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Walker bullet and NAA

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 12:14 pm

Now for variation within bullets due to the accumulation of Sb at crystal grain boundaries. The following graphic from Randlich and Grant 2006.



The grains that are formed contain elevated Sb at the boundaries. The sample sizes for most bullets tested were approximately 50 mg. the authors overplayed 2 boxes representing the area required for cubes required to produce 50 and 5mg samples. clearly the smaller size is greatly influenced by the grain size. Even the larger sample may only represent a few grains and have variable composition to a sample taken from an area with smaller grains. One would conclude that in areas of small grain size the Sb amounts in those samples would be higher than those with larger grain size.

So we have 2 sources of variability of Sb content. One at the macro level is dependent on mixing of recycled lead into the batch, the other at the micro level due to the accumulation of metals other than lead into the boundaries between grains.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Albert Rossi on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 12:33 pm

Thanks to both of you, Stan for the clear summary, and Colin, for the good analogy and additional analysis.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 2:49 pm

Well done, Colin. And thank you for the kind words, Albert.
 
Colin, after digesting the Randich and Grant (R&G) report, I can't go so far as to say that the Walker bullet and the unfired round (CE 141) absolutely did not come from WCC bullet lead (lots 6000-6003), however I think your premise that they are different is intact and I agree with that.
 
R&G said that soft lead has a specification of <0.1% antimony. They also cite a specification for MC ammunition of 98.85% lead purity; you mention a specification of 99.5%. Looking at these, the 0.1% antimony limit falls sort of in-between, so I'll use this for the sake of discussion.
 
If soft lead has a limit of 0.1% antimony, this means it could have as much as 1000 ppm antimony in the lead. Since we now know that antimony is not homogenously mixed throughout the lead, we can expect much variation depending upon where the samples are taken and how large the sample mass is. Because of this, we could see sample results ranging from a few ppm to perhaps several thousand ppm, again, depending upon the sample location.
 
So when R&G say the Kennedy/Connally fragments "need not necessarily have originated from MC ammunition. Indeed, the antimony compositions of the evidentiary specimens are consistent with any number of jacketed ammunition containing unhardened lead," they are saying that there is enough uncertainty in play that these fragments could have come from other soft lead sources. If I extrapolate this reasoning to the Walker/CE 141 lead, I could also say these samples might be from MC ammunition.
 
But as you point out, silver concentrations do suggest the Walker/CE 141 lead may not be from WCC MC lead sources, which supports your position.
 
I like your lead-silver graphics. Pictures always tell the story best. Silver may be much like tin in the way it uniformly mixes with lead. Similar to a mercury-silver amalgam, silver seems to mix with lead homogenously.
 
To your main point, that being the Walker/CE 141 bullet lead coming from someplace else, I'm comfortably with you here.
 
Again, excellent work.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 8:18 pm

Guinn obviously relied predominantly on one element (Sb) in his analysis. It is best to use as many elements as possible to provide matches/non-matches. In Guinn's HSCA report he did provide amounts for other elements but ignored them. Unfortunately he only provided numbers for the car fragments, Connally's, JFK's head and CE399. Fortunately he included them for his analysis of CE573 and CE141.

Just to illustrate how different these bullets differ in composition see the plot below. I have adjusted the ppm values for each so that they fall roughly into the same range for plotting. Eg Sb is divided by 100 for all and Mn multiplied by 100 for all. Admittedly the sample size is small but the difference in trace amounts of elements in the leads is significant.


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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 24 Dec 2013, 1:17 pm




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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 24 Dec 2013, 1:22 pm

from Tom Purvis


A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.
B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)


C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.
D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.
E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.




The Italian 6.5mm ammo box is marked almost exactly as is the box shown except for calibre. (Shown below)






It would seem the boxes of "Italian ammo" found by Honea are likely this type as they are clearly Italian and for the 3 x 3 x 2 dimensions described. The WCC boxes of 20 are clearly quite oblong and not square. These boxes also contained a clip. The WCC ammo does not. As the Walker bullet is clearly different from all those tested from WCC it is likely that the bullet used in the Walker shooting was of Italian war surplus origin.


It is interesting that Tom claims that originally the WCC boxes were not labelled but had the slip of paper inside.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Guest on Tue 24 Dec 2013, 1:58 pm

Colin Crow wrote:from Tom Purvis


A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.
B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)


C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.
D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.
E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.




The Italian 6.5mm ammo box is marked almost exactly as is the box shown except for calibre. (Shown below)






It would seem the boxes of "Italian ammo" found by Honea are likely this type as they are clearly Italian and for the 3 x 3 x 2 dimensions described. The WCC boxes of 20 are clearly quite oblong and not square. These boxes also contained a clip. The WCC ammo does not. As the Walker bullet is clearly different from all those tested from WCC it is likely that the bullet used in the Walker shooting was of Italian war surplus origin.


It is interesting that Tom claims that originally the WCC boxes were not labelled but had the slip of paper inside.

Hi Colin

I just love complicating things even more than they already are LOL. The real fly in the ointment concerning the Walker bullet was the observation by the two DPD detectives assigned to this case that the Walker bullet was "steel jacketed". As almost all (if not all) North American rifle ammo in 1963 was jacketed with copper alloys that most definitely looked like copper, this observation cannot be taken lightly. Certainly not as lightly as it was taken by WC attorneys and FBI SA Robert Frazier, who made every attempt to trivialize the detectives' observation.

SMI Italian military ammo was made with bullets jacketed in both gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc with a copper appearance) and cupro-nickel (approximately 60% copper, 40% nickel with a silvery appearance that might be confused for steel).

Now, this is where things get weird. As the Walker bullet in evidence is clearly jacketed in gilding metal, and the one seen by DPD detectives was likely jacketed in cupro-nickel, was one Italian surplus bullet swapped for another Italian surplus bullet, in the hopes that all of the bullets resembling WCC gilding metal clad bullets would convince everyone of the authenticity of the Walker bullet?

On the other hand (heh heh heh) what if the DPD detectives knew lots about rifle ammunition, and the Walker bullet really was a steel jacketed bullet? To keep them from rusting, steel jacketed bullets (common in Asia and Europe) typically have a light coating of copper or zinc to prevent oxidation, giving them a copper or steel coloured appearance.

Great discussion, by the way.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 24 Dec 2013, 4:13 pm



The bullet on left....1. Model 1891/95 standard ball load used in the M91 Mannlicher-Carcano bolt action rifle, which was of a modified Mauser design using a Mannlicher style magazine. Production began in 1891, and continued to World War 2.

Does it look like steel?

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Guest on Tue 24 Dec 2013, 5:56 pm

Absolutely, Colin. So does the armour piercing 6.5mm round (#2) and the frangible 6.5mm round (#3). Even the canister 6.5mm round (#5) could be passed off as a steel jacketed round, if a person did not know any better.

Truth of the matter is, all of these rounds, except for #4, which is a blank round loaded with a wooden bullet that disintegrates shortly after exiting the muzzle, are jacketed in cupro-nickel. From what I have been able to gather, some Italian military ammunition was also jacketed in steel, and these were given an outer plating of either gilding metal or cupro-nickel so, in all honesty, one cannot say with certainty whether the bullet on the left is jacketed with cupro-nickel or jacketed with steel and then plated with cupro-nickel. Sometimes, the only way to find out is by using a magnet.

If nothing else, the Italians seemed to like variety.


Last edited by Traveller11 on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 4:46 pm

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9772.0.htmlAm I correct in my analysis of the Walker bullet with respect to the crimping pattern compared to CE399?




I have taken the quarter of a bullet inside the red lines to make the comparison.

This is the thread at Duncan's forum

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9679.0.html

Here is another thread where I question the "miss".

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9772.0.html

I am not convinced whoever fired was aiming for Walker that night.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by greg parker on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 5:37 pm

Colin Crow wrote:http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9772.0.htmlAm I correct in my analysis of the Walker bullet with respect to the crimping pattern compared to CE399?




I have taken the quarter of a bullet inside the red lines to make the comparison.

This is the thread at Duncan's forum

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9679.0.html

Here is another thread where I question the "miss".

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9772.0.html

I am not convinced whoever fired was aiming for Walker that night.
Colin, I didn't get through either thread. 

But I think I read enough. I think you have nailed the trajectory. I have always believed the shooting was a stunt. This certainly points in that direction.

As for those saying the bullet never went over his head and instead entered the wall to his left, how do they explain this?

"It wouldn’t be until the police arrived that he would brush away the plaster that had fallen into his hair when the projectile hit the wall."
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/explore/20130511-before-gunning-for-jfk-oswald-targeted-ex-gen.-edwin-a.-walker--and-missed.ece

Pure theater. He waits till someone can come and witness him brushing the plaster out.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Guest on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 6:23 pm

Hi Colin

The ring on the bullet you are referring to is called the "cannelure" and its purpose is to provide a more secure grip with the neck of the cartridge when the bullet is seated during loading of the cartridge.

Interesting observation about the differing number of cannelure ridges between the two bullets.

Another interesting thing about CE 399, and CE 573, now that I look at it, is how shallow the rifling grooves are. All 6.5 mm rifles (.257 calibre in North America) have a bore diameter (measured across the barrel from the tops of the lands) of 6.5 mm or about .256". However, because the rifling grooves are deeper, it goes without saying that these rifles will shoot a bullet greater in diameter than 6.5mm/.256", and, in fact, they do.

All 6.5mm/.257 calibre rifles are loaded with a bullet .264" in diameter, EXCEPT for the 6.5 Carcano. Because its designers chose to make their rifling grooves deeper than anyone else, it is necessary to load a bullet .268" in diameter instead of .264". However, as the bore diameter is still .256", we should see deeper rifling grooves on CE 399.

There are two possibilities. One, CE 399 was not fired from a 6.5mm Carcano. Two, Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition was not loaded with .268" diameter bullets but, rather, .264" diameter bullets; either accidentally, through ignorance, or purposely, in the interests of wartime economy.

Here is a photo of a .268" bullet fired from what is mistakenly referred to as a M38 Carcano carbine. If it was truly an M38, it would be a 7.35mm calibre rifle. This is a common mistake, and what was likely meant was an M91/38 Carcano carbine of 6.5mm calibre.

 http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/6d26bdbf0c_md.jpg


P.S. Another thing, the rifling marks on the "Cruise Missile" bullet do not look as tight as those on CE 399, meaning the rifle that fired CE 399 had a tighter rifling pitch than the rifle that fired the "Cruise Missile".

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:32 am

Colin, are the CE 573 & 399 images the exact same scale? If they were off a little, it could explain the differences in the number of ridges. And when you consider 573 is squashed some in the middle, it could also be a factor in the ridge count.
 
When superimposed, the red lines (two inner ones CE 399) don't appear to be quite the same scale.




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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 10:11 am

Stan, my approach was this. I don't think the scale makes much difference. However we see that CE573 is flattened. The base still appears ovoid, so I assume it is like a squashed cylinder. Therefore it will have more observable ridges near the edges than CE399 which is not deformed as much. To make things equal I counted only between the 25-75% region of each. This is represented by the verticle red lines. Thus poorly visible ridges in the curvature of CE399 are not an issue. In reality this should represent a quarter of the whole bullet. Please note the red lines on the diagram are not exactly where I measured from but an indicator of the method. To determine the width of the bullet I used a graphics program and measured pixel width for each.

I have been searching for a similar picture of a SMI MC round. My bet is that it will match the numbers for CE573.

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Re: Walker bullet and NAA

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