcacha Smith before he died though, should be followed up. There's a lot of juicy stuff in his last interview.

Like this, for instance:

"Regretfully, Arcacha says, his travails in New Orleans were in vain, as
Castro knew everything we were doing. He had people everywhere."

Arcacha intimates he worked directly for Bobby Kennedy. And if you're like me, and you were trying to get something done and discovered that "Castro knew everything we were doing", then for sure you'd get yourself someone on the ground who's capable of some real-time information gathering, yes?

Wouldn't you be asking yourself, "self, who are these people in New Orleans, who seem to be communicating everything we do to Castro?"

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Goban Saor on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 7:35 am

Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.
Caroline Kennedy is ensconced in the establishment. Even more so today. It is, after all, the Kennedy family business. They are considered royalty and royalty has its duties and obligations to "public service".
To her, IMHO, her family's sacrifices will always remain a private matter and should be understood in those terms. Especially by those blowhard researchers who want to call on her to supply them with weapons of truth. Who the fuck do they think they are?
I've said before that engaging the Oswald sisters makes more pertinent sense. We know they have questions. Caroline Kennedy hasn't even revealed that much. June and Rachel can effectively make a concerted effort to demand another inquiry. They have more of a stake in this case than all of the researchers combined. If we are going to approach spokespeople to this thing then we must appeal to them both and offer all the supporting evidence that can be mustered.
I'm still awaiting the flaw(s) in my reasoning to be identified. Shooting the messenger is not good enough.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 7:48 am

Goban Saor wrote:
Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.
Caroline Kennedy is ensconced in the establishment. Even more so today. It is, after all, the Kennedy family business. They are considered royalty and royalty has its duties and obligations to "public service".
To her, IMHO, her family's sacrifices will always remain a private matter and should be understood in those terms. Especially by those blowhard researchers who want to call on her to supply them with weapons of truth. Who the fuck do they think they are?
I've said before that engaging the Oswald sisters makes more pertinent sense. We know they have questions. Caroline Kennedy hasn't even revealed that much. June and Rachel can effectively make a concerted effort to demand another inquiry. They have more of a stake in this case than all of the researchers combined. If we are going to approach spokespeople to this thing then we must appeal to them both and offer all the supporting evidence that can be mustered.
I'm still awaiting the flaw(s) in my reasoning to be identified. Shooting the messenger is not good enough.
I wasn't aiming to shoot you, Goban. I don't consider you a "blowhard researcher" so I am sorry if you got caught up in that crossfire. I simply underlined my reasoning to yours because I wanted to address the same topic you respectfully brought up as a contrast.
Perhaps I should be more careful in future so please accept my apology for this time.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Goban Saor on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 8:28 am

Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:
Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.
Caroline Kennedy is ensconced in the establishment. Even more so today. It is, after all, the Kennedy family business. They are considered royalty and royalty has its duties and obligations to "public service".
To her, IMHO, her family's sacrifices will always remain a private matter and should be understood in those terms. Especially by those blowhard researchers who want to call on her to supply them with weapons of truth. Who the fuck do they think they are?
I've said before that engaging the Oswald sisters makes more pertinent sense. We know they have questions. Caroline Kennedy hasn't even revealed that much. June and Rachel can effectively make a concerted effort to demand another inquiry. They have more of a stake in this case than all of the researchers combined. If we are going to approach spokespeople to this thing then we must appeal to them both and offer all the supporting evidence that can be mustered.
I'm still awaiting the flaw(s) in my reasoning to be identified. Shooting the messenger is not good enough.
I wasn't aiming to shoot you, Goban. I don't consider you a "blowhard researcher" so I am sorry if you got caught up in that crossfire. I simply underlined my reasoning to yours because I wanted to address the same topic you respectfully brought up as a contrast.
Perhaps I should be more careful in future so please accept my apology for this time.
It’s OK, Paul. It’s very gracious of you to apologise even though though the fault was probably mine in wrongly assuming you were referring to me as a researcher. Though I can’t resist throwing in the odd hapworth into the mix, I consider myself a student rather than a researcher in these matters.

Also I may be a tad tetchy today because of minor terrestrial irritants.
 
Having thought a bit more about this, I think I need to clarify what I meant by my initial post. I was trying to define a state of affairs rather than judge or criticize Caroline Kennedy. To criticize her would be harsh and unfair given the circumstances I mentioned. If I were in her position I am not at all sure I would behave any differently to her.
 
I didn’t say she should come out and demand the investigation I referred to. What I was more or less saying is that if she did do so it would be a gamechanger.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 8:42 am

Goban Saor wrote:
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
Excellent point.

Goban, I must remind you that you are one of the Dirty Dozen (which is not limited to 12 because this is ROKC, not a stupid standalone forum), so feel free to chime in anytime. I like hearing your perspective.


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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 8:45 am

Goban Saor wrote:
Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:
Paul Klein2 wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:To continue with the boxing analogy, maybe it’s time for the women to step into the ring. The women I refer to are Caroline Kennedy and the Oswald sisters.
 
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
 
Caroline Kennedy is now a senior US Government representative as Ambassador to Japan. She is thus implicated, albeit perhaps at some remove, in her father’s murder.
 
Of course there are extenuating circumstances, the chief of which is the supreme sacrifices already made by Caroline Kennedy’s family – the apparent political martyrdom of her father, uncle and brother – not to mention the possible further martyrdom of herself, her children or other members of her extended family, should she call for the investigation that’s needed.
 
We can slug it out in the forums till the cows come home – and it’s important that that fight continues – but I doubt that anything that comes of all of that could pack a punch to match that of the Kennedy clan matriarch demanding justice.
Caroline Kennedy is ensconced in the establishment. Even more so today. It is, after all, the Kennedy family business. They are considered royalty and royalty has its duties and obligations to "public service".
To her, IMHO, her family's sacrifices will always remain a private matter and should be understood in those terms. Especially by those blowhard researchers who want to call on her to supply them with weapons of truth. Who the fuck do they think they are?
I've said before that engaging the Oswald sisters makes more pertinent sense. We know they have questions. Caroline Kennedy hasn't even revealed that much. June and Rachel can effectively make a concerted effort to demand another inquiry. They have more of a stake in this case than all of the researchers combined. If we are going to approach spokespeople to this thing then we must appeal to them both and offer all the supporting evidence that can be mustered.
I'm still awaiting the flaw(s) in my reasoning to be identified. Shooting the messenger is not good enough.
I wasn't aiming to shoot you, Goban. I don't consider you a "blowhard researcher" so I am sorry if you got caught up in that crossfire. I simply underlined my reasoning to yours because I wanted to address the same topic you respectfully brought up as a contrast.
Perhaps I should be more careful in future so please accept my apology for this time.
It’s OK, Paul. It’s very gracious of you to apologise even though though the fault was probably mine in wrongly assuming you were referring to me as a researcher. Though I can’t resist throwing in the odd hapworth into the mix, I consider myself a student rather than a researcher in these matters.

Also I may be a tad tetchy today because of minor terrestrial irritants.
 
Having thought a bit more about this, I think I need to clarify what I meant by my initial post. I was trying to define a state of affairs rather than judge or criticize Caroline Kennedy. To criticize her would be harsh and unfair given the circumstances I mentioned. If I were in her position I am not at all sure I would behave any differently to her.
 
I didn’t say she should come out and demand the investigation I referred to. What I was more or less saying is that if she did do so it would be a gamechanger.


No probs, Goban. I was referring to this and I should have made it clearer:



I understand what you are suggesting about Caroline Kennedy, and its frustrating to say the least. But it is what is, and has been so for 50 years. She has probably made peace with it all as hard as that seems.

I still think the Oswald sisters are the best bet. They have a lot to gain from another inquiry.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 8:55 am

Paul Klein2 wrote:I still think the Oswald sisters are the best bet. They have a lot to gain from another inquiry.
They have a lot less to lose.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

Post by Goban Saor on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 9:17 am

Stan Dane wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:
Caroline Kennedy is in a particularly difficult position. Ever since the HSCA found in 1979 that  JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy, the US Government has had a solemn duty to conduct a follow up investigation to find out who was involved in the conspiracy. Its failure to do so makes it an accessory after the fact.
Excellent point.

Goban, I must remind you that you are one of the Dirty Dozen (which is not limited to 12 because this is ROKC, not a stupid standalone forum), so feel free to chime in anytime. I like hearing your perspective.
Thanks again, Stan.

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Re: what we are witnessing...

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