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A New Oswald Lookalike

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 7:22 am

I wonder if David Talbot is aware of this.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 7:25 am

Some quick responses:

1. If the original photo posted was taken on 11/22 and the photo of Robert was taken on 11/24 then the original photo posted here can't be Robert. His hair could not have grown that quickly. Rowland (from memory) was wearing a white short sleeve shirt on the day of the assassination. Does the photo look more like RO than AR -- YES. But if the dates are right, I don't see how it can be RO.

2. Again from memory - the book Marguerite had read before making those comments was "Were We Controlled". She had never made (to my knowledge) any similar comments about the entire family - only that she suspected Lee was a US govt agent. So I have no doubt that the book caused her to make those comments. That doesn't mean they weren't true. I haven't read the book, so I don't know precisely what it claims about the family. However, my own research leads me to think there may something to the "whole family" thing regardless of what is said in "Were we Controlled" and regardless of what Marguerite said in '78.

3. I don't "get" the connection between LHO's hair thinning out and being turned by the Russians. How does thinning hair become a reason to suspect the other? There is a simple, logical, non-suspicious explanation for the thinning hair. It's in the volumes.


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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 7:29 am

Albert Rossi wrote:I wonder if David Talbot is aware of this.


Perhaps Jim Di could email this to him?

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 8:06 am


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 8:42 am

greg parker wrote:Some quick responses:

1. If the original photo posted was taken on 11/22 and the photo of Robert was taken on 11/24 then the original photo posted here can't be Robert. His hair could not have grown that quickly. Rowland (from memory) was wearing a white short sleeve shirt on the day of the assassination. Does the photo look more like RO than AR -- YES. But if the dates are right, I don't see how it can be RO.

Lee's response:

Rowland may have been wearing a short sleeved white shirt but for this photo to have any chance of being Rowland he appears to have ditched an overcoat and some gloves.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat. 
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.  
**********************************************************************
Mr. SPECTER - You were wearing gloves on that day? 
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER - Was it a chilly day? 
Mr. ROWLAND - The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy. 
Mr. SPECTER - Was it cold enough to have gloves? 
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat. 
Mr. SPECTER - Proceed, and tell us what you did. 

As far as the hair of the Oswald lookalike is concerned I've been flipping between both photos for the last twenty minutes and cannot fathom how you have come to such a definitive conclusion based upon hair length.  I'm no barber to be sure and you may be correct but it's certainly not jumping from the page at me and I'm also no expert on light in photographs and it's effect on hair.

We also have to be certain that the photo I posted is definitely from the 24th outside Parkland.  That's what the caption read but I'll double check it against some other things.

As I said before, if it's not REO or a pod person, then I don't know what the hell is going on, Greg.  This guy most certainly is an Oswald lookalike if ever there was one and we have him outside the TSBD being held by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 9:03 am

Lee Farley wrote:
greg parker wrote:Some quick responses:

1. If the original photo posted was taken on 11/22 and the photo of Robert was taken on 11/24 then the original photo posted here can't be Robert. His hair could not have grown that quickly. Rowland (from memory) was wearing a white short sleeve shirt on the day of the assassination. Does the photo look more like RO than AR -- YES. But if the dates are right, I don't see how it can be RO.

Lee's response:

Rowland may have been wearing a short sleeved white shirt but for this photo to have any chance of being Rowland he appears to have ditched an overcoat and some gloves.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat. 
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. 
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember? 
Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.  
**********************************************************************
Mr. SPECTER - You were wearing gloves on that day? 
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER - Was it a chilly day? 
Mr. ROWLAND - The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy. 
Mr. SPECTER - Was it cold enough to have gloves? 
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat. 
Mr. SPECTER - Proceed, and tell us what you did. 

As far as the hair of the Oswald lookalike is concerned I've been flipping between both photos for the last twenty minutes and cannot fathom how you have come to such a definitive conclusion based upon hair length.  I'm no barber to be sure and you may be correct but it's certainly not jumping from the page at me and I'm also no expert on light in photographs and it's effect on hair.

We also have to be certain that the photo I posted is definitely from the 24th outside Parkland.  That's what the caption read but I'll double check it against some other things.

As I said before, if it's not REO or a pod person, then I don't know what the hell is going on, Greg.  This guy most certainly is an Oswald lookalike if ever there was one and we have him outside the TSBD being held by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office.

Lee, I think I may have been recalling the later interview with Rowland where he was wearing a short-sleeve white shirt.

On the hair length... it does look shorter at the back in your "look-alike" than in the RO pic. Maybe that's just me. And I did qualify by saying if the shots were taken on the days indicated. Look - I continue to agree - the guy looks far more like RO and than he does Rowland.

Is it the same guy in the film I posted? If so, he is acting like a witness, not a suspect.
`

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 9:13 am

greg parker wrote:

Greg, the Youtube video you have posted does not appear on my iPad.  I can hear it but cannot see it.  Can you post a URL link underneath please?

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 9:14 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuFOp02l8EI

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 9:15 am

If it is the same person, then we need to consider the possibility he is neither Rowland nor Robert Oswald.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 9:28 am

Could be him.  There are a few glimpses that suggest it could be the lookalike in the photo.  Similar in appearance.  White short sleeved shirt.

I know this was discussed a while back over at the EF but was there ever any resolution as to why someone would be on film pointing to the origin of the shots and not appear in the record?  Especially in light of the fact that we now have a possible photograph of the same person in the grip of a Dallas County Sheriff's Officer?


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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 11:46 am

We need a complete list of all witnesses to activity on the upper floors and go through a process of elimination similar to what happened with PM.

I suspect you're right - that this process will eliminate all known witnesses. But let's be sure.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 7:10 am

greg parker wrote:We need a complete list of all witnesses to activity on the upper floors and go through a process of elimination similar to what happened with PM.

I suspect you're right - that this process will eliminate all known witnesses. But let's be sure.

Richard Hocking as produced the list at the ed forum. I have crossed out those that I know off the top can't be our guy:

Howard Brennan
Richard Randolph Carr
Malcolm Couch
James Crawford
Robert Edwards
Amos Euins
Ronald Fischer
Ruby Henderson
Robert H. Jackson
Arnold Rowland
Norman Similas
Carolyn Walther
James Worrel

----------------------

Depending on his age, I believe the person we see is James Crawfard:

Mr. BALL - Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?
Mr. CRAWFORD - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?
Mr. CRAWFORD - Allen Swett.
Mr. BALL - What did you tell him?
Mr. CRAWFORD - I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor - the window in the far east corner.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?
Mr. CRAWFORD - I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been - I say "the man" - there had not been anyone apprehended.
Mr. BALL - How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him?
Mr. CRAWFORD - My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10 - 20 minutes. My guess would be around 15 - 20 minutes.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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While looking down the corridor
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by beowulf on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 8:32 am

I don't think Oswald Lookalike (OL) is Robert,
1. Robert's nose is more hooked and has a fleshy tip.
2. Robert's hairline is more receded than OL
3. Robert's jawline is weaker than OL's.

If it was Robert at TSBD , it would have been logical for the authorities to build him into the story-- either as Lee's witting accomplice (if its a conspiracy) or as an innocent bystander. If its not a conspiracy then Robert's story is he came down to his brother's workplace on his lunch break to get a front row seat to the President's parade and hopefully get a chance to say hello to his brother (a logical thing, I think, for a family member to do). That happenstance would certainly would be an elegant way to explain first floor sightings of Lee Oswald, witnesses simply mistook Robert for Lee.

Having said that, it is an interesting picture. For a cop to be holding someone's arm like that makes OL look less like a witness than a suspect. Of course the Deputy Sheriff (or whoever that is with the bow-tie-- looks old to be a uniform cop)  may be in on it and is simply escorting an accomplice away from the scene of the crime.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 8:46 am

Someone ought to contract an actuary to do a study of the odds of witnesses and bystanders bearing resemblance to the prime suspect. I guess that would just be a subset of the more general case:  the odds of any two people picked at random from a crowd bearing a likeness to each other.  I know that determining what constitutes a likeness is subjective, but still, it stupefies me how many instances of supposed lookalikes for LHO have popped up in this case.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 9:20 am

beowulf wrote:Having said that, it is an interesting picture. For a cop to be holding someone's arm like that makes OL look less like a witness than a suspect. Of course the Deputy Sheriff (or whoever that is with the bow-tie-- looks old to be a uniform cop) may be in on it and is simply escorting an accomplice away from the scene of the crime.

I would have thought a suspect warranted two cops and handcuffs?

According to Allan Sweatt, that is what happened to this suspect:

Shortly after, a DPD officer brought a boy in a sport coat up and said "here is the man that had done the shooting". As officers started to question him, the crowd began to talk and pass the word around that this was the individual that had shot the President. At that time, in the company of the city officers, I sent 2 deputy sheriff's to take this man into custody and to take him to the Sheriff's office. Also Inspector Sawyer was informed of this and he sent a DPD detective to the Sheriff's office to talk to the boy.

Sweatt also said:
At this time, Inspector Sawyer of the DPD came to the front of the building and started taking names of witnesses and I suggested to inspector Sawyer that I get two deputies and send the witnesses to the Sheriff's Office for statements instead of letting the witnesses leave the scene. Inspector Sawyer agreed with this plan and as witnesses were brought together they were taken directly across the street to the Sheriff's Office to wait until statements could be taken.

If this person was James Crawford, it does present a problem in that there is no existing first day statement by Crawford. I have to wonder whether what he said later had to be deep-sixed, and if he was coerced into toning it down for the FBI and WC?

If it is not Crawford, we can go back to square one because I think I have now eliminated all others from the list, and I don't think there are any same day statements which describe the scene as we see it.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 9:27 am

Greg:

Sweatt's "suspect" had a sport(s) coat.

Also, we must always bear in mind that "boy" had more than a single definition in 1963 Texas.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 9:37 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:Greg:

Sweatt's "suspect" had a sport(s) coat.

Also, we must always bear in mind that "boy" had more than a single definition in 1963 Texas.

Yep. He did. I quoted that to demonstrate how suspects were escorted away (with two cops) - not to suggest anything else. Only that our man was not a suspect (because of the lack of a two cop escort).

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
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            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by beowulf on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 10:08 am

I would have thought a suspect warranted two cops and handcuffs?...
"I sent 2 deputy sheriff's to take this man into custody and to take him to the Sheriff's office."
When the police arrest someone-- because they have probable cause that they committed a crime-- they put handcuffs on them, Nowadays they also read him his rights but the Miranda decision was two years in the future. I don't think they had probable cause to arrest anyone there unless they were found inside the TSBD (in which they could be booked for trespassing), so even if they had a suspect, they would ask him to come in to give a statement.  Since no one is more anxious to look innocent than a guilty man, no doubt any suspect would agree to come in to give a witness statement. Of course, you don't put handcuffs on a witness, but if you don't want the suspect going anywhere you might put a hand on him.

Whether or not, there was any evidence against the suspect above put into custody by two deputies, he had to to be taken into custody for his own protection. See, "the crowd began to talk and pass the word around that this was the individual that had shot the President."
Men have been lynched in Texas for less. It was prudent to get the suspect out of there immediately before the crowd had the idea to rush the officers and grab the suspect.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 10:22 am

beowulf wrote:I would have thought a suspect warranted two cops and handcuffs?...
"I sent 2 deputy sheriff's to take this man into custody and to take him to the Sheriff's office."
When the police arrest someone-- because they have probable cause that they committed a crime-- they put handcuffs on them, Nowadays they also read him his rights but the Miranda decision was two years in the future. I don't think they had probable cause to arrest anyone there unless they were found inside the TSBD (in which they could be booked for trespassing), so even if they had a suspect, they would ask him to come in to give a statement.  Since no one is more anxious to look innocent than a guilty man, no doubt any suspect would agree to come in to give a witness statement. Of course, you don't put handcuffs on a witness, but if you don't want the suspect going anywhere you might put a hand on him.

Whether or not, there was any evidence against the suspect above put into custody by two deputies, he had to to be taken into custody for his own protection. See, "the crowd began to talk and pass the word around that this was the individual that had shot the President."
Men have been lynched in Texas for less. It was prudent to get the suspect out of there immediately before the crowd had the idea to rush the officers and grab the suspect.

Point taken -- but the guy Sweatt references still had a two man escort, and I don't think holding the arm of a person while you guide him across the street is inconsistent with it being a witness. Do you think the guy in the film I posted is the same guy shown in the image Lee posted? If it's the same person - he is almost certainly a witness and no more than that.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 10:37 am


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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 10:58 am

Thanks Albert.

No face in the world is perfectly symmetrical, so the different profiles make it a bit harder -- but my money is on it being the same person.

And if it is - he is a witness.

If he is a KNOWN witness in the records, it is almost certainly James Crawford.

If it is not Crawford, then who?

And if Crawford or other known/unknown witness -- where is the first day statement?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:00 am

I think Norman Similas should be struck from the list of witnesses. 

I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, but this is one of the things that I spent about a decade trying to track down 20-30 years ago.  It was one of about a dozen possible Canadian angles to the tale (Bloomfield, Geisbrecht, LHO in Montreal, both "Oswald" weapons traced to Canadian gun dealers, etc.)

It can be substantiated that Similas was in Dallas, as a photographer for a Canadian beverage magazine, covering the bottlers' convention taking place that week.  (It's also ostensibly why Richard Nixon was there.)   After that, things get very murky.

Despite being quoted as a witness in media reports of the day, nobody has yet managed to locate Similas in any film or photos taken that day.  Not even Norman could point to himself in the extent photos.  I know, because I asked him to.  I also put the same question - at different times - to a son and (as I recall) nephew, also without success.  If he was there, he was lost in the throng some place. 

Also, being a professional photographer who claims to have taken photos in Dealey Plaza, Norman should have had his camera(s) with him.  That alone should exclude him from being on the list of possibles cited above.

All that said, here's the only photo of Norman (that I've been able to locate) taken at about the same point in time.


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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:06 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:I think Norman Similas should be struck from the list of witnesses. 

I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, but this is one of the things that I spent about a decade trying to track down 20-30 years ago.  It was one of about a dozen possible Canadian angles to the tale (Bloomfield, Geisbrecht, LHO in Montreal, both "Oswald" weapons traced to Canadian gun dealers, etc.)

It can be substantiated that Similas was in Dallas, as a photographer for a Canadian beverage magazine, covering the bottlers' convention taking place that week.  (It's also ostensibly why Richard Nixon was there.)   After that, things get very murky.

Despite being quoted as a witness in media reports of the day, nobody has yet managed to locate Similas in any film or photos taken that day.  Not even Norman could point to himself in the extent photos.  I know, because I asked him to.  I also put the same question - at different times - to a son and (as I recall) nephew, also without success.  If he was there, he was lost in the throng some place. 

Also, being a professional photographer who claims to have taken photos in Dealey Plaza, Norman should have had his camera(s) with him.  That alone should exclude him from being on the list of possibles cited above.

All that said, here's the only photo of Norman (that I've been able to locate) taken at about the same point in time.


Thanks Robert. That confirms what I already thought - it is definitely not him.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by greg parker on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:10 am

From the KNOWN witness, we are down to:
James Crawford
Robert Edwards
Ronald Fischer

Age and/or other factors rule the latter two out.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:18 am

greg parker wrote:

No face in the world is perfectly symmetrical, so the different profiles make it a bit harder -- but my money is on it being the same person.

I agree.  The silhouette, nose, lips, chin, hair around ears and ears seem to match.

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Re: A New Oswald Lookalike

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