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what we are witnessing...

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Sun 20 Oct 2013, 9:48 am
First topic message reminder :

I know the claims have been made for a very long time that witness testimony has been changed/suborned. But I honestly don't believe the case for that has ever been all that strong. Suspicion isn't evidence.

I think what we have witnessed 

here
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=1

here
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

here
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17269

& here
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t453-the-rearranged-boxes

to give just some examples, changes all that and is the bones and meat of a prima facie case that Oswald's alibi would not be permitted to stand, and wherever possible, the real story would be turned into a variation on the truth, but leaning towards his guilt.

There is, imo, no longer any justification for defending the WC findings or its methodology.

These threads, among others, contain the real story, or very close to it, about what happened just prior, during and just after the assassination.

The pity is that this story will remain buried in forums. They have no real impact on how the history is written.

It is a large part of my frustration.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Tue 26 Aug 2014, 8:17 am
I think I see where you're going with this. Laurel & Hardy - H & L. Harvey & Lee - L & H.

One with a woman with a bag - the other with a man with a bag.

One a comedy - the other a tragedy.

L & H non-identical. H & L non-identical (except in certain circumstances as required)

L & H associated with communists. H & L associated with anti-communists.

It all fits.

--------------------

The inspiration for the bag came from Minsk.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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Tue 26 Aug 2014, 11:40 am
greg parker wrote:I think I see where you're going with this. Laurel & Hardy - H & L. Harvey & Lee - L & H.

One with a woman with a bag - the other with a man with a bag.

One a comedy - the other a tragedy.

L & H non-identical. H & L non-identical (except in certain circumstances as required)

L & H associated with communists. H & L associated with anti-communists.

It all fits.

--------------------

The inspiration for the bag came from Minsk.

Yes, Greg. "It all fits."

As my pappy (non-Junker) would say: It's as clear as ditch water.

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Tue 26 Aug 2014, 11:40 am
greg parker wrote:I think I see where you're going with this. Laurel & Hardy - H & L. Harvey & Lee - L & H.

One with a woman with a bag - the other with a man with a bag.

One a comedy - the other a tragedy.

L & H non-identical. H & L non-identical (except in certain circumstances as required)

L & H associated with communists. H & L associated with anti-communists.

It all fits.

--------------------

The inspiration for the bag came from Minsk.

Yes, Greg. "It all fits."

As my pappy (non-Junker) would say: It's as clear as ditch water.

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Tue 26 Aug 2014, 1:02 pm
Despite his non-Junker status, your pappy sounds like a wise old dude.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 7:24 am
Terry W. Martin wrote:Goban,

I know what you're trying to say but just because "the government" did or did not do something does not necessarily make everyone employed by the government an accessory.

By that line of reasoning, since it is a government "of the people", then every citizen of the country is an accessory to the cover-up.

That might be true. But I do not seriously think you will win over many acolytes by pointing out the fact.
I didn’t mean to be away from the forum for so long but I was away from home for a few days and one thing led to another.
 
By way of a short reply to your point Terry, it doesn’t follow that when a corporate entity is found guilty of a crime or offence everyone employed by or associated with that entity is guilty.
 
I was thinking about writing a long reply using the Holocaust as an analogy and including references to authors such as Primo Levi, Ian Kershaw and Mark Roseman but it’s hardly necessary and anyway it would probably be in breach of the Godwin rule.
 
My excursion during the weekend included a Guinness fuelled symposium on many topics in the course of which I mentioned our discussion here and my Ms Kennedy faux pas. One normally quite astute person said that Caroline Kennedy should run for the presidency in 2016 and I don’t know if it was the Guinness or what but that struck me as a kind of ‘perfect storm’.
 
So there it is. We should organize a petition urging Caroline Kennedy to run for the presidency in 2016 with a view to, among other things, establishing an investigation to follow up on the finding of the HSCA in respect of her father’s assassination.
 
Given the manner of the gestation of this idea I fear that from an objective viewpoint it might seem quite mad but I wonder if anyone thinks it has any merit at all.

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 8:27 am
Goban Saor wrote:
Terry W. Martin wrote:Goban,

I know what you're trying to say but just because "the government" did or did not do something does not necessarily make everyone employed by the government an accessory.

By that line of reasoning, since it is a government "of the people", then every citizen of the country is an accessory to the cover-up.

That might be true. But I do not seriously think you will win over many acolytes by pointing out the fact.
I didn’t mean to be away from the forum for so long but I was away from home for a few days and one thing led to another.
 
By way of a short reply to your point Terry, it doesn’t follow that when a corporate entity is found guilty of a crime or offence everyone employed by or associated with that entity is guilty.
 
I was thinking about writing a long reply using the Holocaust as an analogy and including references to authors such as Primo Levi, Ian Kershaw and Mark Roseman but it’s hardly necessary and anyway it would probably be in breach of the Godwin rule.
 
My excursion during the weekend included a Guinness fuelled symposium on many topics in the course of which I mentioned our discussion here and my Ms Kennedy faux pas. One normally quite astute person said that Caroline Kennedy should run for the presidency in 2016 and I don’t know if it was the Guinness or what but that struck me as a kind of ‘perfect storm’.
 
So there it is. We should organize a petition urging Caroline Kennedy to run for the presidency in 2016 with a view to, among other things, establishing an investigation to follow up on the finding of the HSCA in respect of her father’s assassination.
 
Given the manner of the gestation of this idea I fear that from an objective viewpoint it might seem quite mad but I wonder if anyone thinks it has any merit at all.
She'll need some work done, Goban.

How Many Times Can Caroline Kennedy Say 'You Know' in Under a Minute?


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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 10:07 am
Well it seemed like a good idea at the time...

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 12:24 pm
Goban Saor wrote:Well it seemed like a good idea at the time...
Guinness fueled symposiums are always full of good ideas, Goban. I am just surprised you remembered them the next morning. Very Happy

Its not so outrageous. We are talking about a country that voted GW twice into office so anything is possible. What would be impossible, for Caroline Kennedy if she chose to run, is to avoid comparisons to her father. I think even her brother had his own reservations about that. I can't think of a taller order in American politics.
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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 2:03 pm
In this context we may consider the Commentary on the Pogo koan, by the paranoid Zen master, Reggie:
If you find yourself among people who say they are committed to finding the truth about things, but it turns out only a few specific versions of things are approved by them, you have to try to figure out how that is different from having to accept the official versions of things, as handed down to us by the authorities in charge.

And unfortunately you may find it is evidence for the real truth: that those in charge can live with some variations in the versions of things, as long as none of it really leads anywhere and threatens their political power; and that the apparent truth-seekers -- with their own clubhouses and their own in-house authorities -- may have been expressly established to control the flow of information and the direction of all argument.

That would point to the Conspiracy Research Community itself as being a large counterintelligence operation.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."


And as it was the case with the Nazi Gestapo, building up a bad-ass reputation is much of the battle -- and why so many seem like they would rather talk about the Big Bad CIA than fuck.

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Wed 27 Aug 2014, 9:58 pm
Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:Well it seemed like a good idea at the time...
Guinness fueled symposiums are always full of good ideas, Goban. I am just surprised you remembered them the next morning. Very Happy

Its not so outrageous. We are talking about a country that voted GW twice into office so anything is possible. What would be impossible, for Caroline Kennedy if she chose to run, is to avoid comparisons to her father. I think even her brother had his own reservations about that. I can't think of a taller order in American politics.
Indeed, Paul, your penultimate post prompted me to google Caroline Kennedy interviews on youtube and she does seem to suffer in comparison with her father in political terms.

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Thu 28 Aug 2014, 1:17 am
Goban Saor wrote:Indeed, Paul, your penultimate post prompted me to google Caroline Kennedy interviews on youtube and she does seem to suffer in comparison with her father in political terms.
And this is the one human that shit-brick-for-brains Charles D says we must pin our hopes on in order to lead the huddled masses to the promised land.
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Thu 28 Aug 2014, 2:08 am
Stan Dane wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:Indeed, Paul, your penultimate post prompted me to google Caroline Kennedy interviews on youtube and she does seem to suffer in comparison with her father in political terms.
And this is the one human that shit-brick-for-brains Charles D says we must pin our hopes on in order to lead the huddled masses to the promised land.

It was in the blocks, Stan. And everyone knows Dragos don't lie!

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Fri 29 Aug 2014, 7:07 am
If the Kennedy family actually wanted the files released, Ted Kennedy was well positioned to make it happen.  He was in the US Senate for 4 decades after Dallas. If he wanted the files declassified, he could have slipped the necessary language into a bill and I doubt even one of his colleagues would have objected.  

The very fact that Ted (and Robert) seemed satisfied with the Warren Commission conclusions really did more than anything to let the murder plot go unpunished. If Jack's own brothers weren't willing to wait in the alley with a steak knife (as Garrison said he'd do if someone got away with killing his brother), you can hardly expect other senators and congressmen to show much enthusiasm in demanding all the files declassified or a second autopsy performed.
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Fri 29 Aug 2014, 7:18 am
beowulf wrote:If the Kennedy family actually wanted the files released, Ted Kennedy was well positioned to make it happen.  He was in the US Senate for 4 decades after Dallas. If he wanted the files declassified, he could have slipped the necessary language into a bill and I doubt even one of his colleagues would have objected.  

The very fact that Ted (and Robert) seemed satisfied with the Warren Commission conclusions really did more than anything than to let the murder plot go unpunished. If Jack's own brothers weren't willing to wait in the alley with a steak knife (as Garrison said he'd do if someone got away with killing his brother), you can hardly expect other senators and congressmen to show much enthusiasm in demanding all the files declassified or a second autopsy performed.
There is some comparison to be made with the Whitlam coup here. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the coup was organized by US intelligence. Yet, Whitlam himself has stuck to the script we have been handed as "official" history. More than that, he has stayed well clear of all political commentary. Yet this is a man whose government raided the offices of ASIO and threatened to close Pine Gap.

The really weird part is that the man who took his place at the top - Mal Frazier - ended up quitting the conservative party that took him there and has since become one of the great voices of dissent.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Fri 29 Aug 2014, 8:35 am
beowulf wrote:If the Kennedy family actually wanted the files released, Ted Kennedy was well positioned to make it happen.  He was in the US Senate for 4 decades after Dallas. If he wanted the files declassified, he could have slipped the necessary language into a bill and I doubt even one of his colleagues would have objected.  

The very fact that Ted (and Robert) seemed satisfied with the Warren Commission conclusions really did more than anything to let the murder plot go unpunished. If Jack's own brothers weren't willing to wait in the alley with a steak knife (as Garrison said he'd do if someone got away with killing his brother), you can hardly expect other senators and congressmen to show much enthusiasm in demanding all the files declassified or a second autopsy performed.
Fair point, Beowulf.
 
I previously disagreed with you about Robert Kennedy in this regard but since reading James DiEugenio’s account in Destiny Betrayed of the part played by RFK’s sidekick Walter Sheridan in sabotaging Garrison’s investigation and re-reading Brothers by David Talbot, I’m more inclined to agree with you.

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:32 pm
PS. Having thought further about it, it now seems to me that what I said in the preceding post was wrong.
 
It is not the responsibility of the victims to redress a crime that has gone unpunished because of the complicity of a wide array of powerful forces including the US government.
 
To suggest that it is the responsibility of the victims to redress such a crime is to blame them for the sins of the many, which is a form of scapegoating.

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Wed 03 Sep 2014, 1:43 am
"It is not the responsibility of the victims to redress a crime that has gone unpunished..."

Its like Theodore Roosevelt said, "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."

We can't expect a child or even a typical adult to be able to do much to avenge the death of a sibling. Once the crime is brought to the attention of authorities, whether justice is meted out depends almost solely on the actions of public servants.
However here we have a case where the surviving brothers of the victim ARE public servants-- namely, the Attorney General and a US Senator. I would suggest that with what they had and where they were, Robert and Ted could have done a hell of a lot more to seek justice for their brother.
By their flinching from waiting in the alley with the proverbial steak knife, they didn't just let down the brother who loved them, they let down the American people who employed them.
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Wed 03 Sep 2014, 3:42 am
I have lost sight of the wood for the trees along the way here but I don’t want to be too hard on myself because even Greg Parker has been known to make a mistake! Instead I will try to refocus on the essentials of the matter as I see them.
 
Strictly speaking, Beowulf, you are correct. As senior public servants, Robert and Ted Kennedy should have done everything in their power to seek justice for the assassination of their brother. However, such a judgment is simplistic in my view, given the overall context that needs to be considered.
 
In the case of Robert Kennedy, for example, when we discussed this issue about a year ago I wrote the following:
 
‘If RFK knew the assassination was a coup d'état he also knew his authority as attorney general was worthless as far as investigating the coup d'état was concerned. The diabolical entities who murdered the ostensibly most powerful man in the world to seize power for themselves were hardly likely to allow a subordinate, now isolated, call them to account. When you murder the US president other murders after that are matters of mere routine detail – as the pattern of 1960s US political assassinations, including that of RFK himself, seems to illustrate.’
 
I still believe in the validity of that argument. It follows from that argument that Robert Kennedy was almost certainly correct in his judgment that short of his being president the only effect of his seeking redress for his brother’s assassination would be the targeting of himself by the assassins. And so it apparently came to pass.
 
If that holds true for Robert Kennedy as attorney general, it certainly holds true for Ted Kennedy who, as only one of a hundred senators, was small fry in comparison.
 
And that leads back to my thesis that (a) it has been the responsibility of the US government since 1979 to follow up on the HSCA finding that there was a conspiracy involved in the JFK assassination by establishing a judicial enquiry to find out who was involved and (b) insofar as the US government has failed to establish such an enquiry, it is an accessory after the fact to the assassination.
 
The primary responsibility in this regard rests with the president because no other public servant has anywhere near the kind of power or authority required to initiate such action.
 
Blaming the Kennedys is a distraction from the real problem, the failure of the US government and primarily the US president to take the required action.
 
Also, of course, it is immoral to blame the victim(s) in any situation.

_________________
All is but a woven web of guesses. (Xenophanes)

The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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Wed 03 Sep 2014, 4:14 am
Goban Saor wrote:I have lost sight of the wood for the trees along the way here but I don’t want to be too hard on myself because even Greg Parker has been known to make a mistake! Instead I will try to refocus on the essentials of the matter as I see them.

... even Greg Parker made a mistake? Whoa! (But then, he is only a mere mortal like the rest of us here.)
 
Blaming the Kennedys is a distraction from the real problem, the failure of the US government and primarily the US president to take the required action.
 

I concur, Goban. If that's worth anything because I too have made a few mistakes about this case.

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Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:08 am
Terry W. Martin wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:I have lost sight of the wood for the trees along the way here but I don’t want to be too hard on myself because even Greg Parker has been known to make a mistake! Instead I will try to refocus on the essentials of the matter as I see them.

... even Greg Parker made a mistake? Whoa! (But then, he is only a mere mortal like the rest of us here.)
 
Blaming the Kennedys is a distraction from the real problem, the failure of the US government and primarily the US president to take the required action.
 

I concur, Goban. If that's worth anything because I too have made a few mistakes about this case.
From one who could write a book on making personal mistakes, I concur as well.
 
I don't blame the Kennedys. You must pick the right time to fight your battles. Robert knew this but he was eliminated before he had the chance to demonstrate his values and convictions. Ted lacked the qualities of his brothers. I tried to like him over the years, but he showed me that he was just a hedonistic opportunist.
 
This is why I hate family dynasties in politics. It assumes things are granted simply by birth. Paul recently pointed out the number of times Caroline Kennedy said "you know" in a short exchange. Why should she have a leg up on other better qualified people for a job?
 
I know I'm being naively idealistic here, but I still cling to the American idea that no individual is better than another simply because of who his parents are. That's why I chafe at the thought that our hopes rest solely on RFK Jr. and Caroline.
 
PS: In many ways, the loss of Robert Kennedy was a bigger personal blow to me than was the loss of JFK because I was older and understood/loved his politics. All we ended up with was Nixon.
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Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:34 am
Yes, Terry, even Homer – and Charles Drago, though I find it hard to believe – nods.
 
We can’t be too forgiving of ourselves or others as we try to make sense of, well, just about anything.
 
Socrates said the wisest man is he who knows he knows nothing and he may have been not too far off the mark.
 
But what do I know.

And Stan, I agree with you about dynasties, nepotism and all of that. It’s the antithesis of what democracy is all about as far as I’m concerned, which is equality.

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The truth. No; by nature man is more afraid of the truth than of death...For man is a social animal – only in the herd is he happy. It is all one to him whether it is the profoundest nonsense or the greatest villainy – he feels completely at ease with it, so long as it is the view of the herd, or the action of the herd, and he is able to join the herd. (Soren Kierkegaard)

So let us not talk falsely now. The hour is getting late. (Bob Dylan)
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what we are witnessing... - Page 11 Empty Re: what we are witnessing...

Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:50 am
... even Greg Parker made a mistake?
 
Give me a hammer and a nail, a map, a set of of instructions, a to-do list from the better half, or a recipe and I'll show you how easy it is...
(the mistake part, that is)

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