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Question Concerning Time

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 9:50 am

And if you look at the attachments that Warner and Moore use as supporting evidence at the bottom of this page:



They use the Davenport and Bardin report:



So after putting on my deerstalker and lighting my pipe, I deduce that the original time was changed at some point after December 1, 1963, when the Warner-Moore report was submitted.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 12:14 pm

Lee Farley wrote:

Thanks Lee, this is the first time I have seen this. I thought it was lost like so many other things.

You're right, it does seem to say Time of Injury as 1:18 and then show death occurring at 1:15.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 3:04 pm



The FBI report on Tippit's death seems to have an altered time, as well.

I am trying to find the form for, I believe, the request for autopsy in the Tippit murder. As I recall, the times in it appear to be altered, as well.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

Found it. Here is the authorized permit for autopsy on JD Tippit.



Note the time of death, and that he was pronounced dead on arrival at Methodist Hospital.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 4:29 pm

Traveller11 wrote:

The FBI report on Tippit's death seems to have an altered time, as well.

I am trying to find the form for, I believe, the request for autopsy in the Tippit murder. As I recall, the times in it appear to be altered, as well.
Yes, another elevated 2, just like in the other report.


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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 10:39 pm

Lee Farley wrote:At least they tried harder than they did on this one, Ed.  The problem with the document below is regardless of which time is used, 1:00 PM, 1:05 PM, 1:10 PM or 1:15 PM, Tippit was either pronounced dead 15, 10 or 5 minutes before he was shot or he was pronounced dead 30 seconds after he was shot.




I'm gonna propose some possibilities that may not make any difference but are something to consider.

Assuming that erasure would be a more standard practice than the new-fangled white-out, the SOR by Davenport & Bardin seems to indicate an original time of 1:00 pm subsequently lightened (presumably by erasure) and typed over as 1:15. In Lee's zoom-in crop the rounded zeros are fairly apparent but still not light enough to make the "15" appear clearly; in the full version of the SOR, the "15" attempt is clearer even though it could just as well be a "19."

This could at least indicate that originally the time was assumed to be 1:00 PM until it was recognized that this wouldn't fit the timing sequence for Oswald to have been Tippit's shooter. You'd think time wouldn't be so flexible when it's a question of when the doctor pronounced him dead.

The other thing that occurred to me is the floating "2" in different typeface on the transcribed funeral home record. Instead of a "correction" whited-out or otherwise covered/erased, it occurred to me that it could just as well have been left blank and the "2" added in later: as in "1: 5 p.m." becomes "1:25 p.m." It's not clear to me why someone would do that, other than not being initially certain of the time of death (i.e., knowing it had a "5" at the end but unsure if it was 1:05, 1:15 or 1:25, so the minute area was left blank until the official time was confirmed?). Then the "2" was typed in on a different typewriter & typeface and (naturally) out of sync with the original spacing? And even got that wrong if the official time of death was 1:15 PM ....???

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 11:06 pm

Dan, having worked in high pressure situations which require accurate reporting, I know that some things can and do get "fudged" - and I am sure that happened more than once over that weekend in Dallas. If pressed, I could probably find some examples of "innocent" messing with the records and/or examples of actual incompetence. 

I am however, having a hard time fitting this into either of those categories. FWIW only.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 1:08 am

EXCELLENT WORK ALL!! cheers Touchdown!
Now the extra point.

If they say they lied (fudged the truth) is that not another lie?
How can we believe anything they say when this is still floated as an evidentiary life boat...

Example:
http://www.wfaa.com/jfk/Wallet-mystery-from-Tippit-murder-scene-settled-50-years-later-232765681.html

Was that article proof they are admitting they lied and changed things to fit Oswald and Oswald alone? Yes!

Why doesn't Rookstool, with whom I've spoken, ask what time the camera crew arrived with Aynesworth? Because the answer would preclude it from being Oswald as the shooter. They arrived at 1:05, 1:10 at the latest, by driving at high speed, swerving in and out of traffic and using a illegal flashing light to get through traffic and to the scene in 5-10 minutes...did they film a body? Did they film a ambulance load the body of Tippit...NO
This is a sham of a farce of a con of a fraud!

“… It has intrigued me that Aynesworth was so convinced in his conversation with me that Tippit had been killed around 1 p.m. Aynesworth is extraordinarily proud of the fact that he is the only reporter in the United States to have been at all four major scenes (the assassination, the Tippit killing immediately after, the arrest of Oswald in the Texas Theater, and the murder of Oswald in the police basement). When I praised Mr. Aynesworth for this and suggested that perhaps he should have been considered for the Pulitzer Prize (rather than Mr. [Merriman] Smith whom Mr. Aynesworth claims does not deserve the prize as another Dallas reporter did all his, Smith’s, writing for him), Mr. Aynesworth modestly admitted to an oversight on the part of the committee, but continued to speak at great length over his four unique experiences. When I asked Mr. Aynesworth how and when he first heard about Tippit, he replied: “I was standing near the Texas Book Building, all the other reporters had gone to Parkland (Hospital), but I felt a story was breaking near the building, when I heard a squad radio blast out that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff. This was around one o’clock. I ran to the car and went with it to Patton and Tenth. I had a hunch that the policeman’s murder was tied in with the assassination. I got to the Tenth Street area about 1:05, no later than 1:10 p.m. …” [1]~ Shirley Martin

Discounting Virginia (1:30!!) We are left with Barbara at 1pm.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/28/2829-001.gif

Sam and Ted said 1pm.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339106/m1/1/

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/28/2825-001.gif

Case Opened! Get me a Grand Jury STAT!

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 1:10 am

The totality of the evidence that we possess strongly suggests that the Tippit murder was much closer to 1:00 PM than it ever was to 1:15 PM.

When looking at the Oak Cliff shooting we cannot keep looking at it in isolation away from the other official evidence timelines (e.g. when the rifle was allegedly discovered) because some are inextricably linked but I'm sure glad we haven't fallen into the trap of using the official Oswald timeline when trying to make sense of Tippit here because I believe we are all completely certain that his timeline (whatever it might have been) has absolutely nothing to do with working out what time Tippit was killed.

This part of the case has always been swamp material because whenever debate has taken place regarding it the main emphasis has always been whether Oswald had enough time to get there.  Fuck that!  It's got nothing to do with it.  The same way whether Oswald could descend the TSBD stairs after the shooting has always been a waste of time.  These are the red herrings that have tied us in knots for decades.

The paper bag
The Magic Bullet
The Oswald journey
Oswald the loner and wife beater
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc

All fluff that has no bearing on the actual nature of the case other than the fact that they fraudulently relate to the man accused of masterminding it all.

If the Tippit murder has nothing to do with Oswald then why do always feel it necessary to use the Oswald timeline parameters when trying to make sense of it?

If it wasn't Oswald, and it most certainly wasn't, then the we have less limitations when discussing the evidence.

What seems to be tying a lot of researchers hands (including my own) when discussing  nowadays is the police dispatch transcripts. We seem to think there is something dodgy about the but then still use them as time stamps.

The truth is, when it comes to the Tippit murder, the transmission transcripts reek to high heaven.  The differences in the several versions we have been left as "evidence" absolutely tie you in knots when trying to use them.

As far as I'm concerned the first call that was placed to the DPD dispatcher from Tippit's vehicle after he was shot was from Domingo Benavides.  He got through, he told them the exact address where the shooting occurred.  The Channel II dispatcher knew exactly where the shooting had taken place and he (Henslee) gave the exact address out.  Yet Channel I according to the transcripts created a whole deal of unnecessary confusion by giving out multiple addresses most of which were wrong.

In total, there were six different addresses given out over the police radio that afternoon regarding the Tippit shooting location.  When the very first caller, on the actual radio of the dead officer, gave them the exact address.

The confusion created by the variety of different addresses didn't seem to stop Kenneth Hudson Croy (Dallas Police reservist allegedly off duty) getting to the scene within 90 seconds of what we are told was the T. F. Bowley call and, according to his testimony, stood talking with Helen Markham for 10 minutes before any other police officers or squads arrived.

More to come on Kenneth Hudson Croy.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 3:19 am

"don't ask him what time it is, He lives for that, its in his blood."

http://www.anyclip.com/movies/dragnet/friday-and-streebeck-debrief-the-captain/#!quotes/

Those darn officers and their exactness of time!!!


I agree the time was closer to 1pm. More likely it was just before 1pm when Tippit was shot.
Because we know clocks and watches in Dallas only ran fast.. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 3:39 am

greg parker wrote:Dan, having worked in high pressure situations which require accurate reporting, I know that some things can and do get "fudged" - and I am sure that happened more than once over that weekend in Dallas. If pressed, I could probably find some examples of "innocent" messing with the records and/or examples of actual incompetence. 

I am however, having a hard time fitting this into either of those categories. FWIW only.
Likewise, Greg, I've had mucho experience as dispatcher in security (correctional facility & casino control room officer-in-charge), which is why Lee's topic has been so fascinating to me from the start. It would be relatively easy for scenarios to be presented as if things happen in perfect sequence with no "extraneous" issues that arise: like you have 5 other things going on at once and can't immediately answer a telephone, or how long a phone conversation might last when something's being reported to you for relay to others (via radio). All kinds of little details in how things "really happen" that would be easy to obscure if a "perfect scenario" is needed to make a guilty charge against someone (due to a very tight "timing schedule," as we have here). Aside from that, it was pretty much standard procedure in report-writing that correctional officers would confer with each other as to times of events occurring, to make sure we "got it right." This was why in my initial post in the thread I tried to make sense of Lee's original timing issue by trying to envision how things probably went down at the theater: it would make sense that arriving officers would check their watch upon arrival, and probably not check the time again until after Oswald was in physical custody; so an arrival time of 1:40 PM and an arrest time of 1:50 would make sense, and particularly to allow for a realistic interval of about 10 minutes for all likely events to occur. (4 minutes flat being so extremely unlikely as to be impossible and ridiculous, at least to me)

So yes, people screw up and get things wrong at the start and have to make corrections; and times and details do get "fudged" to fit, but here we're talking about a floating time for when a doctor pronounced someone dead, and not just some elasticity in the timing of when the man was shot. That's frickin bizarre.

PS: incidentally and FWIW, I calculated the SS chronology Lee presented, which would've put "Oswald" at the Tippit crime scene at about 1:12 PM, give or take 2-3 minutes either way; and that's assuming their only 30 seconds spent at "the rooming house."

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 5:03 am

If we agree that the earliest documents are more likely to be accurate (as there hadn't yet been sufficient time to notice problematic timeline discrepancies, let alone address them), the death certificate trumps subsequent documents.  It alone impeaches the case against Oswald in re: Tippit.

It seems quite apparent that even the original time of death - DOA @ 1:15  as certified by the attending physician - was untenable when compared with the timeline subsequently devised to inculpate Oswald.  Hence, all subsequent entries in all known reports were altered to adhere to a contrived scenario.  The abundance of alteration seen in this thread only demonstrates as fact what has been contended for a half century.

An earlier time of shooting as detailed by actual witnesses - 1:00 PM or closer thereto - only exacerbates the discrepancy being hidden through document alteration.    

The Secret Service synopsis prepared a week after the fact demonstrates the dilemma precisely. 

Although the document's bruited timeline has Oswald killing Tippit at about 1:12 or thereabouts, it thereafter stipulates as fact that Tippit was actually shot about 12 minutes earlier than the timeline.  This earlier time was no doubt based upon the consensus of witness estimates, for the synopsis reconstructs the event through witnesses’ eyes. 

It is through these anomalies in the documentary record that we can see the gradual development of a stronger case against Oswald, made possible only by fraud and evidence tampering.  Such uniformity in alteration cannot be ascribed to honestly made early mistakes being corrected with the emergence of more genuine data. 

Indeed, the converse it true.  The most genuine data were altered to hide what exonerated Oswald

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 5:48 am

Lee Farley wrote:And if you look at the attachments that Warner and Moore use as supporting evidence at the bottom of this page:



They use the Davenport and Bardin report:



So after putting on my deerstalker and lighting my pipe, I deduce that the original time was changed at some point after December 1, 1963, when the Warner-Moore report was submitted.
Probably an irrelevant observation here, but I see reference to Oswald's pistol in this report. The "official" gun they got from Oswald was a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver. I know some use pistol and revolver interchangeably, but there's a difference and I don't know of anyone experienced and knowledgeable with handguns confusing the two terms. I could be wrong here, but I wouldn't think people experienced in police work would call a revolver a pistol. (I have a Dan Wesson .357 revolver and I'd never call it a pistol.)
 
I recall reading years ago where some police officer at the scene believed that a pistol (automatic) was used to kill Tippit as opposed to a revolver based upon the markings on the spent shells.
 
They may have just copied the words they heard straight from the witnesses who don't know better, but the term caught my eye.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 6:53 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:If we agree that the earliest documents are more likely to be accurate (as there hadn't yet been sufficient time to notice problematic timeline discrepancies, let alone address them), the death certificate trumps subsequent documents.  It alone impeaches the case against Oswald in re: Tippit.

It seems quite apparent that even the original time of death - DOA @ 1:15  as certified by the attending physician - was untenable when compared with the timeline subsequently devised to inculpate Oswald.  Hence, all subsequent entries in all known reports were altered to adhere to a contrived scenario.  The abundance of alteration seen in this thread only demonstrates as fact what has been contended for a half century.

An earlier time of shooting as detailed by actual witnesses - 1:00 PM or closer thereto - only exacerbates the discrepancy being hidden through document alteration.    

The Secret Service synopsis prepared a week after the fact demonstrates the dilemma precisely. 

Although the document's bruited timeline has Oswald killing Tippit at about 1:12 or thereabouts, it thereafter stipulates as fact that Tippit was actually shot about 12 minutes earlier than the timeline.  This earlier time was no doubt based upon the consensus of witness estimates, for the synopsis reconstructs the event through witnesses’ eyes. 

It is through these anomalies in the documentary record that we can see the gradual development of a stronger case against Oswald, made possible only by fraud and evidence tampering.  Such uniformity in alteration cannot be ascribed to honestly made early mistakes being corrected with the emergence of more genuine data. 

Indeed, the converse it true.  The most genuine data were altered to hide what exonerated Oswald
Exactly, Robert.

And this is exactly what transpired with the whole of the Oswald timeline from just prior to the assassination and on. It did not start and end with Tippit.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 13 Jan 2014, 7:27 am

Thanks to all contributors to this thread.  Excellent discussion.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Martin Hay on Tue 14 Jan 2014, 7:43 am

This version of the Supplementary Offense Report appears to me to say 1:15 pm:

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 14 Jan 2014, 8:42 am

It sure does look like 1:15 pm, Martin. Good find.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Redfern on Tue 14 Jan 2014, 9:14 am

The distance between Helen Markham's home at 328 East 9th and the corner of  East 10th and Patton is about 220 yards. The waitress noticed that the time on the clock of the 'washataria' on the first floor as she left was 1.04 pm. Walking at 3 mph, she'd have reached 10th/Patton in 2.5 minutes, placing the confrontation between Tippit and his murderer at exactly the time she said in her Warren testimony.

If she had continued on her way she have reached the bus stop on West Jefferson at about 1.08-.09, just in time for the scheduled 1.12 pm bus.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 14 Jan 2014, 10:42 am

Martin Hay wrote:This version of the Supplementary Offense Report appears to me to say 1:15 pm:

This has hints of alteration as well. The "15" appears darker than any other numbers. There appears smudging in the area also. The denisy of these numbers is similar to the darkness of full stops. When typing on typewriters the user fequently hits this key harder "for emphasis". Consequently it is darker than the rest of the text. This could have easily originally had "00" and been typed over.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Tue 14 Jan 2014, 8:32 pm

The blue copy is a carbon copy and so would show the 1:15 darker if the original white copy top sheet was typed over again.

Using Dale Myers bullshit timeline even if Tippit was pronounced dead at 1:15 pm by Dr. Richard Liguori we have to assume some sort of medical miracle inasmuch as Tippit didn't arrive in the ambulance at Methodist Hospital until 1:23 pm.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Wed 15 Jan 2014, 10:05 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Contents.pdf
Has a list with Crafard notebook listed under Andrew Armstrong
Could someone check the number in Crafard Notebook against Davis phone number!

Apologies for the delay in replying, Ed.  The numbers are the same.

A few decades ago, frustrated over the deliberately haphazard presentation of key evidence by the Commission, I compiled all phone numbers found among the effects of Oswald and Ruby into two separate subsets, as I would locate same in the volumes.  (The MF files would have been a blessing at the time.)

The number listed in Crafard’s book under Leona Miller is the same number attributed to the Davis sisters-in-law in their respective DPD affidavits.  Presumably the Davis girls wouldn’t have hand-written and/or signed an affidavit that contained an incorrect phone number.  The fact that both women provided the same number argues against any lapse in memory, typo or clerical error.  

However, likewise, Crafard had no reason to mistake a phone number given to him over the phone.  Presumably the caller - Leona Miller - wanted a return phone call and left the correct number.  And I believe there’s persuasive evidence that she did receive a return phone call from Jack Ruby, as we’ll soon see.

(You can also find the phone number of “Thomas” among Ruby’s effects.  Invert the final four digits as rendered by Ruby’s hand and you’ve got the phone number of John Thomas Masen, who requires no introduction to the veteran hands here.  While Ruby found it necessary to keep that number among his effects, he also found it necessary to disguise that number, for reasons that should be as obvious as the act is telling.  Masen is not the only commonality between Ruby and the Terrell armory thefts, as Donnell Whitter was a mechanic who worked on Ruby’s cars.  I have hypothesized that Ruby was the informant who delivered the weapons to Whitter and Miller and having done so, was allowed by police to “get away.”)

I suspect that Leona Miller and Larry Miller of the Terrell arms theft(s) are in some respect related.  If so, this would help to explain why a Leona Miller was suddenly calling Ruby not long before the Terrell heist and Larry Miller’s subsequent arrest.  This can be established via the order in which Crafard noted incoming messages for Ruby. 

(Crafard kept Leona’s number among the “permanent” numbers in his notebook, even though he testified that she wasn’t a regular caller.  Perhaps we can infer some import from this Commission-noted anomaly.  Similarly, one can presume she had known Ruby for some time, but hadn’t been in recent contact,  since she left a message under the name Leona Miller, rather than her married name of Lane.  In doing so, we must assume that “Leona Lane” might not have struck a chord with Ruby, whereas “Leona Miller” would.) 

It would explain a few other things as well.  It would indicate that it wasn’t merely random chance that brought Leona Miller and Jack Ruby together on the night of 11/22 at the synagogue.  It would also explain why Ruby was seeing bail bondsmen and conferring with attorney Pete White immediately after the Whitter/Miller bust and prior to his rise to infamy only days later. 

One can establish these details by sifting through the records, and testimony.   Confirmation is found in the list Ruby kept of the persons to whom he’d given Carousel Club membership cards, which list itemized who had received them in chronological and numerical order.  Just prior to 11/22, Jack Ruby was a very busy and garrulous man, handing out cards left and right, and kept sloppy and incomplete but nevertheless helpful records.  Thanks for that, Jack. 

(One might also be interested in the notation in Crafard’s book (presumably that Ruby had made a reservation under) the name “Miller” for a party of 15 from Collins Radio.  Tiny, tiny planet, this Earth.)                   
                       
I would be very interested in the backgrounds of the husbands of the Davis sisters-in-law, Charlie and Troy Lee, and whom their known associates might include. 

It is also more than passing strange that Tippit met his demise in a locale where he was a regular visitor, which bespeaks greater than even odds his death wasn’t the random event that’s been portrayed all these years.  Virginia Davis herself testified she thought Tippit lived in the building adjacent to where his car was parked when he was killed.  She didn’t seem to know, even at the time of her testimony, that this wasn’t so.

Don't wish to hijack this thread, but thought an answer to an important question was warranted.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 16 Jan 2014, 4:35 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:
Ed. Ledoux wrote:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Contents.pdf
Has a list with Crafard notebook listed under Andrew Armstrong
Could someone check the number in Crafard Notebook against Davis phone number!

Apologies for the delay in replying, Ed.  No Worries! Thanks Robert!!

The numbers are the same. Oy vey!

A few decades ago, frustrated over the deliberately haphazard presentation of key evidence by the Commission, I compiled all phone numbers found among the effects of Oswald and Ruby into two separate subsets, as I would locate same in the volumes.  (The MF files would have been a blessing at the time.)
Kinda like this garbage: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/02/0246-001.gif

Except for sea bags MF has been the holy grail!

The number listed in Crafard’s book under Leona Miller is the same number attributed to the Davis sisters-in-law in their respective DPD affidavits.  Presumably the Davis girls wouldn’t have hand-written and/or signed an affidavit that contained an incorrect phone number.  The fact that both women provided the same number argues against any lapse in memory, typo or clerical error.   No argument there!

However, likewise, Crafard had no reason to mistake a phone number given to him over the phone.  Presumably the caller - Leona Miller - wanted a return phone call and left the correct number.  And I believe there’s persuasive evidence that she did receive a return phone call from Jack Ruby, as we’ll soon see. I take it that Leona was either a Davis sister friend, was at Davis sisters, or wanted Ruby to call the Davis sisters/husbands.

(You can also find the phone number of “Thomas” among Ruby’s effects.  Invert the final four digits as rendered by Ruby’s hand and you’ve got the phone number of John Thomas Masen, who requires no introduction to the veteran hands here.  While Ruby found it necessary to keep that number among his effects, he also found it necessary to disguise that number, for reasons that should be as obvious as the act is telling.  Masen is not the only commonality between Ruby and the Terrell armory thefts, as Donnell Whitter was a mechanic who worked on Ruby’s cars.  I have hypothesized that Ruby was the informant who delivered the weapons to Whitter and Miller and having done so, was allowed by police to “get away.”)

Ruby in the Dodge. (Using Olsen or another DPD officer to set them up)

I suspect that Leona Miller and Larry Miller of the Terrell arms theft(s) are in some respect related.  If so, this would help to explain why a Leona Miller was suddenly calling Ruby not long before the Terrell heist and Larry Miller’s subsequent arrest.  This can be established via the order in which Crafard noted incoming messages for Ruby. 

I was looking for Leona's husbands name. Yet her and her mother, Esther Miller testimony/statement is lacking this detail.
Lawrence Reginald Miller's father was Acie Cole Miller. Lawrence died in 1973
I could not find the connection, though a full trace might.

Ancestry.com account members have at it!

(Crafard kept Leona’s number among the “permanent” numbers in his notebook, even though he testified that she wasn’t a regular caller.  Perhaps we can infer some import from this Commission-noted anomaly.  Similarly, one can presume she had known Ruby for some time, but hadn’t been in recent contact,  since she left a message under the name Leona Miller, rather than her married name of Lane.  In doing so, we must assume that “Leona Lane” might not have struck a chord with Ruby, whereas “Leona Miller” would.) 

It would explain a few other things as well.  It would indicate that it wasn’t merely random chance that brought Leona Miller and Jack Ruby together on the night of 11/22 at the synagogue.  It would also explain why Ruby was seeing bail bondsmen and conferring with attorney Pete White immediately after the Whitter/Miller bust and prior to his rise to infamy only days later.  Pete White was at courthouse for Masen arrest hearing on Nov 20 I surmise.

(White's name was in Larry Crafard's notebook) (White defended John Thomas Masen for violation of National Firearms Act)
http://jfkassassinationlegacy.blogspot.com/2011/08/b.html see BAER, HENRY


One can establish these details by sifting through the records, and testimony.   Confirmation is found in the list Ruby kept of the persons to whom he’d given Carousel Club membership cards, which list itemized who had received them in chronological and numerical order.  Just prior to 11/22, Jack Ruby was a very busy and garrulous man, handing out cards left and right, and kept sloppy and incomplete but nevertheless helpful records.  Thanks for that, Jack. 

(One might also be interested in the notation in Crafard’s book (presumably that Ruby had made a reservation under) the name “Miller” for a party of 15 from Collins Radio.  Tiny, tiny planet, this Earth.)    Collins Radio -Miller, Claire R. (Sales: Mexico and South America), 1932-1934 (4 folders)    http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/scua/msc/tomsc850/msc814/collinsradiocompanyrecords.html
                       
I would be very interested in the backgrounds of the husbands of the Davis sisters-in-law, Charlie and Troy Lee, and whom their known associates might include.  Oh me too, see my comment about the call back above. Nov 22nd must have been a slow day for roofing...zzzzzz

It is also more than passing strange that Tippit met his demise in a locale where he was a regular visitor, which bespeaks greater than even odds his death wasn’t the random event that’s been portrayed all these years.  Virginia Davis herself testified she thought Tippit lived in the building adjacent to where his car was parked when he was killed.  She didn’t seem to know, even at the time of her testimony, that this wasn’t so. She also was talking about how the killer "dumped" empty pistol shells into his left hand and then was dropping them along the yard...Either killer was ignorant as the shells would dump out on their own when cylinder was opened and inverted or the shells were 'bulged' and required pulling each out or tapping gun to get them out...either way the shells in evidence are not bulged out and would not have been fired by the pistol in evidence. She said he was emptying them into his hand but did not see him dropping them but assumed he did because she found two...she also only heard two shots! Hmmm
Thus I believe shots were from different guns. Different angles and not all from across hood of car. I asked about this and went over the trajectory angles with Sherry Fiester, which precluded the upward angles of head shot from a shooter standing or kneeling next to passenger side of the police cruiser. As I recall for the trajectory to work as portrayed, killer would need to be lying across hood or in front of Tippit.

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/Tippitautopsyfacesheet.png  
Steep upward angle shown in diagram did not work for side of car shooter!! Button shot did. etc.
Even Dale Myers says the head wound did not exit the skull due to something stopping the blow out in top left rear of JD's head. The bullet was removed from inside skull..ie the pavement shored up the cranium...admitting this would lead one to accept a coup de grace shot. Blood splatter from such would have been evident on the "White" jacket, though none was found. So possibly the "white jacket man" shot twice and hit JD in chest. The head and heart shots would be from second shooter(if you accept the evidence and where it leads.)

Go ahead and actually lay down next to a car and see which position JD would need to be facing for a Coup De Grace shot to be possible with left rear of head on pavement! Then chalk outline it and post your findings. Should be a interesting exercise.
FWIW this is the wrong angle and position: http://www.jfk-online.com/100tippit.jpg
(PS I am aware of the jacket Scoggins was wearing, being stocky. Only one statement to Coup de grace..etc.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/11/21/National-Enterprise/Images/JFKmedia_0061385056082.jpg

Don't wish to hijack this thread, but thought an answer to an important question was warranted.
Consider it jacked  Embarassed 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 12:44 am

In September, 1963, a former baseball pitcher for the Boston Red Sox, Chicago Cubs and Minnesota Twins arrived in Dallas.  Albert Schroll quickly found himself in the company of Jack Ruby and became a bartender and bouncer for him working both the Vegas and Carousel clubs.

Schroll is a bit of strange peripheral figure related to the JFK assassination because his phone number was found in Jack Ruby’s notebook that was confiscated after Ruby’s arrest.  This book was kept in the possession of Larry Crafard prior to the assassination and it was Crafard’s responsibility to update numbers and addresses and keep records of who was contacting Jack when they called him.  During Crafard’s testimony, as was usual for Larry whenever difficult questions were presented to him, he had a bit of a memory lapse when the name Albert Schroll popped up:

Mr. GRIFFIN.  Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written in there, Schroll.  Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD.  Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN.  Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be written down?
Mr. CRAFARD.  No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN.  Or who that refers to?
Mr. CRAFARD.  No, sir.


Albert Schroll was interviewed by the FBI on December 27, 1963, and said that after he arrived in Dallas in mid-September he was allowed to enter Ruby’s clubs because of his status as a baseball pitcher and it was at his first meeting with Jack that he was offered the job as a bouncer.

Schroll claimed he worked one evening at the Vegas Club and one month at the Carousel.  He said he had no association with RUBY outside of his employment.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=340085 - Albert Schroll FBI statement.

The strange aspect to all of this relates to where Schroll actually lived during this period of time in Dallas.  When the Dallas Police took possession of a batch of membership cards for the Carousel Club one of them was in the name of Albert Schroll.  His address listed on the card was 511 North Marsalis Avenue.  This location is one block south of the alleged boarding house of Mary E. Bledsoe at 621 North Marsalis. This was the residence that we are told Lee Oswald lived at for one week during October 7th through 14th before he moved into the Roberts residence at 1026 North Beckley.  The apartments where Schroll lived at 511 Marsalis were about a thirty second walk from Bledsoe’s house.

The telephone registered to 511 North Marsalis was WH 2 0567. 

This telephone number was registered to one Jack Ruby.


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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 1:53 am

Great timing Lee!

I was doing some checking on the "White Hall" players. lol

Phone numbers of those I found interesting in WH exchange.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Telephone%20Numbers/Item%2006.pdf

WH 8-3202 Gertrude Roper. Notation in Texas

file, adjacent name "Harvey Lee Oswald - 605 Elsbeth" on DPD list of TSBD employees. Puzzling

WH 1-2909 Cecil McWatters - bus driver.

WH 8-8538 J. G. O'Dell 19/525. Says saw Oswald on bus. Res: 709 N.Madison St.

WH 1-4792 Johnny C. Brewer, shoe store on Jefferson, fingered LHO at
Texas Theater.

WH 2-1985 Mrs. Bledsoe phone at 621 N.Marsalis(Re: LHO 10/7-14/63).

WH 3-8993 LHO addr. book 16/42: Also; Kantor notes 20/360. Phone number
at Beckley St. Apt. Mrs. A. C. Johnson, 1026 N. Beckley, Dallas.

WH 3-8120 Leona(?) Miller - Penway notebook 19/65. Also (see 19/429) Mrs. Vir-
ginia Davis (Tippit witness). Possibly community phone at the address?

WH 2-8437 Dallas: Dootch Motors, 2201 S.Beckley (5/68 Tel.Dir.)

WH 6-8731 Dallas: Former J.D. Tippit phone nbr

WH 1-5938 Frank Boerder (studio) re: Ruby-Cheek 26/546 "Borden" in Ruby note-
book. See 25/360. Borden (auto, 22/504) Ref: CD 105 p.5.

WH 3-8251 Dallas: Doris Fay Warner, 223 So. Ewing.

WH 2-3268 Kathy Kay (Coleman/Olsen) 325 N. Ewing Apt. 111, Dallas.

WH 6-2161 Dallas: Texas Theatre, 231 W. Jefferson (5/68 T.Dir.)

WH 2-5461 Elinor (fair) -Ruby person 22/499 = Elnora Pitts(maid) 2
5
/351.
Ref: CD 104 p.166. Kept Ruby apt. tidy - See W/Rpt for details her call
11/24 to Ruby apt
-

WH 8-8997 Jack L. Bowen (Grossi) has record. Mame was on LHO library card.

WH 3-8098 Dallas: Bernard adio, 609 N. Vernon (5/68 Tel.Dir.)



Quite the group! ~Ed


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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by beowulf on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 4:31 am

Martin, great find with the other supplementary offense report. Do you have a link for that?
Looks like there was some serious law enforcement brainstorming going on in Dallas on November 29 & 30. If you'll recall the FBI's TSBD building survey-- timing all the ways from 6th floor to front door-- was dated November 30. I'd wager this is when the Feds decided to change Tippit's time of death to a more convenient moment (I wonder too if JFK shooting listed as 12:32 in order pad Oswald's escape timeline by 2 minutes).  However as Martin demonstrates, they weren't able to edit every piece of paper.

I'd note the Secret Service report mentions a 2:25 time to walk down stairs from 6th floor to front door via 2nd floor-- that is of course FBI scenario 6 (pdf p129); the 2:52 time is taking the elevator down to 2nd instead of stairs-- scenario 7 (pdf p130).
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=129


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Re: Question Concerning Time

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