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Randle & Frazier Contradictions

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 5:08 am

Martin Hay wrote:
greg parker wrote:
 yet Mike Paine, veteran of the Korean war - who handled it multiple times - thought it was tent pegs?

Greg, I'm guessing that's from his WC testimony? Could you give me the page numbers if you know them? I don't wanna have to re-read the whole damn thing.
Martin, try IX:437:


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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 5:13 am

Albert Rossi wrote:Walt Brown's index gives:  CE 254, letter, LHO to US Embassy, Moscow, Dec. 1, 1961.  XVI, 713; I, 249.

Is that what you're after, Lee?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0369a.htm

No, that's not the one, Albert.  I believe some of the early CE numbers were changed.

Commission Exhibit C-254 was a duffel bag and, once again, it appears a shell game of sorts has occurred regarding it because I don't seem to be able to find it.

Commission Exhibit A-1, I believe, turned into CE126 and was the blue bag of Oswald's that Gladys Johnson claimed she saw Oswald heading to the Oak Cliff laundromat with the weekend before the assassination:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/93/Photo_naraevid_CE126-1.jpg

I want to see the dimensions of the duffel bags LHO owned because in response to Ed's question above about if he was the assassin then why didn't he just take the rifle in the blanket.  My response is why didn't he use one of his duffel bags?


Last edited by Lee Farley on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 5:16 am

OK, Lee, I kind of figured it wasn't that simple (esp. for a seasoned WC researcher as yourself).

I'll see if I can find anything else out using Walt's index.

Don't you think, though, offhand, that carrying a duffle bag or a blanket into the TSBD would be a little more conspicuous than a paper wrapper (I mean, all things being equal and we accept, arguendo, that LHO carried anything into the TSBD)?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 5:48 am

Albert Rossi wrote:OK, Lee, I kind of figured it wasn't that simple (esp. for a seasoned WC researcher as yourself).

I'll see if I can find anything else out using Walt's index.

Don't you think, though, offhand, that carrying a duffle bag or a blanket into the TSBD would be a little more conspicuous than a paper wrapper (I mean, all things being equal and we accept, arguendo, that LHO carried anything into the TSBD)?

I do on the example of the blanket, yes.  However, on the example of the duffel bag it would only be conspicuous if it had never happened before, Albert.  If what Ruth Paine is saying about Oswald's laundry is the truth then Oswald had to take his dirty laundry to the TSBD on a Friday and bring his clean laundry with him on a Monday morning.  Yet there is not one person on record claiming they ever saw him with a bag (duffel or otherwise) and as I pointed out on the Redlich memo post - the Warren Commission avoided probing it because they missed it during BWF's testimony and they did not follow up on Redlich's questions.

So, Oswald either:

a) Did take a bag (of some sort) with him each time Frazier picked him up in Irving and dropped him off at the TSBD as well as pick him up at the TSBD and drop him in Irving.  Dirty undies one way, clean undies the other
b) Didn't have his laundry done at 2515 West Fifth street 
c) He lived at 2515 West Fifth street as per the theory of Greg Parker
d) He lived at the Randle house or another local Irving address

I don't believe Oswald took a rifle to the TSBD that morning whether it was in a blanket, a paper bag, a cornflake box, or a large hat.  But there is another problem with the official narrative when it comes to Oswald's dirty undies and shirts.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:00 am

Albert Rossi wrote: Don't you think, though, offhand, that carrying a duffle bag or a blanket into the TSBD would be a little more conspicuous than a paper wrapper (I mean, all things being equal and we accept, arguendo, that LHO carried anything into the TSBD)?

P.S. Albert, forgot to mention, no one seemed to think it was conspicuous for Warren Caster bring two rifles into the building on November 20.  Not even Roy Truly and William Shelley who were actually handling them.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:05 am


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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Martin Hay on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:06 am

Albert Rossi wrote:
Martin Hay wrote:
greg parker wrote:
 yet Mike Paine, veteran of the Korean war - who handled it multiple times - thought it was tent pegs?

Greg, I'm guessing that's from his WC testimony? Could you give me the page numbers if you know them? I don't wanna have to re-read the whole damn thing.
Martin, try IX:437:


Thanks, Albert.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:11 am

Lee, I see where you're headed with this.

I've almost finished scanning all the exhibits listed in Brown's index, can't find the one you're interested in.

This would be the famous duffle bag which LHO supposedly used to bring the rifle to New Orleans and back, that was loaded into Ruth Paine's car at the end of the summer ...

Certainly bringing the rifles into the building on November 20 should have sent off alarm bells.  But if you are constructing a framed up scenario, I just thought it would sound less likely that the assassin brought a rifle into the building wrapped in a blanket than in a paper bag.  Your point about a laundry bag being suited if it could be claimed he did this regularly is well taken.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:13 am

Gladys Johnson testimony:


Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and he had his clothes with him. 
Mr. BALL. He had his clothes with him? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he just had a little old bag of clothes, these little bags you get when you are in the service. 
Mr. BALL. A duffelbag? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. That's all he had? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. That's all he had. 

Mary Bledsoe's testimony


Mr. BALL - Will you describe the bag? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't remember where---seemed like it was a kind of a duffelbag. 
Mr. BALL - The kind the men in the service put their clothes in? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know. 


Both "landladies" spoke of the duffel bag.  In neither testimony was the actual duffel bag (of which Oswald had two) introduced and in Bledsoe's testimony the question of which bag Oswald had goes on for page after page.  Yet they introduced no bags into the record.

Next up: Ruth Paine

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:35 am

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, I see where you're headed with this.

I've almost finished scanning all the exhibits listed in Brown's index, can't find the one you're interested in.

This would be the famous duffle bag which LHO supposedly used to bring the rifle to New Orleans and back, that was loaded into Ruth Paine's car at the end of the summer ...

Certainly bringing the rifles into the building on November 20 should have sent off alarm bells.  But if you are constructing a framed up scenario, I just thought it would sound less likely that the assassin brought a rifle into the building wrapped in a blanket than in a paper bag.  Your point about a laundry bag being suited if it could be claimed he did this regularly is well taken.

Exactly, Albert.

If Lee Oswald had any sort of routine taking clothes to and from the TSBD then does the following not make more sense:

1. If he was the lone assassin he would take the rifle to work in his duffel bag.  Who on earth would spend God knows how long sticking a paper bag together that could fall apart on the way when everyone knows you take your dirty and clean clothes to work every Friday and Monday?

2.  If Oswald was set up then you would leave one of the two duffel bags on the sixth floor.

Now, forgive me here because I'm no assassin and I'm not a contract agent for MI6 but for the two examples above not to have happened I immediately jump to an assumption that no dirty/clean clothes routine ever took place.  And the main reason I jump to that conclusion is because not one question was ever asked of anybody who worked with him about any such routine because the answers would probably not have been what was required.  

There is another area that kind of relates to this and that is the subject of Lee's lunch of November 22d.  According to Frazier, for the first time ever, Lee did not bring his lunch with him that day.  Which means if Lee Oswald ate that afternoon then he either stole someone else's lunch or he bought it.  The usual place for the TSBD employees to buy lunch was a catering van situated close to the building.  Did anybody investigate whether he bought his lunch from the catering van?  Well, if they did no one bothered to write it down.  By a strange coincidence Buell Wesley Frazier happened to have the exact same lunch as Lee Oswald that day.

Rule of thumb - if it was easy and important to investigate something yet they didn't do it then it's something to focus our attention on.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 6:44 am

Hi Lee

Are you saying it is likely or possible that LHO did his laundry at the boarding house?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 7:02 am

Well, Lee, no luck on my part. 

Maybe if you squint hard enough you can find it in this picture (sort of like, "where's Waldo?" Wink)


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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 7:18 am

Albert Rossi wrote: Um. No. Well, Lee, no luck on my part. 

Maybe if you squint hard enough you can find it in this picture (sort of like, "where's Waldo?" Wink)




LOL.  It's in the napkins box.

I've had no luck myself, Albert.  I'll keep looking.

Fun fact of the day regarding the photograph you have posted above; did you know Ruth Paine's original Warren Commission testimony took place in her home?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 7:44 am

Traveller11 wrote:Hi Lee

Are you saying it is likely or possible that LHO did his laundry at the boarding house?

Robert,

I don't know where he did his laundry.  

Gladys Johnson claimed that the weekend of November 18 & 19 he was seen leaving 1026 North Beckley with this "blue bag" (that looks black to me) heading toward the Oak Cliff laundromat:



If his laundry was generally done by Marina and Ruth Paine at 2515 West Fifth Street then for him to get his washing there each Friday he would have to have taken it by bus from Oak Cliff in one of his bags, like the one above, stored it in the TSBD before starting work then at the end of his shift retrieve it and get into Frazier's car with the bag over to Irving.

If the routine outlined by Ruth Paine is accurate then between October 16 and November 22 this to-ing and fro-ing with washing would have happened on four occasions.  Yet no one off their own bat who worked at the TSBD mentioned it and no one was explicitly asked whether they remember Oswald with a bag of any kind.  And to top it off we seem to have a Commission Exhibit that has gone walkabout and it happens to be a navy duffle bag - which has got my attention.

You may not know this but I have recently raised questions as to whether it was actually Lee Oswald who lived at 1026 North Beckley and this just adds to them.  Greg and I have discussed the fact that no investigation ever took place into how Oswald got to and from work during the week when the assumption was made that he would have used the bus.  Employees who use buses as a general rule have regular buses (Helen Markham) and regular routines mean probable witnesses especially if the person in question has a large bag with them every Friday morning and Monday evening.  But no investigation ever took place into this. Norman Redlich, IMO, could see the problem here and this is why he asked Liebeler to follow up with Wesley Frazier through the FBI and it's not in the least bit surprising to me that sod all was done.

I'm still trying to weave this together in my head because as it stands it's all very confusing.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 8:28 am

If Oswald did his washing at the laundromat on the weekend before the assassination according to Mrs Johnson, why did he feel the need to be there again until just after midnight on the 20th? Two laundry trips in a few days seems excessive. He was going to Irving the next day. Why not take to work and get Marina to do it? If I'm going to kill the Pres on Friday am I really so concerned about my laundry?

Also the 20th is the same day he is seen at 10 in the morning eating at Dobbs house. Certainly some strange behaviour going on.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 8:46 am

Colin Crow wrote:Also the 20th is the same day he is seen at 10 in the morning eating at Dobbs house. Certainly some strange behaviour going on.

Colin,

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Dobbs House sighting was Larry Crafard.  No doubt whatsoever.

I know everyone has different interests in this case i.e. ballstics, autopsy, physical evidence etc but this stuff, the logistics of events and the statements of witnesses is endlessly fascinating to me.

Mary Dowling. from Dobbs most certainly interacted with Crafard, IMO.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 9:03 am

Interestingly, in a major article by Detroit Free Press correspondent Gene Roberts he goes through the entire case and the following segment appears:

"There was one other thing Mrs. Randall noticed.  Lee Oswald was carrying a package.  It was something long - maybe two or three feet or more - and wrapped in brown paper, maybe a paper laundry bag."

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 9:22 am

Discussion concerning the elusive Commission Exhibit C-254 (Olive Duffle Bag) and also Commission Exhibit A-1 that is the "blue" travel bag that later became CE126:




C-254 was supposed to be what was known as a "Bee 4" duffle bag.  Allegedly with dimensions of 24" x 18" x 11" yet Lee Oswald according to Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald owned two duffle bags and one was his old Marine Corp duffle bag.  Can't find a photograph or officially referenced exhibit numbers for either.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:10 am

D
Lee Farley wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Also the 20th is the same day he is seen at 10 in the morning eating at Dobbs house. Certainly some strange behaviour going on.

Colin,

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Dobbs House sighting was Larry Crafard.  No doubt whatsoever.

I know everyone has different interests in this case i.e. ballstics, autopsy, physical evidence etc but this stuff, the logistics of events and the statements of witnesses is endlessly fascinating to me.

Mary Dowling. from Dobbs most certainly interacted with Crafard, IMO.
I was under the impression that "Oswald" had breakfast at the Dobbs House. If he did would they get him confused with Crafard? Or was it Crafard that regularly had breakfast there and they confused him with Oswald?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:11 am

C-254 was supposed to be what was known as a "Bee 4" duffle bag.  Allegedly with dimensions of 24" x 18" x 11" yet Lee Oswald according to Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald owned two duffle bags and one was his old Marine Corp duffle bag.  Can't find a photograph or officially referenced exhibit numbers for either.
Yeah, and the dimensions present the same problem as the wrapper/paper bag:  no way the rifle, even broken down, could have fit in it without the barrel sticking out.

But this photo was shown to Johnson, Bledsoe, and Paine, and then is deep-sixed.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:32 am

Lee:
 
When I was in the US Navy in the 1970s, I had what was called a "sea bag," the Navy/Marine term for duffel bag. Olive drab in color, it was made of heavy canvas and it loaded from the top. The exact dimensions escape me after all these years, but I would say it was about 36" x 12" x 12", maybe even a tad larger. You could pack a lot of shit into one. It looked like this (some didn't have the shoulder straps):



Since Oswald was a Marine, I wouldn't be surprised if he still had some of his old gear in 1963. Perhaps his bag (C-254) looked similar to this?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:41 am

Good sized sea bag. Big enough to carry a broken down Carcano, his lunch PLUS the curtain rods in.

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Albert Rossi on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:42 am

WH III:19-20:

Sure seems like big heavy bags here.  This whole business is beginning to sound eerily like the Frazier-dimension-of-paper-bag (24"? 27? 28? 36?).

BTW, it is really nauseating to read Ruth Paine's testimony.  She is such an unassuming, simple-souled, genteel passive-aggressive snake.  This whole business follows first her claiming she really thought Oswald only wanted to be gentlemanly when he offered to pack in New Orleans, but that she should have suspected him.  And then the whole "he never mentioned Mexico", but look what I found at home.  My stomach turns.



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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by Guest on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:51 am

Stan Dane wrote:Lee:
 
When I was in the US Navy in the 1970s, I had what was called a "sea bag," the Navy/Marine term for duffel bag. Olive drab in color, it was made of heavy canvas and it loaded from the top. The exact dimensions escape me after all these years, but I would say it was about 36" x 12" x 12", maybe even a tad larger. You could pack a lot of shit into one. It looked like this (some didn't have the shoulder straps):



Since Oswald was a Marine, I wouldn't be surprised if he still had some of his old gear in 1963. Perhaps his bag (C-254) looked similar to this?

I think through the record they are trying to give us the impression that C-254 was much smaller than the one above, Stan.  But I guessed a shell-game early doors on these bags and I now sense something is being hidden from us concerning them.  He most definitely still had his marine corp duffle from what I can make out from Ruth Paine's testimony.

Why would they want the duffle bags to disappear?

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Re: Randle & Frazier Contradictions

Post by greg parker on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 10:56 am

Colin Crow wrote:D
Lee Farley wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Also the 20th is the same day he is seen at 10 in the morning eating at Dobbs house. Certainly some strange behaviour going on.

Colin,

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Dobbs House sighting was Larry Crafard.  No doubt whatsoever.

I know everyone has different interests in this case i.e. ballstics, autopsy, physical evidence etc but this stuff, the logistics of events and the statements of witnesses is endlessly fascinating to me.

Mary Dowling. from Dobbs most certainly interacted with Crafard, IMO.
I was under the impression that "Oswald" had breakfast at the Dobbs House. If he did would they get him confused with Crafard? Or was it Crafard that regularly had breakfast there and they confused him with Oswald?

Colin, as with Lee, there is zero doubt in my mind that most sightings of a 2nd Oswald in Dallas/Oak Cliff were actually of Larry Crafard.





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