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The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

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The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by 9K116 on Tue 20 Apr 2010, 10:42 pm

If we take a look at alleged life of LHO, it looks surprisingly inconsistent. There is no logic, no consequency in it at all. Let me expand it.


1. USMC
As we know, before joining USMC, LHO attented Civil Air Patrol. David Ferrie was there, and there is no reason to question his right-wing views. I believe Civil Air Patrol also was an anti-communistic movement - there is no way of being else in that period of Cold War. It is believed LHo already had leftist point of view, when he joined Civil Air Patrol. This look strange.

But later he voluntary joins USMC, with his leftist beliefs still intact. Surprisingly, he is not considered to be `unloyal`, despite of his open symphaties to the left side! Moreover, he is sent to secret air base and even granted security clearance. Could the invert situation happen in USSR, would be man with open right-wing symphaties allowed to serve in secret air base? No, and again no! No way. Such man in USSR most likely would be allowed to serve as simple rifleman, if even allowed to join army.


2. Defection to USSR
Story again is not consistent here. LHO allegedly so much wanted USSR citizenship to commit suicide, when USSR at first didn't accept him. At last he was allowed to stay, however he dissapointed in Soviet system and decided to go back to US. Despite of this he allegedly kept faith in leftist ideas.

I again see gaps here.
1. His suicide attempt. People usually commit suicides when they are dispaired, when they have lost meaning of their lifes and see no place in future for them. Suicide planning people do not write 7.00 P.M. I decide to end it.. Soak rist in cold water to numb the pain. Than slash my left wrist. Than plunge wrist into bathtub of hot water. This one look like report rather than emotional diary.

2. All those people who dissapointed in Communism ever, ceased to symphatise it. So, if LHO found life in USSR worse than in US, he should conclude that Capitalism is better than Communism. However, it is believed he kept to promote left-wing ideas whan he came back to US.


3. New Orleans
At first LHO meets Carlos Bringuier and shows intentions to fight Castro and Communism in Cuba and even offers an USMC handbook to him, but then LHO is standing on street with pro-Castro leaflets just few days after...


4. Assassinations
1. It is believed LHO was smart enough to order weapons under fake name. However, he wasn't smart enough to receive those weapons under fake name, and make another fake identity for getaway. As result, he could have 3 different identities: a) identity of weapon purchase; b) identity for shooting position (TSBD); c) identity for getaway. Such approach could give him opportunity to leave unarrested - rifle, found in TSBD and discovered to be ordered and shipped to Mr. Hidell, has no connections to Mr. Oswald, legally working in TSBD, and, for example, Mr. Lee, leaving Dallas by train, plane or care, has no obvious connections with TSBD, neither rifle found. Investigation would take a lot of time to find out visual coincidences of all 3 men and conclude it could possibly be the same person. Assuming LHO was the TSBD shooter, he did only half of this.

2. It is believed LHO couldn't drive and hadn't neither license and car. So, we must conclude he walked to the Walker crime scene or used public transportation, and he was carrying a rifle with him! Isn't it strange there are no witnesses seeing him (or anybody carrying rifle) walking with rifle in vicinity of Walker crime scene? Especially, when comparing it to amount of witnesses of Tippit shooting...

3. Despite of 26 volumes of contents, Warren Commission was unable to find out LHO's alleged motivation to kill JFK. However, assuming the LHO was the actual sniper, there is only two possible motivations: a) a thirst for fame (sometimes mentioned by lone-nut apologists); b) belief that JKF should be killed.
Let's review those motivations closer.
a) Thirst for fame. If LHO was shooter and he intended to kill JFK to become famous, why did he leave TSBD? Getting arrested in the place of crime could make him as famous as possible, with opportunity to make political or personal statements (he didn't make ones in actual press conferences and interviews). Moreover, leaving the crime scene and, assuming his guilt in Tippit shooting, he risked to be shot as fugitive or cop-killer.
b) Belief that JKF should be killed. I can not see any preconditions which could be lead LHO to kill JFK, if LHO acting alone on his own will. Believing in LHO's left-wing affiliation, Walker shooting could be viewed as possible, but why man, who tried to kill Walker, also intented to shoot politician with so different views as JFK? It just doesn't compute! It es meaningless in any way.

4. Getaway. If we believe in LHO guilt on Walker shooting, we must admit he did pretty well when remained undetected (remember, while such easy to notice thing as rifle!) and fled crime scene. It indicates he had pretty good getaway plan. However, when we come to JFK shooting (assuming LHO did it), there is no getaway plan at all! LHO left TSBD (what automatically makes him suspect) and after went to... movies. Although, this one is quite misteriously, and I will show why.

In general, there could be two main ways of behaviour after crime have been commited and you were there.
1. If you are not guilty, you will stay where you were before crime and leave place only after police investigators and your boss let you go. If you leave earlier - it is signal to police that you have intentions to hide and thus you are involved somehow.
2. If you are guilty and have no intention to be caught, you try to go away as fast as possible, however avoiding to look suspicious. If you are smart, you have a getaway plan already. You are prepared to leave, you have resources, money and fake documents. You go to train, plain, bus, but no to cinema.

However, LHO's actions, as far as know, do not indicate him as guilty nor as not guilty. He is suspended somewhere between these `guilty` and `uninvolved` positions.

+ + +

My final conclusion on all this stuff is as follows:
- LHO seems to have received some kind of intelligence training during his service in USMC or even before.
- LHO seems to have acting in interests of certain intelligence organization.
- LHO most likely has nothing to do with `Walker shooting`.
- It seems LHO has been at least involved in conspiracy to kill JFK. If facts are correct, there are no arguments which support vesion `LHO is not involved`. However, even if LHO was TSBD sniper, he did not act on his own plan.
- LHO movements after JFK shooting seems to be getaway plan where LHO was supposed to find his contact in Texas Theatre. However, contact never arrived and LHO was fooled here.

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Re: The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Apr 2010, 10:59 pm

9K116 wrote:If we take a look at alleged life of LHO, it looks surprisingly inconsistent. There is no logic, no consequency in it at all. Let me expand it.


1. USMC
As we know, before joining USMC, LHO attented Civil Air Patrol. David Ferrie was there, and there is no reason to question his right-wing views. I believe Civil Air Patrol also was an anti-communistic movement - there is no way of being else in that period of Cold War. It is believed LHo already had leftist point of view, when he joined Civil Air Patrol. This look strange.

But later he voluntary joins USMC, with his leftist beliefs still intact. Surprisingly, he is not considered to be `unloyal`, despite of his open symphaties to the left side! Moreover, he is sent to secret air base and even granted security clearance. Could the invert situation happen in USSR, would be man with open right-wing symphaties allowed to serve in secret air base? No, and again no! No way. Such man in USSR most likely would be allowed to serve as simple rifleman, if even allowed to join army.

Here is a quote from the testimony of one of Oswald's fellow Marines:
Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date time. Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

The Warren Commission disregarded Delgado's evidence that Oswald received "White Russian" newspapers. But even if Delgado was wrong, and these were actually Communist publications - they also disregarded Delgado's evidence that "they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this." That sound to me like an admission that the El Toro Base was no ordinary Marine Base.

2. Defection to USSR
Story again is not consistent here. LHO allegedly so much wanted USSR citizenship to commit suicide, when USSR at first didn't accept him. At last he was allowed to stay, however he dissapointed in Soviet system and decided to go back to US. Despite of this he allegedly kept faith in leftist ideas.

I again see gaps here.
1. His suicide attempt. People usually commit suicides when they are dispaired, when they have lost meaning of their lifes and see no place in future for them. Suicide planning people do not write 7.00 P.M. I decide to end it.. Soak rist in cold water to numb the pain. Than slash my left wrist. Than plunge wrist into bathtub of hot water. This one look like report rather than emotional diary.

An astute assessment. Much of is Soviet writings look like reports.

2. All those people who dissapointed in Communism ever, ceased to symphatise it. So, if LHO found life in USSR worse than in US, he should conclude that Capitalism is better than Communism. However, it is believed he kept to promote left-wing ideas whan he came back to US.

If you take Oswald at face value, when he came back, he wanted to see the best of Communism joined with the best of Capitalism to form a whole new system. Whether or not that is how he really felt about things is a matter of debate.

3. New Orleans
At first LHO meets Carlos Bringuier and shows intentions to fight Castro and Communism in Cuba and even offers an USMC handbook to him, but then LHO is standing on street with pro-Castro leaflets just few days after...

Yes!

4. Assassinations
1. It is believed LHO was smart enough to order weapons under fake name. However, he wasn't smart enough to receive those weapons under fake name, and make another fake identity for getaway. As result, he could have 3 different identities: a) identity of weapon purchase; b) identity for shooting position (TSBD); c) identity for getaway. Such approach could give him opportunity to leave unarrested - rifle, found in TSBD and discovered to be ordered and shipped to Mr. Hidell, has no connections to Mr. Oswald, legally working in TSBD, and, for example, Mr. Lee, leaving Dallas by train, plane or care, has no obvious connections with TSBD, neither rifle found. Investigation would take a lot of time to find out visual coincidences of all 3 men and conclude it could possibly be the same person. Assuming LHO was the TSBD shooter, he did only half of this.

That is another pattern. If you believe the official version of events, Oswald is a genius one minute and an idiot the next.

2. It is believed LHO cou
ldn't drive and hadn't neither license and car. So, we must conclude he walked to the Walker crime scene or used public transportation, and he was carrying a rifle with him! Isn't it strange there are no witnesses seeing him (or anybody carrying rifle) walking with rifle in vicinity of Walker crime scene? Especially, when comparing it to amount of witnesses of Tippit shooting...

Again going to the WC report, it states he took a bus and hid the rifle in a large coat. Do I believe that? No.

3. Despite of 26 volumes of contents, Warren Commission was unable to find out LHO's alleged motivation to kill JFK. However, assuming the LHO was the actual sniper, there is only two possible motivations: a) a thirst for fame (sometimes mentioned by lone-nut apologists); b) belief that JKF should be killed.
Let's review those motivations closer.
a) Thirst for fame. If LHO was shooter and he intended to kill JFK to become famous, why did he leave TSBD? Getting arrested in the place of crime could make him as famous as possible, with opportunity to make political or personal statements (he didn't make ones in actual press conferences and interviews). Moreover, leaving the crime scene and, assuming his guilt in Tippit shooting, he risked to be shot as fugitive or cop-killer.

Exactly! But the WC supporters would probably claim he got scared and changed his mind about being arrested...

b) Belief that JKF should be killed. I can not see any preconditions which could be lead LHO to kill JFK, if LHO acting alone on his own will. Believing in LHO's left-wing affiliation, Walker shooting could be viewed as possible, but why man, who tried to kill Walker, also intented to shoot politician with so different views as JFK? It just doesn't compute! It es meaningless in any way.

4. Getaway. If we believe in LHO guilt on Walker shooting, we must admit he did pretty well when remained undetected (remember, while such easy to notice thing as rifle!) and fled crime scene. It indicates he had pretty good getaway plan. However, when we come to JFK shooting (assuming LHO did it), there is no getaway plan at all! LHO left TSBD (what automatically makes him suspect) and after went to... movies. Although, this one is quite misteriously, and I will show why.

In general, there could be two main ways of behaviour after crime have been commited and you were there.
1. If you are not guilty, you will stay where you were before crime and leave place only after police investigators and your boss let you go. If you leave earlier - it is signal to police that you have intentions to hide and thus you are involved somehow.
2. If you are guilty and have no intention to be caught, you try to go away as fast as possible, however avoiding to look suspicious. If you are smart, you have a getaway plan already. You are prepared to leave, you have resources, money and fake documents. You go to train, plain, bus, but no to cinema.

However, LHO's actions, as far as know, do not indicate him as guilty nor as not guilty. He is suspended somewhere between these `guilty` and `uninvolved` positions.

That may be a good way to put it!

+ + +

My final conclusion on all this stuff is as follows:
- LHO seems to have received some kind of intelligence training during his service in USMC or even before.

Agreed

- LHO seems to have acting in interests of certain intelligence organization.

The question is, was it always knowingly? I think his trip to Russia was as a courier for the White House Special Group and supported by the CIA. After that, I think he may have become an assetof CIA used in ways he was not aware of.

- LHO most likely has nothing to do with `Walker shooting`.

Agreed, but even if he did have anything to do with it, I believe the shooting was nothing but a publicity stunt for his political aspirations.

- It seems LHO has been at least involved in conspiracy to kill JFK. If facts are correct, there are no arguments which support vesion `LHO is not involved`. However, even if LHO was TSBD sniper, he did not act on his own plan.

I think it is beyond doubt that he was NOT on the 6th floor - xo whatever the level of his involvement, it was not as a sniper.

- LHO movements after JFK shooting seems to be getaway plan where LHO was supposed to find his contact in Texas Theatre. However, contact never arrived and LHO was fooled here.

There seems to be something going on here that defies normal logic!


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 11 May 2010, 10:28 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : format)

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Re: The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by 9K116 on Thu 29 Apr 2010, 7:22 am

I spent few days trying to think out more consistent version of what happened, and the following is what I get.

[However, before I start, I would like to disclaim that I do not stand to this version by 100%, I just tried to model a scenario what makes some sense when confronted with facts we know sure.]

1. It seems that LHO was an intelligence operative, trained and elaborated legend within aims of operation `Northwoods`. His public leftist views by distributing leaflets and debating on radio most likely seems to creating a legend than trying to convince public in rightness of his views. Further he should be used as patsy and framed as Castro or other communist agent to justify second invasion in Cuba (or wherever needed).

2. Defection to USSR seems to be an intelligence operation, however it is impossible to discover its actual aims. He could be an agent send to contact a deeply conspired another agent, or had his own intelligence objective - we would never know that. My opinion is his mission was failure because of heavy surveilance of KGB. Although, I still see no logic to marry Marina and bring her out of USSR. This one is not consistent here.

3. It seems that LHO was designated to be patsy , however this was not revealed to him; most likely he thought that his legend is being elaborated to infiltrate him into a communist Cuban environment, with objective, for example, to assassinate Fidel Castro. So, it seems to me this element is consistent with story of JVB and alleged plans to infect Castro with some kind of biological weapons.

4. Most likely LHO had nothing to do with Walker shooting, however it is possible his `stunt double` did it. Although my version of event requires both LHO and his look-a-like `stunt double`, it is not neccessary to introduce `Harvey and Lee` here. Even if his stunt double (let's call him Mr. Hidell) used identity of LHO sometimes, it does not request him to be born as `Lee Oswald`. So, the `Walker shooting` seems to be done by Mr. Hidell in advance to elaborate the second legend, framing him as possible killer of right-wing radicals.

5. At last we came to November 22, 1963. Mr. Hidell with assistance of someone inside TSBD gets on 6th floor and fires the shots. LHO acts casually until he learns JFK has been shot near the building he works in. Even knowing nothing about his ties with Carcano rifle, LHO understands that he will become suspect because of his left-wing, pro-Castro public views. He calls his CIA contact, who orders him to get directly at Texas Theatre. Being concerned about set up as patsy, LHO goes home and gets his handgun (tied with Mr. Hidell just as Carcano and deliberately handed to LHO few days before by his CIA contact). Then he moves straight to Texas Theatre and tries to meet a contact there. However, contact never comes and police arrives instead of him.

LHO's CIA contact is not loyal to him and acts to frame LHO and set him up as patsy rather than help him. CIA contact has his own men in Dallas Police Department, and orders them to move a spendable Officer into an Oak Cliff.

Mr. Hidell tears off his fingerprints from Carcano, hides it and descents from 6th floor. He is picked up by Rambler Station Wagon on Elm Street and driven to Oak Cliff. Officer Tippit also is directed to Oak Cliff for no logical reason. Mr. Hidell disembarks Station Wagon and moves on foot, until he spots Police car. Mr. Hidell is one who stops the Police car and asks Officer Tippit how to find a library or whatever. When Officer Tippit gets out of car to show direction where library can be found, Mr. Hidell shoots him and runs away, leaving evidences on crime scene - hulls of rounds from handgun, given to LHO and wallet with documents of both names LHO and Alec Hidell. Then Mr. Hidell runs in direction of Texas Theatre, trying to look suspicious. He is man seen sneaking into theatre without paying.

While in theater, Mr. Hidell hides in balcony, unlike LHO who is told to wait his CIA contact downstairs. However, CIA contact already has tipped DPD Officers that suspect is sitting downstairs, not in balcony... after LHO is arrested and driven away, Mr. Hidell leaves Texas Theatre through service entrance in company of DPD Officers loyal to conspiracy...

6. Conspirators force Ruby to shot LHO using blackmail or threat tactics.

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Re: The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by greg parker on Sun 02 May 2010, 10:24 pm

It seems that LHO was an intelligence operative, trained and elaborated legend within aims of operation `Northwoods`.

It's also possible he thought he was an operative, but was really an unwitting asset (i.e. someone who could be manipulated and used unknowingly)

Like you, I'm not yet 100% certain, but at present, I tend to think he was sent to the Soviet Union as a courier by the Special Group on behalf of the White House, delivering radar technology via backchannels in return for agreements to be reached in the upcoming test ban summit. Unfortunately, neither the Special Group nor the CIA (who provided support for the operation) wanted the Test Ban Treaty to go ahead, and used Oswald's mission as an opportunity to destroy the Summit. They did this by sending a U2 flight over Russia against the direct orders of Eisenmhower. At the same time, the CIA picked up Oswald as an asset. After his return, he was used in various operations up to and including the assassination...

There is sound historical basis for the above in that Eisenhower did indeed want to share scientific information with the Soviets as a means of easing tensions. And this did include some military/space technology which for political reasons, could not be shared openly.

2. Defection to USSR seems to be an intelligence operation, however it is impossible to discover its actual aims. He could be an agent send to contact a deeply conspired another agent, or had his own intelligence objective - we would never know that. My opinion is his mission was failure because of heavy surveilance of KGB. Although, I still see no logic to marry Marina and bring her out of USSR. This one is not consistent here.

That he was to meet with others is also a possibility. The Zigers (who I believe may have been White Russian agents for CIA) come to mind.

3. It seems that LHO was designated to be patsy , however this was not revealed to him; most likely he thought that his legend is being elaborated to infiltrate him into a communist Cuban environment, with objective, for example, to assassinate Fidel Castro. So, it seems to me this element is consistent with story of JVB and alleged plans to infect Castro with some kind of biological weapons.

In that scenario, Oswald would (again) be a courier - this time of a bio-weapon. However, for various reasons, I think it's a longshot. I'm not yet convinced Oswald even went to Mexico City...

more later when time permits...

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Re: The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by 9K116 on Tue 11 May 2010, 6:09 pm

While reading topics on Education Forum, I found one more inconsistency.

If Oswald had documents on the name of Alek J. Hidell in his wallet, there is no sense to wear his wrist ID bracelet with name of LEE on it. Such bracelet denies of using documents issued on another name, and vice versa!

I know there were most than one wallet of Oswald found on November 22 (totally four? - one at him immediately after arrest, one at Tippit's shooting scene, one left in Paine's house in Irwing and supposedly one in the jacket, thrown away by Tippit's assassin?). Is it certainly known, which of them contained documents of Alek J. Hidell?

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Re: The Very Inconsistent History of LHO

Post by greg parker on Thu 13 May 2010, 10:04 pm

9K116 wrote:While reading topics on Education Forum, I found one more inconsistency.

If Oswald had documents on the name of Alek J. Hidell in his wallet, there is no sense to wear his wrist ID bracelet with name of LEE on it. Such bracelet denies of using documents issued on another name, and vice versa!

I know there were most than one wallet of Oswald found on November 22 (totally four? - one at him immediately after arrest, one at Tippit's shooting scene, one left in Paine's house in Irwing and supposedly one in the jacket, thrown away by Tippit's assassin?). Is it certainly known, which of them contained documents of Alek J. Hidell?

Not sure about a wallet in the jacket - but otherwise, yes. It should have been obvious (which may be why so many of us missed it!) that it makes no sense to wear an ID bracelet with your real name while carrying fake ID in another name.

That just reinforces my belief that he had no such ID on him. None of the arresting officers wrote anyhing about ID in two names in their initial reports.

Well spotted!

p.s. sorry about the problems with this thread. Now fixed with a change of skins

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