The Side Mounted Scope on the 6.5 Carcano

First topic message reminder :

I would like to begin a discussion about the side mounted rifle scope on the rifle allegedly owned by Oswald. Was it a good scope? Was it difficult to track a moving target with this scope? Did its offset mounting make it difficult to use? Did its offset mounting make using the open sights a possibility?

Is a side mounted scope difficult to sight or "zero" in at a rifle range? Did Oswald's training in the USMC cover sighting in rifle scopes? Once sighted in, is a side mounted scope as accurate as a top mounted scope?

I am sure, once the discussion begins, we will have many other questions.

Bob:

Let me stop, step back, and re-ask a question I know has probably been asked countless times before. I'm trying to connect a few dots in my mind.
 
In this and the other firearms/bullet-related threads here, you discussed the differences between full metal jacketed and hollow point bullets, with the former not allowed for use in hunting because they pass through the game doing little damage and not killing the animal right away. This makes sense.
 
In Dealey Plaza, the second shot, CE 399, the Magic Bullet, was a FMJ projectile that supposedly penetrated JFK and Connally, doing all the well-known damage without hardly a scratch on the bullet itself. Talk about an intact bullet!
 
The third shot—the same kind of bullet—passes through JFK's head and apparently disintegrates? They found bullet fragments (CE 843) from his head, but nothing much more than that. Wouldn't the third bullet, one of the FMJ bullets fired by Oswald—the one they say hit JFK in the head—wouldn't that FMJ bullet have passed through JFK's and, being on a downward trajectory, lodged itself somewhere in the car, somewhat intact?
 
Wouldn't you expect to find the copper jacket somewhere?

Yes and yes. I've seen soft tipped spire pointed hunting bullets, travelling at much higher velocities than the bullets from a Carcano, do far less damage to a deer's head than that FMJ bullet supposedly did to JFK's head.

I hope by now I have you wondering how one bullet fired from a 6.5mm Carcano can have deeper rifling grooves left in it than a bullet fired from another 6.5mm Carcano. Actually, we could use the same rifle and get different depths of grooves.

One thing that confuses many novices is that the calibre of a rifle (ie. 6.5 mm) is not necessarily the diameter of that rifle's bullet. In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano, the actual bullet diameter is about 6.8 mm, or .268". Just to confuse things, the .308 calibre rifle actually shoots a bullet .308" in diameter, while its calibre or "bore" is .30 calibre (.300").

While you are getting a headache working all that over, let's take a look at the inside of a rifle barrel and try to explain the rifling grooves; and how they determine things like calibre (bore) diameter, groove diameter  and bullet diameter.







When a rifle barrel is made, a piece of roundstock is drilled or "bored" from one end to the other, creating a hollow tube. The diameter of the hole bored becomes the "bore diameter" or calibre of the rifle; ie. 6.5 mm in the Carcano or "A" in the last diagram. In the next step, a special cutting tool is run through the barrel, twisting as it goes, and cutting spiral "grooves" in the inside of the barrel. The depth they are cut too becomes the "groove diameter" of the rifle; ie. 6.8 mm in the Carcano or "B" in the last diagram. The groove diameter is also the diameter of the bullet; this is very important to remember.

When a bullet travels down a barrel, the raised portion of the riflings, known as "lands" ("D") actually cut into the sides of the bullet, leaving distinctive grooves in a bullet. The bottom diagram (left side) is a fairly close depiction of the four lands and four grooves in a 6.5 Carcano barrel, as the Carcano did not have very wide lands. The diagram above it shows a barrel with much wider lands and narrower grooves.

The purpose of the riflings is to impart a spin to the bullet and stabilize it gyroscopically. Rifles are often referred to as having "fast twist" (1:8 or faster) or "slow twist" (1:10 or slower). The numbers mean the number of complete turns a bullet will make in how many inches. For instance, a 1:8 pitch means the bullet will make one complete spin in the space of 8 inches; 1:10 means one complete turn in 10 inches, etc. Heavier bullets tend to require a faster pitch while lighter bullets require a slower pitch.

The early Carcanos (pre-1938) had a type of rifling known as "gain" or "progressive" twist rifling. This was a difficult thing to machine in a rifle barrel but, it is still felt by some that it extended barrel life. There was another reason it was done but, we will look at that later. This type of rifling began with a very slow 1:19 twist at the breech, where the bullet begins its journey, and progressively got tighter as it travelled through the barrel; exiting at the muzzle where the twist ended up at a fast 1:8 twist.

The 6.5 mm is a popular European calibre, and has been chambered for many hunting as well as military rifles. What makes the Carcano unique is that while it shares the 6.5 mm calibre with these other rifles, it and it alone shoots a bullet greater in diameter than the other 6.5 mm rifles. The designers of the Carcano chose to give it extra deep rifling grooves; requiring a wider bullet. All other 6.5 mm calibre rifles shoot a bullet that is 6.7 mm (.264") in diameter while the Carcano shoots a bullet 6.8 mm (.268") in diameter. It is believed the Carcano lands were made narrow because, with their added height, they were already displacing a lot of the bullet jacket material. It is also believed, because the lands were taking such a deep bite, that the progressive twist rifling made the initial forward movement of the bullet easier.

While rifling grooves that are only .002" deeper, on each side of the barrel, than other 6.5mm rifles may not seem capable of having much effect on accuracy, it is a well established fact that shooting a bullet .264" in diameter from a 6.5 Carcano will redefine the expression "can't hit the broad side of a barn".

I'm getting a little tired here. Think over what I have written, and I will continue tomorrow.

thank you for this excellent explaining of the "rifling" as we call it in Europe
I have one question about different materials such as copper jacketet and plain lead bullets for this rifle, is there a lot of difference when shooting with e.g. lead first and then copper jacketet as lead is softer than copper, would that explain the 2. shot missing the target ?
I have a very big problem in seeing that LHO should have shot these three shots, and hit anything, because I also believe that the rifle stock was varped on this rifle and there is no chance that he could have used the scope for aiming leaving him only with the Iron sights on this crappy rifle.
Anyway, I have read the testimony of SA Frazier and it is very sloppy police work, they would have zero chance of getting LHO convicted in the court, at least if it was based on the facts.
Is the Carcano still in national archives or is it missing in action ?
What are the chances of getting it out to a test, would be great to get a chance too see if the wood of the stock has been sanded to get the rifle shooting straight for the second tests.

Vincent Bugliosi…

…puts forward the hypothesis that Oswald fired the Carcano over open sights, which reduced the time necessary to take the three shots postulated by the Warren Commission. He notes that with the downward slope on Dealey Plaza, President Kennedy's head would have appeared to Oswald to be a stationary target as the vehicle moved down and away at a slow speed. This suggestion also therefore makes any claim that the scope was defective to be meaningless with respect to Oswald's shooting ability. However, with the M91/38 open sights being factory set to be accurate at 200 metres, the final shot being well under 100 metres and the M91/38 not being a very flat shooting rifle to begin with (up to ten inches high at 100 metres), this rifle would have been shooting quite high and would have made hitting JFK extremely difficult. This would have been further exacerbated by the steep downward angle from the sixth floor of the TSBD to the limo which would have made the shot go even higher than what Oswald would have been aiming at.
 
Reference: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

Not known as a mouthpiece for conspiracy theories, Wikipedia is basically saying here that Oswald couldn't have hit the bung hole on an elephant, with or without the chinsy scope. Yet Bugs says:  

With the Kennedy case, I learned that there is absolutely no bottom to the pile. It’s a bottomless pit. While I am talking right now, at least a hundred people are looking at some document from the National Archives, looking for some contradiction, inconsistency, discrepancy, some hint of a conspiracy, working full time on it, and probably another thousand working part-time. When you have intelligent people like this (I think that with respect to this case they’re certifiably psychotic), they can create a lot of mischief, which they have. They have succeeded in convincing 75 percent of Americans of this conspiracy.
 
Reference: History News Network http://hnn.us/article/41490

Hey, Bugs…you and your lone nutter cronies never stop trotting out your lamebrain, faith-based hypotheses and you call us certifiably psychotic?
 

Stan Dane wrote:

Vincent Bugliosi…

…puts forward the hypothesis that Oswald fired the Carcano over open sights, which reduced the time necessary to take the three shots postulated by the Warren Commission. He notes that with the downward slope on Dealey Plaza, President Kennedy's head would have appeared to Oswald to be a stationary target as the vehicle moved down and away at a slow speed. This suggestion also therefore makes any claim that the scope was defective to be meaningless with respect to Oswald's shooting ability. However, with the M91/38 open sights being factory set to be accurate at 200 metres, the final shot being well under 100 metres and the M91/38 not being a very flat shooting rifle to begin with (up to ten inches high at 100 metres), this rifle would have been shooting quite high and would have made hitting JFK extremely difficult. This would have been further exacerbated by the steep downward angle from the sixth floor of the TSBD to the limo which would have made the shot go even higher than what Oswald would have been aiming at.
 
Reference: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

Not known as a mouthpiece for conspiracy theories, Wikipedia is basically saying here that Oswald couldn't have hit the bung hole on an elephant, with or without the chinsy scope. Yet Bugs says:  

With the Kennedy case, I learned that there is absolutely no bottom to the pile. It’s a bottomless pit. While I am talking right now, at least a hundred people are looking at some document from the National Archives, looking for some contradiction, inconsistency, discrepancy, some hint of a conspiracy, working full time on it, and probably another thousand working part-time. When you have intelligent people like this (I think that with respect to this case they’re certifiably psychotic), they can create a lot of mischief, which they have. They have succeeded in convincing 75 percent of Americans of this conspiracy.
 
Reference: History News Network http://hnn.us/article/41490

Hey, Bugs…you and your lone nutter cronies never stop trotting out your lamebrain, faith-based hypotheses and you call us certifiably psychotic?
 

Oops! I wrote the last part of that Wikipedia paragraph, and this is the first time I noticed the typo I made. I meant to type that the bullet would be two inches high at 100 yards, not ten. I just went back and edited it.

Thanks for pointing that out, Stan.

Seeing Bugs telling us that we are certified loonies, made me think that maybe LHO ( or the Paines ) ordered a rifle serialnumbered 2766 took a shot at this genaral, and buried the rifle in the Backyard after taking the photos, then went out and bought another Carcano with the same serial, as we know that Carcano reused serialnumbers.
Only difference is the strapholders that in 2766 A was on the bottom and on 2766 B was on the side of the rifle, how about that for a loony theory ?

So, I left off with telling you that the 6.5 mm calibre was popular in Europe in both hunting and military rifles, and that all 6.5 mm rifles, due to the depth of their rifling grooves, required a bullet .264" in diameter, EXCEPT for the 6.5 Carcano which, due to much deeper rifling grooves, required a bullet .268" in diameter.

Just as a side note, here is something to consider when discussing the bullet that hit JFK in the head and literally came to pieces. Not only was it a full metal jacket bullet (purposely designed NOT to come apart), its copper alloy jacket, due to the deeper Carcano rifling grooves, had jacket walls .002" thicker than any other 6.5 mm bullet. This was a robust bullet; so robust, in fact, that it most times went right through an enemy combatant without doing much damage. This was such a problem that it was the inspiration for dropping the 6.5x52mm Carcano in 1938 and replacing it with the 7.35x51mm Carcano. More on this fiasco in a later post.

Anyways, back to the original topic, that being how the rifling grooves on CE 399 might not be as deep as the rifling grooves on the .268" diameter bullet from Doctor Bill. To get the whole story, we have to go to Italy circa 1943.

Things were not going so well for the Fascists in 1943. Mussolini had been deposed and sent into captivity by Loyalists, where he was liberated by Hitler's paratroopers in a daring raid. He was reinstated as leader of a much reduced territory involving only northern Italy. In the south of Italy, German troops still clung stubbornly to every inch of ground. Italian troops in southern Italy, idled by the armistice with the Allies signed on Sept. 8, 1943, wanted desperately to rid themselves of the Nazi occupiers and either formed partisan guerilla groups or joined a group known as the Italian Co-Belligerent Army, a reorganized force loyal to King Victor Emmanuel of Italy. These troops, still armed with their 6.5mm Carcanos, fought alongside Allied troops and, at one point, it is estimated that one-eighth of all combat troops fighting the Nazis in Italy belonged to this force. Many of these troops fought with great valor, and distinguished themselves in such horrific battles as Monte Cassino.

While the Warren Commission has a lovely cloak and dagger story about four million rounds of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. (USA) in a clandestine delivery to the USMC in 1954, with the ultimate recipient being broadly hinted at as being the CIA (to arm some faction in a Third World fracas somewhere), there are problems with this story. First, the only international fracases taking place in 1954 were in French Indo-China, Algeria and Guatemala, and there were no great caches of 6.5 Carcanos in any of those countries.

There is ample evidence that all 6.5x52 mm Carcano ammo made by the WCC was intended to arm Italian troops fighting Nazis. Mark Lane, in "Rush to Judgement", quoted a letter to Steve Galanor from Winchester-Western (parent co. of the WCC) that stated all production of this cartridge was for US Defense Dept. contracts and completed in 1944, with no further 6.5mm Carcano production. Sylvia Meagher, in her 1967 book "Accessories After the Fact", quotes the following FBI report:

"On March 23, 1964, Mr. R.W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-Western Division, Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation, Braniff Building, advised [that] the Western Cartridge Company, a division of Olin Industries, East Alton, Illinois, manufactured a quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian Government during World War II. At the end of the war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type ammunition, was sold to United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers, and individual purchasers."

Clearly, the 1954 manufacture date from the WC was a lie, and Oswald would have been shooting twenty year old ammunition.

It is likely the ammunition made for the Italians, which never seemed to have made it to Italy, was manufactured as insurance against a prolonged struggle in Italy. However, Italy was not the only place in Europe where a great number of 6.5 Carcano rifles existed.

When the armistice of Sept. 8, 1943 was signed, removing Italian fighting forces from WWII, Italian troops had been co-occupying the country of Greece with German forces. The Germans, fearing an armed resistance armed with 6.5 Carcanos in Italy, once these troops were repatriated to Italy, which is in fact what happened, disarmed the Italian troops in Greece and sent them back to Italy without their Carcanos. Hence, there were great caches of 6.5 Carcano rifles in Greece, which soon found their way into the hands of Communist and Loyalist Greek partisans. 

There are sources on the Internet that tell us the WCC 6.5mm ammo was made in the USA, in 1949, to arm the anti-Communist factions in the Greek Civil War. This is simply more disinformation designed as a distracting compromise to the 1954 story, for those not comfortable with that date. It makes no sense, as the civil war ENDED in 1949, and it would have been a little late to be supplying ammo. Also, these sources list the Greek Civil War as taking place from 1946-1949. This is misleading, for as soon as the ink was dry on the Italian armistice in 1943 and the Carcanos were stockpiled in garrisons in Greece, Greek partisans were not only setting designs on these weapons, they were also beginning to war with each other as well as the Germans, and these partisan groups would become warring factions once the liberation of Greece was complete. As one faction was Communist, it only makes sense that the US would take an early interest in this struggle (1943-1944) and make plans to arm their favorite.

Now, this has been a long story, and I still have not told you why CE 399 might have shallower rifling grooves on it than the .268" bullet of Doctor Bill's. Well, the story gets a bit longer, and it has mainly to do with the Greek military issue rifle, the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

If placed side by side, a 6.5x52 mm Carcano cartridge and a 6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge are virtually indistinguishable. The 52 mm and 54 mm measurements are of the brass case, not the entire bullet. If measured, it will be found that the 6.5 MS brass catridge is 2 mm longer, and the shoulder of the brass cartridge would be 1 mm (.040") higher on the 6.5 MS cartridge case than the shoulder of the 6.5 Carcano cartridge case.




6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge


Translated, this means you can load a 6.5 Carcano cartridge into a 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle and shoot it, IF the 6.5 Carcano cartridge is loaded with a .264" diameter bullet and NOT the .268" diameter bullet normally fired from a 6.5 Carcano. The brass will stretch when fired as it takes up the 1 mm (.040")slack in the shoulder to fit the MS chamber, but this is of little consequence.

Some 6.5 Carcanos had their chambers reamed out by Greek armourers to accept the 6.5x54 MS cartridge. By doing this, they forever robbed these rifles of accuracy, as a .264" bullet (the standard and only possible bullet to load into a 6.5 MS cartridge)fired from a 6.5 Carcano is nowhere near as accurate as a .268" bullet. However, during combat, a man is considered a 2 x 5 foot target, and a bullet placed anywhere on that target will take that man out of the fight. Sniper accuracy is not essential in combat, where combatants are often shooting at each other at ranges under 75 yards.

Here is the question. If you were in the US Defense Dept., and you were looking at arming Italians equipped with 6.5 Carcanos, Greek partisans armed with 6.5 Carcanos (some stock and some re-chambered for 6.5 MS) and Greek partisans armed with 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauers, would you not want one generic cartridge (the 6.5 Carcano) that could be fired in all of these weapons? ESPECIALLY if it was pre-1944 and you were trying to keep it secret from your Soviet allies that you were only arming the anti-Communist partisan factions in Greece?

The only compromise you would have to make is that the WCC cartridges would have to be loaded with bullets .264" in diameter and not those .268" in diameter. Although accuracy would be sacrificed, this would actually make things simpler, as the .264" bullets were the ones everyone but the Italians used, and dies for making these bullets would be far easier to come by.

Look again at the photos. If CE 399 was .264" in diameter, would it not make sense that the grooves made in it would be shallower than those made by a 6.5 Carcano rifle in a .268" diameter bullet? If Oswald was shooting bullets .264" in diameter from a 6.5 Carcano short rifle, could he have hit JFK, considering all of the other deficiencies we have discussed?

Traveller11 wrote:The only compromise you would have to make is that the WCC cartridges would have to be loaded with bullets .264" in diameter and not those .268" in diameter. Although accuracy would be sacrificed, this would actually make things simpler, as the .264" bullets were the ones everyone but the Italians used, and dies for making these bullets would be far easier to come by.

Look again at the photos. If CE 399 was .264" in diameter, would it not make sense that the grooves made in it would be shallower than those made by a 6.5 Carcano rifle in a .268" diameter bullet? If Oswald was shooting bullets .264" in diameter from a 6.5 Carcano short rifle, could he have hit JFK, considering all of the other deficiencies we have discussed?

Very informative! Thanks Bob, good work. 

Do we know for sure the diameter of CE 399, i.e. is it .268" or is it .264"? If it's not known, what would it take to have somebody check it with a caliper?

We only know what we are told. It would likely take an overthrow of the government before we could get anywhere near CE 399 with a caliper.

Traveller11 wrote:We only know what we are told. It would likely take an overthrow of the government before we could get anywhere near CE 399 with a caliper.

I hear ya.  It will be when this happens:
 

 
(I once lived 60 miles from Hell.)

LOL I've heard of Hell. What state is it in?

Traveller11 wrote:LOL I've heard of Hell. What state is it in?

Michigan, not far from Ann Arbor.

Quote from Chris Newton, Ed. Forum:


"Robert, Kudos on your treatise about the differences in the Carcano cartridges.
 
I have questions on a slightly different subject: if Oswald was using the iron sights and taking into consideration the downward travel of the Limo and gravity, wouldn't we need to believe Oswald's aim point was somewhere in space above Kennedy's head to actually hit him in the head? Has anyone ever tried to calculate how many stars would have to align to make that happen? ...because if you were actually looking down the sights and you weren't on the target, how would you track that target?
 
A conundrum wrapped in bullshit."

The reply from Robert Prudhomme:


"Hi Chris
 
This is a real puzzle you have pointed out, and well worth looking at. As you know, the M91/38 iron sights were zeroed at the factory to be accurate at 200 metres (219 yards) on level ground. To aim at a target at 100 metres, he would either have to aim a few inches low, or, instead of placing the front sight blade square in the notch of the rear sight, he would have to lower the front of the barrel until the front sight disappeared from the notch. Hard to aim when you can't see the front sight, though. Of course, the last shot was at 88 yards (80 metres).
 
Then, with the downward trajectory from the 6th floor, the shot would end up hitting higher than the point of aim, requiring Oswald to aim a couple of inches low to compensate.
 
If Robert Frazier is to be believed (which I do not), it was not possible to adjust the scope to make the rifle not hit a few inches high and to the right at 100 yards. This problem seemed to also get worse with each successive shot. As I explained before, this was more likely from a warped forestock pressing on the barrel and making shots go high and to the right. With each shot, the barrel would heat and expand more, bending the barrel further and making the shots go even further to the right and higher. This would be difficult to compensate for but, once again, shooting low (and increasingly to the left) would seem to be the only remedy.
 
So far, we have Oswald aiming at the middle of JFK's back to score a head shot.
 
Next, we have JFK going away from Oswald, down a slope and a little to the right, as viewed by Oswald. Lead to the right and shoot a little high? I give up. This is one of those things I think could be worked out by trial and error live shooting, and by repairing the rifle first, which Frazier more than likely did.
 
While the debate goes on endlessly about whether Oswald practiced with a rifle or not, here is something else we should be thinking about. The geography of Dallas, Texas is relatively flat. Where did Oswald practice shooting downhill at moving targets?"

Bob, I appreciate all of the information/analysis you've been providing concerning rifles, different types of bullets, and the many factors that affect ballistics. Yet another way to show how "certifiably psychotic" those who still cling to the Warren Commission sci-fi really are.

Why, thank you, Stan. I really appreciate that. Sometimes, I get the feeling I am preaching to an empty church LOL.

I made the suggestion to a member on another forum, that if Oswald supposedly practiced with this rifle as much as WC supporters claim he did, he would have quickly discovered the gross inadequacies of this toy rifle scope, and likely have removed the scope before taking the rifle to the TSBD; making the open sights much easier to use.

Some feel that removing the scope would be somehow complicated, yet it is something that could be done in a couple of minutes. As I said on the other forum, "....as easy as re-assembling a Carcano with a dime."