Choose Search Type
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» The Facts about Connally's Wounds
Today at 11:23 am by Paul Francisco Paso

» ROKC Lampoon
Today at 10:12 am by Stan Dane

» What strange affidavits these are!
Yesterday at 11:43 pm by Ed. Ledoux

»  How Jack Ruby's Entry Could Have Been Coordinated
Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:59 pm by Vinny

» JFK Conference
Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:55 pm by Vinny

» Kennedys and King website
Sat 03 Dec 2016, 6:05 pm by Paul Francisco Paso

» Kent Courtney
Fri 02 Dec 2016, 11:47 pm by Hasan Yusuf

» a ramble in and around Pine St, NO
Fri 02 Dec 2016, 11:45 pm by Hasan Yusuf

» Anatomy Of A Second Floor Encounter
Fri 02 Dec 2016, 11:01 pm by barto

Log in

I forgot my password

Social bookmarking

Social bookmarking Digg  Social bookmarking Delicious  Social bookmarking Reddit  Social bookmarking Stumbleupon  Social bookmarking Slashdot  Social bookmarking Furl  Social bookmarking Yahoo  Social bookmarking Google  Social bookmarking Blinklist  Social bookmarking Blogmarks  Social bookmarking Technorati  

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

RSS feeds


Yahoo! 
MSN 
AOL 
Netvibes 
Bloglines 


Affiliates
free forum
 



LHO and Russian things

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Thu 08 Apr 2010, 9:44 pm

I would like to discuss 2 issues regarding LHO and Russian things scratch

1. Various sources claims various level of LHO's ability to speak (write, read) Russian. For example, some Russian sources claim LHO even was almost unable to communicate in Russian, and thus communicate mainly with English speaking people during his Minsk period. While other Russian sources claim he spoke quite well, only with slight accent, considered to be man from Baltics (where I am from), not from America. This point has been approved by Marina (however, I do not think Marina in 1960 could be expert able to detect accents of people while they are speaking Russian, especially, if she had not been in Baltics herself).

Anyway, Russian language contains sounds, or phonetics, not present in English pronouncation of sounds. For example - English born people can not accurately pronouce such sounds as:
- `T` in word `Putin`;
- `L` and first `N` in word `Lenin`;
- `D` in word `Vladimir`.
(on other way, Russians and Baltic people have great problems while pronouncing English sound `th` Smile ).

Baltic people, except Estonians, can pronounce those Russian sounds, since there are similar sounds in our languages.

American sources differs between each other as well.

So the problem is actual ability of LHO to speak and write Russian. I haven't find credible data on it, however, I would like to see Russian text, written by Oswald or recordings of his Russian speaking, to detect his skills by myself (I know Russian good enough).

2. What does mean `White Russians` - people from Belarus (name of country means `White Russia`), or those anti-communist, noble Russians who fled Russia after Revolution of 1917 and Civil War?

If the last - then there is issue with assassination attempt of gen. Walker. Anti-communistic, Tzarist Russians won't be glad for that, especially if they knew LHO was the left symphatizer. However, it is believed George De Moehrenshildt asked Lee `How did you miss Walker?` - real anti-communistic, Tzarist noble Russian should tip off police in this situation...

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Fri 09 Apr 2010, 4:49 pm

Thank you!

If Oswald was some type of agent, it makes some sense that he would pretend not to speak Russian very well while living in Russia. The doctors who took care of him after he cut his wrist wrote a report saying that he said he could not understand them, but then give logical responses anyway. Seems he was in some doubt in the hospital as to whether he should carry on the pretense of not speaking/understanding Russian, given that any misunderstandings might mean a longer period in the psychiatric ward.

Here is the so-called Walker note
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0013a.htm

Here is a note he sent Marina while they were still living in Russia
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0109a.htm

If you can, maybe you could comment on whether the Walker note shows more or less skill than the earlier note?

You make another good point about the Walker shooting and George De MOhrenschildt's comment. My own belief is that the attempted assassination was a publicity stunt and Oswald may or may not have been involved in it. The note does not mention any particular incident, and it may relate to something entirely different. If it had been a real attempt by Oswald, I think you are right - someone of George's background would be expected to go to the police.

Re the meaning of "White Russian" - I was hoping that Wiki mmight clear it up, but it puts forward several theories of what it means.

I think however, in terms of the Cold war, there is little doubt that White Russians identified themselves as Anti-Communist Belorussian warriors.

I am grateful for whatever light you can shed on the matters you raise.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 10 Apr 2010, 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Fri 09 Apr 2010, 6:24 pm

Walker note contains more mistakes than `While in Russia` one (however, I was able only to read first and half of second paragraph, other text is too blured to be understable).

Walker note certainly is written by non-Russian, while `While in Russia` one only shows few elements indicating the Russian in not mother language of author. My conclusion is both notes in terms of grammar and orthography is not written by the same person.

I have heard rumors claiming Ruth Paine knew Russian better than Oswald and he became mad when he was not able to understand conversation in Russian between Ruth and Marina. I find this untrue - author of both notes should know Russian good enough to be able understand conversation, even if his own speaking skills are not so great.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Sat 10 Apr 2010, 7:20 am

Is this "while in Russia" note easier to read?
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0097a.htm

What you have said about the so-called Walker note may indicate it was forged. It was not found by police during any of their searches. It was handed in by Ruth Paine on December 2nd - after Oswald had been accused of the Walker assassination by a German newspaper.

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Sun 11 Apr 2010, 3:16 pm

I will prepare detailed analysis of all notes presented to make my assessment more argumented, in style of scientific approach and thus less subjective, but it will take some time to complete such analysis.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Sun 11 Apr 2010, 7:18 pm

More examples of Oswald's Russian writing. Some may not be entirely legible.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0107b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0109a.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0110b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0115b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0116a.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0118b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0124a.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0125b.htm

Examples of Ruth Paine's Russian writing:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0144a.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0151b.htm

Looking forward to seeing your results.

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Walker note

Post by 9K116 on Mon 12 Apr 2010, 9:30 pm

About my methodology: I will rewrite it in Russian as it is (and as I can read it), and then I will give a version, how the same sentence should look if written correctly (or at least more correctly); I also will mark mistakes with bold. If needed, I also will give verbatim translation to show where way of expression is incorrect. Here also I would to remark that WC translation given under each note, while is correct in terms giving the meaning of text, however, it does not reflect `clumziness` of language and idiomatic mistakes.


Walker note, Chapter 1:
Эта клуч почтовый ящику почтам главнем, находиться городу, на улице ERVAY тот же улице где апека где ты всегда стояла. 4 блоков от апека на эту улицу к почтаму там наидёш наш ящику. Я платил за ящику прошем месяце, так ты не переживаеш об этом.
Now, the more correct version: Это ключ к почтовому ящику в главном почтамте, который находится в городе, на улице ERVAY - та же улица, где аптека, где ты всегда ждала. 4 кварталов от аптеки на той же улице к почтамту ты найдешь наш ящик. Я заплатил за ящик в прошлом месяце, так что не волнуйся об этом.

So, if translate original text in English, keeping its actual meaning, it would sound something like this: "This is key mailbox main post office located city, on ERVAY street same street where is drugstore where you always stood. 4 blocks from drugstore this street to main post office there you'll find our mailbox. I did pay for mailbox last month, so you are not emoting about it."

I would like to remark most significant mistakes:
- lack of equivalents of English words `to`, `for`, `of` and `in` in original text;
- writing `stood` instead of `waited`, as it should be semantically;
- there is no word `блок` in Russian, if referring to city blocks. In Russian this meaning is expressed by word `квартал`. However, author uses `блок`, and it is nothing but russified English word.
- Author uses incorrect expression in very end of chapter. It is obviuos he wanted to say: `so you should not worry about it`, however he actually said: `so you are not emoting about it`. I.e., his choose of word is wrong - the word used by author translates in English as `emote`.


Walker note, Chapter 2:
Посылай посольстве информацию что со мной случилось и так же отрезай из газета (если в газета что-нибудь о мне пишет). Я думаю что посольство быстрее тебе поможит когда знало всё.
Now, as the same should sound if written correctly: Посылай посольстве информацию, что со мной случилось, так же посылай вырезки из газеты (если в газете будут чего-нибудь обо мне писать). Я думаю, что посольство тебе быстрее поможет, если будет знать больше.

However, this one chapter is better than previous, beggining of sentence is very good, in general there problems with text just before brackets. Obviously, author wanted to say: "send cuttings from newspapers to Embassy, too", however he actually said: "cut from newspaper, too", and `cut` in his sentence is verb, not noun. I am not sure, how significant is this difference in English, but in Russian it is.


Walker note, Chapter 3:
Я платил за дом на 2ои число так не переживаеш об этом.
Rescript: Я заплатил за дом 2го числа, так что не волнуйся об этом.

Minor errors, however, mistake from chapter 1 with wrong word choice (`emote` instead of `worry`) reccurs here.


Walker note, Chapter 4:
За води и газ тоже платил недавно.
За воду и газ тоже заплатил недавно.

This one is really nice, only one mistake of orthography, however stylisticly clumsy (by the way, like other sentences, too). I guess in this case WC translation is good, stating `Recently I also paid for water and gas` - the very correct form of English should be `I also paid for water and gas recently`, right?


Walker note, Chapter 5:
Возможно что денги с работу будет, они посылает нашу ящику на почтам. Поидеш банк и
Возможно, что деньги с работы поступят, их посылает в наш ящик на почтамте. Пойдешь в банк и.

Last sentence never ends on this page. The end of first sentence of original text verbatim means very close to: `they send our mailbox to main post office`. The very last sentence verbatim reads `Go bank and`. Laughing

I will continue with other notes asap.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Tue 13 Apr 2010, 8:19 am

I don't want to interrupt the flow of your work too much, but just wanted to say that this amply shows the types of mistakes you originally indicated can be seen in the Walker letter. That the translater for the WC "cleaned" up the writing is also new information (as far as I'm aware).

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

While in Russia note, October 22, 1961

Post by 9K116 on Tue 13 Apr 2010, 6:59 pm

Greg, I think WC translation in general is ok - the aim of translation was to give content of text not to analyse grammatic and expressional mistakes. So far there is ok with WC translations.
Let's continue with `While in Russia note` (October 22, 1961).
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0109a.htm

WIR@Oct 22, 1961, Chapter 1:
Моя милая девочка!
Сегодня я получил твой открытку, спасибо милая, только мне не нравиться, что ты болтаеш что предчуствуеш что ты меня потеряеш, ты меня никогда не будеш потерять и всё!
With correction of mistakes: Моя милая девочка! Сегодня я получил твою открытку, спасибо милая, только мне не нравиться, что ты говоришь, что имеешь предчуствие, что ты меня потеряешь. Ты никогда меня не потеряешь и всё!

Minor mistakes and 2 wrong choices of words or expressions (author uses word closer to `chatting` rather than `talking`, and he says something like `I don't like your chatting that you are anticipating of loosing me`, instead of `I don't like your talking that you have feeling of loosing me`, what he obviusly was trying to say.

Another thing is using of commas, I have feeling this author uses commas more correctly than author or Walker note - most commas are missing in Walker note, and only few in this chapter.


WIR@Oct 22, 1961, Chapter 2:
Сегодня тоже получил от мама письмо и послала меня [can't read that, WC translation suggest there should be `several`, but I do not recognize that word as similar] книгами. Также она говорит что ты должна учиться по-английский говорить.
Сегодня тоже получил от мамы письмо и она послала мне несколько книг. Также она говорит, что ты должна учиться говорить на английском.

This one is very good, only few minor mistakes.


WIR@Oct 22, 1961, Chapter 3:
Я написал назад что ты не хочеш и ты не успеш*. Я передал привет от тебя тоже.
*WC translator was unable to read this word, according with Exhibiton comment. I had no problems Smile However, it is written `успеш` instead of `успеешь`.
Author wrote: `I wrote back you do not want and won't make it soon enough.`
I won't show mistakes here, because it is almost correct. Language is quite clumsy, but correct enough.


WIR@Oct 22, 1961, Chapter 4:
Ты не забываеш сказать во время когда ты приедеш назад.
Ты не забывай сказать вовреме, гогда ты приедешь назад.
The rest from last chapter is unreadable because of blur. However, this is the case, when WC translation is inaccurate. It states originally to entire chapter: `You can't tell when you'll return. Tell me as early as you can. The weather here is cold and rainy.`, although the sentence I could read, states (verbatim): `You are not forgeting to tell me in time when you will return.`. Besides, I see Russian words `work` and `I won't be here` - those are not in WC translation.

So, as I stated before, I found this note containing more correct Russian than `Walker note`.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

2 more `While in Russia` notes

Post by 9K116 on Mon 19 Apr 2010, 9:22 pm

`While in Russia` note undated
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0097a.htm

Дорогая!
Как ты живёш?
Кафирь нету.
Что тебе нужное?
Ты уже кормила ребёнку [unreadable]?
Эти фото карточкий ты отдай тёте Валя, у нас ещё дома.
Кто тебе звонил сегодня?
Дорогая!
Как ты поживаешь?
Кефира нету.
Что тебе нужно?
Эти фото карточки ты отдай тёте Вале, у нас ещё дома.
Кто тебе звонил сегодня?
Some incorrect forms of sentence construction, wrong expres​sion(it's like saying `How do you live?` instead of `How are you?` or `How do you do?`).


`While in Russia` note Oct 18, 1961:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0110b.htm

Chapter 1:
Дорогая Марина
Сегодня я получил подарки от тебе, большой спасибо, они очень, очень, хороший, и я всегда буду помнить это день.
Дорогая Марина,
Сегодня я получил подарки от тебя, они очень, очень хорошие, и я всегда буду помнить этот день.

Few minor mistakes, good construction of sentence.

Chapter 2:
Ну, скоро ты приедеш назад, я буду очень рад тебя увидеть опять, так я буду тебя любить!
Correct enough, I can't really incidate mistakes here. My guess is word `снова` fits better than `опять`, however, both of those words means `again` in English, so we can only talk about stylistic correctness here (btw, in Latvian also both Russian words have the same translation).

Chapter 3:
Ну, снова спасибо для твои подарки, ты очень хорошо выбрала пластинки и книги, и рамки, я буду [unreadable] всегда держать. Пока, твой муж.
Ну, снова спасибо за твой подарки, ты очень хорошо выбрала пластинки, книги и рамки, я буду их всегда хранить. Пока, твой муж.
Really good, few minor mistakes, some wrong choice of words - `для` instead of `за` (both meaning `for` in English), and `держать` (hold) instead of `хранить` (keep). Good enough.


Last edited by 9K116 on Tue 20 Apr 2010, 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mistyping)

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Apr 2010, 3:22 pm

I'm sure a lot of people appreciate the work you're doing here.

At this stage, does your original assessment stand that the Walker note and the "in Russia" letters were not written by the same person?

If the above answer is "yes", is it possible at some stage for you to assess Ruth Paine's samples I linked to in an earlier post and compare stylistically to the Walker letter?

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Tue 20 Apr 2010, 6:03 pm

Writing of Ruth Paine is much better than anything of alleged Oswald's. Actually I can't indicate any mistakes there, language is very good. The choice of words is correct, no orthographic mistakes (as far as I can read), only slight stylistic clumziness.

So in terms of grammar and style `Walker note` is certainly closer to `While in Russia` notes.

I must admit I am not able to make so deep analysis of style which could indicate are there enough stylistic or characteristic similarities between `Walker note` and writing of Ruth Paine. Some kind of skilled linguistic expert is needed for such research.

However, now I think I can say for sure that first chapter of Walker note contains more mistakes than some of `While in Russia` notes in total. So, if they all are written by the same person, this person significantly lost his skills during 2 years period, from 1961 to 1963. Of course, I am not linguistic expert in any way, but for me Walker note does not look consistent with `While in Russia` notes, since last ones indicates better knowledge of Russian.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Apr 2010, 8:49 pm

Okay. Got it. The Walker note and the "in Russia letters" were either written by different people or, if both written by Oswald, his ability had greatly diminshed between the times of those writings (even though for lot of that time, he was still living in Minsk).

Here is some Warren Commission testimony that may interest you:

From Ruth Paine:

Senator COOPER - 1 have just one or two more. You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough. I believe you said that.

Mrs. PAINE - That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.

Senator COOPER - Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.

Mrs. PAINE - His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.

From Peter Gregory:

Mr. GREGORY - Yes, sir. It was in the middle of June 1962. On that particular morning, I was in the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me that my name was given to him by the Fort Worth Public Library. He knew I was teaching Russian at the library, that he was looking for a job as a translator or interpreter in the Russian and English languages, and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that effect. He spoke to me in English, so I suggested to him, not knowing who that was, that he might drop by my office and I would be glad to give him a test. He did. He came by the office, about 11 o'clock that morning, and I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it. He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a translator.

Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after you gave Mr. Oswald--this individual was Lee Harvey Oswald?


Mr. GREGORY - Yes, sir; that individual was Lee Harvey Oswald. After that, I asked him--I noticed that he spoke with what I thought to be a Polish accent, so I asked him if he were of Polish origin, and he stated that he was not, that he was raised in Fort Worth, Tex., but that he learned Russian in the Soviet Union where he lived for 2 1/2 or 3 years. He also told me that he married a Russian girl, and that he brought his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. I told him that I knew of no openings at the time--I didn't know of any--for services of a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address I would be glad to get in touch with him if and when I learned of any such openings. He gave me his address. He lived with his brother at that time at the western edge of Fort Worth.

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Mon 26 Jul 2010, 4:52 pm

While navigating to this forum through Google (I am doing this always, using as key words name of this topic), I found a newsgroup, where this topic and my qualification are debated.

So, what comes to my qualification: I am not any kind of special `expert` in field of languages, however, I learned Russian for 9 years while in school, from 1st to 9th grade. Since Russian was official language of Soviet Union, it was tought quite seriously. Only during highschool and due to collapse of Soviet Union, when need of Russian language decreased, it became optional subject in school and I quit formally studying it.

Besides, in mw childhood there also were Russian kids on the same street I lived, untranslated Russian movies (and in the early 90ies even Hollywood movies reached Latvia through Russia, with Russian translation), now there still are cheap Russian books and Russian Internet Smile As result, I read, listen and write in Russian fluently enough, however I speak not so fluently due to lack of practice (I have no need to SPEAK Russian in my everyday life, as well as English).

Btw, while watching Hollywood movies, I actually prefer Russian translation to completely understand speach of characters. If I watching Hollywood movies with original sound, I can miss some text lines.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Mon 26 Jul 2010, 10:47 pm

9K116 wrote:While navigating to this forum through Google (I am doing this always, using as key words name of this topic), I found a newsgroup, where this topic and my qualification are debated.

So, what comes to my qualification: I am not any kind of special `expert` in field of languages, however, I learned Russian for 9 years while in school, from 1st to 9th grade. Since Russian was official language of Soviet Union, it was tought quite seriously. Only during highschool and due to collapse of Soviet Union, when need of Russian language decreased, it became optional subject in school and I quit formally studying it.

Besides, in mw childhood there also were Russian kids on the same street I lived, untranslated Russian movies (and in the early 90ies even Hollywood movies reached Latvia through Russia, with Russian translation), now there still are cheap Russian books and Russian Internet Smile As result, I read, listen and write in Russian fluently enough, however I speak not so fluently due to lack of practice (I have no need to SPEAK Russian in my everyday life, as well as English).

Btw, while watching Hollywood movies, I actually prefer Russian translation to completely understand speach of characters. If I watching Hollywood movies with original sound, I can miss some text lines.

Thanks for the background. You are way more qualified to render an opinion on Oswald's Russian language ability than the vast majority involved in research - including myself and those who wanted to know your background.

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Tue 05 Apr 2011, 9:06 pm

:bump:

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Tue 26 Apr 2011, 6:33 pm

From `Ruth Paine Calendar` thread:
"...My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went
out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls,
saying "Yabutchski", which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as
he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before."
Maybe it is fault of man, who wrote down this testimony, but Russian word for girls is incorrect. There is no such word as `Yabutchski` in Russian - the correct word for `girls` is `Dewotchki`.

However it seems to just a small incompetence, not a big deal of conspiracy.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Sun 01 May 2011, 9:47 am

I wonder... is there any similar word in Russian to "Yabutchki"?

As you might know, we've been discussing the possibility that Ruth Paine filled out the order forms for the weapons and perhaps also was the author of the so-called "Walker" letter.

Would you be able to offer any opinion on those possibilities?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by 9K116 on Fri 01 Jul 2011, 7:12 pm

The closest one seems to be `Yablotchki`, what means `small apples`, but it makes no sense... However, this word can also be applied for the very center of target for shooting (I think it is called `Bullseye` in English) - but it also makes a limited sense, since this word should be use in singular form (what would be `Yablotchko`) instead of plural, as it is in the source.

I got no idea of other variants, they are much further from original and next closest ones sounds coarse - `Yebutchiki` looks for me as somethting like, excuse me, `fuckers` in English Very Happy It also makes no sense.

So my opinion is that most likely it is nothing more than Ruth Pain misspeaking here, like forgeting the needed word and using the first one that sounded like it.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Sat 02 Jul 2011, 10:28 pm

I got no idea of other variants, they are much further from original and next closest ones sounds coarse - `Yebutchiki` looks for me as somethting like, excuse me, `fuckers` in English It also makes no sense.

lol!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 7:53 am

I think, now that the forum has a lot more contributing members, it is a good idea to occasionally revive some of the older threads.

I think this one poses some interesting questions:

I'll start with this...

Did Ruth Paine write the so-called Walker letter?


greg wrote:Here is the so-called Walker note
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0013a.htm


Here is a note he sent Marina while they were still living in Russia 
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0109a.htm


If you can, maybe you could comment on whether the Walker note shows more or less skill than the earlier note?

9k116 wrote:Walker note contains more mistakes than `While in Russia` one (however, I was able only to read first and half of second paragraph, other text is too blured to be understable). 


Walker note certainly is written by non-Russian, while `While in Russia` one only shows few elements indicating the Russian in not mother language of author. My conclusion is both notes in terms of grammar and orthography is not written by the same person. 


I have heard rumors claiming Ruth Paine knew Russian better than Oswald and he became mad when he was not able to understand conversation in Russian between Ruth and Marina. I find this untrue - author of both notes should know Russian good enough to be able understand conversation, even if his own speaking skills are not so great.
9k116 after reviewing RP samples wrote:Writing of Ruth Paine is much better than anything of alleged Oswald's. Actually I can't indicate any mistakes there, language is very good. The choice of words is correct, no orthographic mistakes (as far as I can read), only slight stylistic clumziness. 

So in terms of grammar and style `Walker note` is certainly closer to `While in Russia` notes. 

I must admit I am not able to make so deep analysis of style which could indicate are there enough stylistic or characteristic similarities between `Walker note` and writing of Ruth Paine. Some kind of skilled linguistic expert is needed for such research. 

However, now I think I can say for sure that first chapter of Walker note contains more mistakes than some of `While in Russia` notes in total. So, if they all are written by the same person, this person significantly lost his skills during 2 years period, from 1961 to 1963. Of course, I am not linguistic expert in any way, but for me Walker note does not look consistent with `While in Russia` notes, since last ones indicates better knowledge of Russian.
greg wrote:Okay. Got it. The Walker note and the "in Russia letters" were either written by different people or, if both written by Oswald, his ability had greatly diminished between the times of those writings (even though for a lot of that time, he was still living in Minsk).
Since I do not believe Oswald 's ability in the Russian language diminished to any degree,

and since I do not believe Oswald took any kind of pot-shot at Walker,

then I have to conclude that someone else wrote the so-called Walker note and tried to imitate what they thought was Oswald's level of ability.

and since Ruth Paine though Oswald's level of ability was not that high...

Senator COOPER - Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian. 


Mrs. PAINE - His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good. 


despite the more expert opinion of Peter Gregory... (I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it. He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a translator.)

I would have to conclude Mrs P is a likely candidate as the author.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 2:29 pm

Does Gregory mean, by the second part of his assertion, that he set Oswald a composition assignment in Russian? (note that in European languages 'interpret' can mean "from the foreign language into the mother tongue", while 'translate' signifies the opposite, so he might be vouching for his bidirectional fluency).  If he does, then it would seem to contradict what Ruth Paine states; but if he doesn't, then obviously it could be the case that Oswald's passive command of Russian was superior to his active or productive use of the language, particularly in writing. But the whole question of LHO's level of linguistic competence in Russian is about as turbid as practically everything else in this case.

As for Paine being the author of the Walker note, there's some forceful circumstantial evidence to suggest it (like how it was found), that's for sure.  Bad grammar and stylistic awkwardness could certainly be faked, though the person doing so needs to be skilled enough to be subtle about it.  Some of the English orthographic and grammatical blunders we find in LHO's writing, for instance, could in fact suggest forgery by their blatancy.

Albert Rossi

Posts : 417
Join date : 2013-08-29
Age : 61
Location : Naperville, IL USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by greg parker on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 3:51 pm

Albert Rossi wrote:Does Gregory mean, by the second part of his assertion, that he set Oswald a composition assignment in Russian? (note that in European languages 'interpret' can mean "from the foreign language into the mother tongue", while 'translate' signifies the opposite, so he might be vouching for his bidirectional fluency).  If he does, then it would seem to contradict what Ruth Paine states; but if he doesn't, then obviously it could be the case that Oswald's passive command of Russian was superior to his active or productive use of the language, particularly in writing. But the whole question of LHO's level of linguistic competence in Russian is about as turbid as practically everything else in this case.

As for Paine being the author of the Walker note, there's some forceful circumstantial evidence to suggest it (like how it was found), that's for sure.  Bad grammar and stylistic awkwardness could certainly be faked, though the person doing so needs to be skilled enough to be subtle about it.  Some of the English orthographic and grammatical blunders we find in LHO's writing, for instance, could in fact suggest forgery by their blatancy.
Thanks for that, Albert. I had to look "turbid" up, but have to say, it is the perfect word for this case, and I will have it in the back of my mind for next time I'm writing lyrics and need a rhyme for "turgid", "learned" (as in "learned" colleague) or I might even get away with "burn it"!

The other thing about the Walker letter is the complete lack of mention of Walker or any sort of illegality. Perhaps a clever forger would not mention such things because it would be too obvious -- and with the forger looking through the eyes of the forgee - too self-incriminating.

On the other other hand, lack of mention of such things means we are left with Marina's word as to what it referred to. For the sake of argument, if Oswald did write the letter, might it not refer to something entirely different? A pro-Castro picket through the streets, perhaps?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3443
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 09 Oct 2013, 4:08 pm

Yes, the lack of specificity means the reference of the note is ambiguous, though of course that is not an argument either way for its authenticity.

I just find the circumstances surrounding when and how it was "found", and the outrageous fact that the Secret Service wanted to return it to Ruth Paine because they thought it was "hers", to reek with the odor of fabrication.

Albert Rossi

Posts : 417
Join date : 2013-08-29
Age : 61
Location : Naperville, IL USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by Guest on Fri 08 Nov 2013, 4:52 pm

So how do you get hired and promoted to the position of a hotel manager when your background includes a bad discharge from the U.S. Navy and a birth date discrepancy?
(Another one! See William Whaley, et al) Did the Secret Service hand off Oswald's widow to just anyone?

Both 1930 and 1940 US Census records for Martin's family, parents Hebert John and Gertrude Martin, (brother Robert in 1940 census) inidicate James Herbert Martin's age as 3 and 13, (born no earlier than in 1926.) Yet his birthdate in the FBI's arrest report is 6 October, 1925:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71119&relPageId=14

Martin's US Navy enlistment date was 1 Oct., 1943, he may have been 5 days shy of his 17th birthday on that date.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71119&relPageId=15


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71122&relPageId=8
Martin received a bad conduct discharge from the US Navy on 2 March, 1945, as a result of being A.W.O.L. and charged with crimes described below.:

June, 1945, James Herbert Martin sentenced to one year suspended and two years probation for interstate auto theft:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71123&relPageId=3

James Herbert Martin's probation was extended two years until 1950.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=71128&relPageId=3

How did Martin get approved for hiring by Hilton Hotles and then in subsequent, soon after the end of his probation in 1950, and with a bad conduct Navy discharge?
Did the Secret Service do any background check of Martin or did they gather his background details and then use them as leverage to force his cooperation? He was permitted to take over Marina Oswald's finances, even to the point of her using the name Marina Martin to deposit checks sent to her by sympathetic donors, an account James Martin controlled. He was allowed to suggest an attorney to represent her commercial potential, to be her manager with a 15 percent cut, and to have sexual relations with her in a room in DC arranged by the Secret Service. How? Why?

https://www.google.com/#psj=1&q=jrk.hood.edu+robert+marina+martin+secret+service+leon
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/A Disk/Agent Oswald Volume 2/Item 06.pdf]Item 06.pdf[/url]
jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../A%20Disk/.../Item%2006.pdf‎
As son and brother, Robert Oswald is an exceptional man. It is not many who .... The Secret Service took possession of Marina as soon as they could, she, her ... Leon L. Gopedze, a Russian-speaking agent assigned to the Los Angeles office. ... of Marina "was ever conducted in the presence of James Martin" who by then.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/martin_jh.htm
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN
.....
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles and Ford and I are present.
Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir. .....
...... I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows: "Dear Mr. Martin: "Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, 200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.......
......The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.
(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren
left the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please.
Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager first come up.
Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there about 3 or 4 days, I guess.
Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963?
Mr. MARTIN. 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up?
Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an attorney for Marina.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?
Mr. MARTIN. In the den.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?
Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there.
Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.....
In 1967, the FBI had a new D.O.B. for Martin, exactly one year younger:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=97748&relPageId=8

DPD's Jack Revill reported a background check on Martin and his wife, Wanda, on 2 Dec., 1963. Revill includes a 1926 birth year, not 1925 as displayed in Marttin's 1945 FBI arrest report. Some of Martin's employment details differ with his WC testimony:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/11/1173-001.gif

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/martin_jh.htm
......
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?
Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin.
Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?
Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there?
Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956.
Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And during what period?
Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964......
 
Martin claimed government agents had run a background check on him and then "propositioned him to allow Marina Oswald and her two children to live with him in his home....Marina spoke good English and consumed much vodka." :
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=97748&relPageId=5

In 1967 Martin claimed he could not obtain a job in the Hotel industry because of his history with Marina Oswald and was "believed to have obtained employment with Sears Department Store, St. Petersburg, FL.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=97748&relPageId=4

He seems to be alive and recently turned 87 years old and spent many years since the late 1960's in Oklahoma, (If the FBI's 1967 revision of his D.O.B. is reliable.)

If you find this interesting, thank Lee Farley. I found this info through an obit of a woman whose married name was Dougherty when I was searching for Dudely T Dougherty info. The woman was the sister of the guy in WV who owned the 1941 Buick that James Martin stole in 1945 and drove across state lines.....

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and Russian things

Post by Sponsored content Today at 9:10 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum