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Question Concerning Time

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Martin Hay on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 6:09 am

beowulf wrote:Martin, great find with the other supplementary offense report. Do you have a link for that?
Looks there was some serious law enforcement brainstorming going on in Dallas on November 29 & 30.. If you'll recall the FBI's TSBD building survey-- timing all the ways from 6th floor to front door-- was dated November 30. I'd wager this is when the Feds decided to change Tippit's time of death to a more convenient moment (I wonder too if JFK shooting listed as 12:32 in order pad Oswald's escape timeline by 2 minutes).  However as Martin demonstrates, they weren't able to edit every piece of paper.

I'd note the Secret Service report mentions a 2:25 time to walk down stairs from 6th floor to front door via 2nd floor-- that is of course FBI scenario 6 (pdf p129); the 2:52 time is taking the elevator down to 2nd instead of stairs-- scenario 7 (pdf p130).
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=129


Annoyingly enough, I can't find it again. I'm pretty sure that I googled "Tippit Supplementary Offense Report" and it was the first thing that came up from this website: http://texashistory.unt.edu/

But now when I google I get this version: http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338163/m1/1/

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Martin Hay on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 6:21 am

Found it:

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337723/

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by beowulf on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 6:47 am

Ha, that's great. I wonder if the Feds (whether FBI or SS, doesn't matter) took the original report from Dallas PD, "fixed" the time of death (from 1:15 to 1:25) and only then sent report on to DC, perhaps even returning corrected original to Dallas PD.  Meanwhile, no one figured on there being a carbon copy of "original original" in Dallas PD archives.  1:15 time of death on one copy and 1:25 on the other--- you won't find a clearer example of evidence tampering than that.

Makes me wonder if there are other DPD documents in the National Archives that were fixed sometime before they went to DC that have unfixed original copies sitting in DPD archives.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 2:55 pm

What I find perplexing is the pronouncement of death at Methodist Hospital by Dr. Ligouri. One of the reports filed by a constable present at Methodist tells us the doctor made efforts to resuscitate Tippit in the ER of Methodist Hospital.

The question in my mind is, as Tippit was later described as Dead on Arrival, was the time of death on the death certificate the time Tippit arrived at Methodist Hospital, or the time Dr. Ligouri abandoned resuscitation efforts?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by beowulf on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 6:47 pm

Here's an interestingg thread where some doctors discuss precisely this issue.
http://www.forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/doa-versus-time-of-death.931962/


Consensus seems to be if any effort is made by doctor to treat patient (even if just to listen for a pulse), then time of death is called when doctor gives up the fight and NOT when patient arrives at hospital. One doc on that thread makes the practical point that if time of death is called before the doctor works on patient, the doctor can't be paid by patient's insurance company, seeing as policy expired w/ patient.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by beowulf on Sat 18 Jan 2014, 7:06 pm

Since the tampered DPD report padded time of death by 10 minutes, it stands to reason Tippit was shot 10 minutes earlier than official story.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 19 Jan 2014, 3:09 am

beowulf wrote:Here's an interestingg thread where some doctors discuss precisely this issue.
http://www.forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/doa-versus-time-of-death.931962/


Consensus seems to be if any effort is made by doctor to treat patient (even if just to listen for a pulse), then time of death is called when doctor gives up the fight and NOT when patient arrives at hospital. One doc on that thread makes the practical point that if time of death is called before the doctor works on patient, the doctor can't be paid by patient's insurance company, seeing as policy expired w/ patient.

Thanks for the link, Beowulf. That was very interesting. I am a part time paramedic on the ambulance in our small community. I have attended on a couple of calls where the patients arrested on us prior to arrival at the ER. While we made attempts to resuscitate them (unsuccessfully) and these attempts were continued by medical staff at the ER, it has never occurred to me to ask how the time of death is determined, or to ask the attending physician what the time of death was.

I suppose it is possible to have a patient dead (pulseless) on arrival, yet have a time of death established much later, only when resuscitation attempts have been abandoned. The one poster makes a good point saying there is no insurance coverage after the patient dies, and therefore no way of paying for the resuscitation attempt.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by beowulf on Sun 19 Jan 2014, 4:07 am

You're welcome traveler, here's another story (a Kennedy article rather on topic) that suggests that time of death is surely the most precise time stamp we have in the Oswald/Tippit timeline.
http://nation.time.com/2013/11/20/watch-used-to-tell-time-of-jfks-death-up-for-auction/

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 19 Jan 2014, 9:03 am

I just spoke to a doctor acquaintance of mine. He said this is a real grey area and that it could go either way, time of death as arrival or time of death as cessation of resuscitation.

Of course, I am in Canada, and there is no concern here, with government healthcare, about not getting paid by the insurance company if the patient "dies" too early.

He said the way he would judge it would be evidence of electrical activity on an electrocardiogram. By this, I'm not sure if he meant a pulse or simply that the patient's heart still had a "shockable" electrical pattern. We use an auto-defibrillator on our ambulance that, every two minutes during CPR, will advise us to shock or not shock the heart. Surprisingly, after 45 minutes of CPR, one patient we delivered was still receiving "shock advised" analyses from the auto-defibrillator; meaning he would have a shockable heart rhythm still.

But, as this doctor said, without electrical activity, would you even begin resuscitation attempts in the ER? This begs the question, also, of what they had in the way of analytical devices in 1963 and what they were prepared to use on a pulseless patient in the ER.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 11:29 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:There was no relation, Paul, as far as I know, between Johnny and E.D. Brewer. That kind of information would have surfaced long ago and been common knowledge.

Licking my chops these days as Joseph McBride's "Into the Nightmare" is due to arrive. $38.50 for approx. 640 pages. It deals almost exclusively with the Tippit murder. I know that Steve Duffy (aka casenagell) has also read it and I'll be starting an on-line discussion or two about facets of this case.
Hi Richard:
 
When you finish Into the Nightmare, I'd like to hear your overall impressions of the book, if you'd be so kind to share them. I have about 100 pages to go, and with my overall shallow knowledge level of the JFK assassination, I don't know what to make of some of McBride's theories pertaining to Tippit.
 
Thanks!

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 8:23 am

This is a good book, Stan, well worth reading. It is like a flawed jewel- there is some glistening new information that significantly adds to the existing evidence- and some dull and overwritten parts, which I could have done without. But overall, this is an exemplary effort (30 years of research) and Joseph McBride deserves to be commended. As a postscript, you might want to check out Dale Myers' hatchet job on McBride at

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-good-bad-and-ugly-new-and-updated.html

and then McBride's ample rebuttal at

http://www.ctka.net/2014/mcbride_01.html

The centerpiece of Into the Nightmare is the interview with Edgar Lee Tippit, JD's father. He said JD and another policeman were notified by the DPD that Oswald was headed their way. Of course, this reeks of DPD complicity in the framing of Oswald (if not also the killing of Kennedy), as they officially didn't learn who Oswald was until about an hour later.

That other policeman had to have been William Mentzel, who informed JD's widow that he hadn't made it to 10th & Patton because he'd gotten into a minor car accident. Mentzel did officially investigate an accident after his lunch break, and gave conflicting accounts of his early afternoon activities to the FBI in 1964 and HSCA in 1977. It is a real stretch to imagine, in a  public cafeteria, that he was in there a half hour before hearing about JFK's shooting- which is what he first claimed in 1964. Besides this, his 1964 account has misinformation as to the location of the Jefferson Branch Library, and an apparent fabrication about being dispatched to the Texas Theater (he denied this to the HSCA). So what was Mentzel hiding in 1964?

The next major revelation for me was Mike Brownlow's interviews, of Doris Holan and Sam Guinyard (a WC witness), who claimed to see a 2nd cop car in the alleyway (or backing up in the driveway feeding that alley). This is revolutionary stuff and I'd never heard of it before.

I did wish that McBride had gotten more details of what Guinyard told Brownlow in 1970. Brownlow I'm familiar with- he's a Dallasite who tracked down Earl Schaeffer ("Run-away man"), who darted up the knoll steps at the sound of the shots and had never spoken to anyone in the many intervening years.

These days I'm inclined to believe that there was a 2nd police car at the scene of the Tippit shooting. I wish I knew more about the Guinyard story, though.

McBride built on the work of Tippit researchers Bill Pulte, Greg Lowery & Larry Ray Harris. He helps round out a picture of Tippit's extracurricular life with in-depth information on his girlfriend and two moonlighting jobs. And then  there's suggestively incriminating stuff on Jack Ruby, Harry Olsen and Darrell Wayne Garner.

Yet he barely touched on the topic of the Abundant Life Temple. Tippit's killer was last spotted directly behind this 100-room structure, a search of which was aborted due to a false sighting of a suspect at the library. McBride mentioned Harvey & Lee several times in his book, and surely was aware (since it's in Armstrong's book) that Thomas Beckham told the HSCA that Fred Crisman had established the Adundant Life Temple. McBride apparently was unaware that Jim Garrison received a letter provocatively asking "Is it not strange [Crisman] knew Tippit?" Indeed. It may have been fruitful to pursue an interview with Beckham.

What definitely wasn't fruitful was how the book concluded, with a speculative chapter on whether Tippit was Badgeman. This should have been dismissed in a page or two. The reality of Tippit's 12:17 transmission "Be out of the car a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View", precludes any possibility that he went to the grassy knoll by 12:30. This incident was investigated by Larry Ray Harris, who talked to the manager of Hodges Super Market at 4121 Bonnie View. Intriguingly, he told Harris that Tippit put the woman shoplifter in his squad car- and that he had phoned the police about her. Yet there is no dispatch to Tippit about this. How did he learn about her? Most likely through an alternative police channel- not phone calls- and this channel was used to alert Tippit & Mentzel to the approaching presence of "Oswald".

A good supplementary article is Bill Drenas' "Car #10 Where Are You?" at

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 12:51 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:This is a good book, Stan, well worth reading. It is like a flawed jewel- there is some glistening new information that significantly adds to the existing evidence- and some dull and overwritten parts, which I could have done without. But overall, this is an exemplary effort (30 years of research) and Joseph McBride deserves to be commended.
Thanks for the reply, Richard. I know what you mean about the dull and overwritten parts, but I thought the book was good too. (I speak as a neophyte on the assassination.) In the words of Robert Charles-Dunne, this book helped "move the ball down field," at least a little, it would seem.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 8:55 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
Richard Gilbride wrote:This is a good book, Stan, well worth reading. It is like a flawed jewel- there is some glistening new information that significantly adds to the existing evidence- and some dull and overwritten parts, which I could have done without. But overall, this is an exemplary effort (30 years of research) and Joseph McBride deserves to be commended.
Thanks for the reply, Richard. I know what you mean about the dull and overwritten parts, but I thought the book was good too. (I speak as a neophyte on the assassination.) In the words of Robert Charles-Dunne, this book helped "move the ball down field," at least a little, it would seem.
I have a problem with Myers' critique, but also have a problem with one aspect of McBride's thesis.

Myers had no personal PRIOR knowledge of Edgar Lee's alleged mental deterioration. Very odd since he claims to have been gathering family history on the Tippit's for around two decades. Instead, he has apparently found a family member to to help nullify McBride's claim that the old man was alert and bright with good memory. I think McBride is correct in identifying this as an example of Myers' (dishonest) MO.

On the other side of the ledger, I find it totally unbelievable that Metzer would be order to find and kill Oswald, only to be pulled off that task to attend a minor accident elsewhere. If this is me running the show, I say the accident can go to hell... the hunting and killing of Oswald takes precedence over EVERYTHING else. McBride attempts to get around this problem by claiming it was actually Metzer who had the accident. Trouble is that I McBride has no evidence for such a claim.

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:34 am

Greg, I find Menzel's actions particularly suspicious. He goes to lunch without getting acknowlegement from dispatch. Almost at the same time as the shots are ringing out mind you. Then claims not to have heard anything about the shooting for half an hour or more. 

There is an accident call at West Davis and another car (222 from menory) calls that they will attend. Menzel's seems like he should be attending it, as he would be closer, he seems to be stalling, confused about the street number etc. 222 calls in at Sylvan and Colorado (?) a few minutes later. It seems to me that this car attendees the accident. A short time later after the call re Tippit is sent by dispatch, Menzel seems to be cruising up and down west Jefferson supposedly looking for Tippit's killer. Never really going anywhere it seems.

Finally he is called to the Texas Theatre to get the keys for a police car that has been left there.

In a way Tippit Sr's recollection is not far from this. Menzel feels guilty because he went to lunch. If he was still patrolling Tippit might not have been called there. The accident on West Davis may have diverted him.

Then again the reason Jackson gives to call Tippit (and ?Nelson) to Oak Cliff is a crock, and provably so. Oak Cliff was literally crawling with cops in the half hour before the Tippit shooting.

From memory, Menzel, Nelson, Tippit, Parker and Croy, possibly Walker. Then there is Harry Olsen. All "alert for any emergency".

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 2:42 am

There was also JM Lewis, who transmitted at 12:47 that he was at "105 Corinth", about a mile due east of 10th & Patton. Lewis' district #35 was in Oak Cliff about a mile north of 10th & Patton. 

The transcripts have his next transmission at 1:16, during the Bowley call time-frame, simply acknowledging "35". CE 2645 says Lewis was "dispatched to TSBD, then to 10th & Patton", but I find no indication that he was ever dispatched to the TSBD. I may be missing something. But that code 3 went out at 12:40 and then 12:45, "Attention all squads in the downtown area".

That other car to respond to the accident was #222 V.R. Nolan. He acknowledged he was "en route" at 1:15 while still up at Sylvan & Colorado, 0.4 miles away. And he reported "clear" at 1:41. He was with the Accident Prevention Bureau and was in his element handling this accident.

Mentzel responded at 1:11 and remained "about 10 minutes". Whether he was actually involved in this accident, as has been suggested, is a toss-up in my mind. But I have to agree with Colin that Mentzel is winging it as far as his recollections and is in error, an indication that he is fabricating something.

There was another minor accident 4 blocks west of the Texas Theater handled by #221, Howell Summers, also of the Accident Prevention Bureau, at 1:04. Once Summers handled it he overheard the distress call about Tippit and raced two miles to the scene and was the first officer to arrive. Tippit had raced out of the Top Ten Record store and turned right 1 block west of the Theater, on Bishop Avenue, a minute or two beforehand.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 7:28 am

Thanks Colin and Richard,

whether or not Mentzel's actions were suspicious, is a separate issue. 

I'm trying to address the specific claim by McBride that Mentzel was sent to hunt down and kill Oswald, but then was involved in a minor accident which prevented him from doing so. Did McBride have any evidence that Mentzel himself was in that accident? If not, the most he can claim is what the record shows - he was sent to attend the accident.

But if he really was sent to attend the accident, it makes a mockery of the claim he was first sent to hunt down and kill Oswald. As you guys say, the area was crawling with cops. As it is, you've got him being pulled off a mission to kill the one person who can unravel the whole plot - for what - a minor accident that a number of other cops in the area could have been sent to?

_________________
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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 9:17 am

You make a valid point, Greg. To assume that Mentzel was Tippit's accomplice in hunting down Oswald, you'd have to assume that the 1:11 interchange with the dispatcher is a charade, sort of like Nixon in the Watergate tapes. That doesn't pass the Occam's razor test. Because dispatcher Murray Jackson was the one who ostensibly informed Mentzel of the accident. To accept McBride's thesis, you'd have to make the further conjecture that Mentzel alerted Murray via the secret back-channel that he'd just got in an accident, and then they went through  the charade for the sake of the official transcript.

1:07)  91: 91 clear.
         Dispatcher: 91 clear


1:11)  Dispatcher: Signal 7, 817 West Davis
         91: 817 West Davis
         Dispatcher: 222
         222: En route
         91: 7 on West Davis
         Dispatcher: 817
         91: Code 5


There's a different situation with Howell Summers, however, whom McBride neglected to mention. By the way, I was mistaken earlier, he was the 2nd officer to arrive at the murder scene, after Croy.

It was Summers who alerted the dispatcher that he was investigating an accident. And he never transmitted that he was clear, once he'd finished his business.

about 1:06)  221: 221 Traffic, 600 West Jefferson
                  Dispatcher: 221 out.

We next hear from Summers at 
           1:27)   221: 221's almost there.
           Dispatcher: 10-4, 221


Summers perhaps was the officer who told Marie Tippit that he'd got in an accident. Which I guess would have to be attributed to loss of nerve or over-excitement. If he rammed into a civilian's vehicle he'd have to deal with it or take the chance it'd be publicized later. The timing of his accident corresponds more closely with where Tippit was at (having just left that vicinity a few minutes earlier & headed for 10th & Patton), and he was "on the beam" (like Croy) for a speedy arrival.

Just a thought. McBride may have noticed the suspicions in Mentzel's accounts and too-hastily assumed he was the Tippit accomplice.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 7:04 am

I don't believe Howell Summers was the second Officer to arrive at the murder scene. Why would he wait so long to tell the dispatchers that he had arrived?


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=139239


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1139&relPageId=896


It doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 1:28 pm

I got Summers' 1:27 transmission off of the McAdams site, where he says he's "about there". Strangely enough, it's not in CE 1974. Dale Myers has him arriving at 1:21.

"1:21. The second police car to arrive at the crime scene pulled up behind Tippit's abandoned patrol car. Howell W. Summers had known J.D. Tippit very well and thought him to be an exceptionally nice officer. Summers joined Croy and began questioning witnesses. The two officers were told that 'a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left' the scene."

There is a long footnote to this, citing Myers' 3/28/83 interview of Summers. Summers stated that when he arrived at the shooting scene Tippit was still in the street, and the ambulance pulled up about a minute and a half later. Although Summers believed he was the first officer to arrive, it is doubtful that his recollection is accurate. All of the witness agree that the ambulance arrived before the first police officer. Ambulance attendants Butler and Kinsey confirm this fact. Butler's use of the radio to notify Dallas police that the victim was an officer supports their account. Further, Butler told the House Select Committee that "if there had been any officers at the scene, I would have asked one of them to ride with me." (9/25/77 p. 4 RIF 180-10107-10180) Apparently, Summers was the first officer to arrive at the scene in a marked car. Reserve Sergeant Kenneth Croy arrived about a minute before Summers, driving his own vehicle. Officer Roy W. Walker, who arrived on the scene at 1:22 p.m. confirmed that two other officers were there when he got there (Myers interview w/ Walker, 4/4/83)

So Summers briefly confirms that he's on the scene at approximately 1:29, by my reckoning. Then it's not until 1:37 that he radios in that he's got an eyeball witness and gives a lengthy description that includes the Eisenhower jacket, which Summers got from talking to Ted Callaway. 

So he didn't clear from his 1:04 accident, at say 1:18, and didn't announce he was at the Tippit scene for a solid 8 minutes after his arrival. Interesting, and I wonder where the McAdams site got the idea that he transmitted at 1:27.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 4:45 am

Just thinking out loud- probably why your computer smells like burning cobwebs...

JD Tippit enters the Top Ten Record store, 338 West Jefferson, at 1:02/1:03 PM (Harvey & Lee time estimate). He makes a quick call and lets the phone ring 7-8 times, then dashes to his squad car and tears up Bishop Avenue. This runs north, perpendicular to Jefferson, and starts the 300 block. One block up he takes a left and stops insurance salesman James Andrews by veering over and cutting off his car. He takes a hasty look inside Andrews' car. Andrews says Tippit looks upset, wild and agitated. Tippit turns around and heads east on West 10th, over to East 10th and his death. He likely stopped Andrews at about 1:04.

In front of Luby's Cafeteria, at 430 West Jefferson, William Mentzel has his squad car parked at 1:04 PM. Who knows what he's really doing, since he claimed to abort his meal. He will signal "clear" at 1:07.

In the 600 block of West Jefferson, at 1:04, Howell Summers calls in an accident. He wasn't called there by the dispatcher; he was the one who informed the dispatcher of the accident. Did he just witness an accident by chance? I highly doubt it. I lived in Boston a year and never witnessed an accident. Dallas in 1963 might have had 10 accidents per day. The odds that Summers was there when it happened are infinitesmal.

But maybe Summers caused the accident. Maybe at 1:03/1:04 he received information that caused him to act wild and agitated. Just like Tippit. And Summers raced his car and inadvertently rammed somebody. Even if he was pursuing "Oswald" (like Tippit) he couldn't exactly avoid dealing with that minor accident, since that civilian could come back to haunt him.

Next logical question: did the Accident Prevention Bureau have their own private communications channel, for relaying information about minor accidents? It makes sense to me that they would, so as not to flood the usual police channels with minor complaints. But they would occasionally, once or twice a day, encounter an accident that required a backup squad car or an ambulance sent to the scene. So they'd need access to the usual police channels.

I didn't get any confirmation of that from Ian Griggs' No Case to Answer. But did get reminded that Charles T. Walker was with the Accident Prevention Bureau. His broadcast about a suspect running across the library lawn singlehandedly diverted the police to abandon 10th & Patton and surround the Jefferson Branch Library.

I'm liking the idea that it was Howell Summers who approached Marie Tippit after JD's shooting and confided that he & JD were on the hunt for Oswald. And Mentzel, by his obfuscation, seems to have known about this somehow.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 7:03 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:I got Summers' 1:27 transmission off of the McAdams site, where he says he's "about there". Strangely enough, it's not in CE 1974. Dale Myers has him arriving at 1:21.

"1:21. The second police car to arrive at the crime scene pulled up behind Tippit's abandoned patrol car. Howell W. Summers had known J.D. Tippit very well and thought him to be an exceptionally nice officer. Summers joined Croy and began questioning witnesses. The two officers were told that 'a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left' the scene."

There is a long footnote to this, citing Myers' 3/28/83 interview of Summers. Summers stated that when he arrived at the shooting scene Tippit was still in the street, and the ambulance pulled up about a minute and a half later. Although Summers believed he was the first officer to arrive, it is doubtful that his recollection is accurate. All of the witness agree that the ambulance arrived before the first police officer. Ambulance attendants Butler and Kinsey confirm this fact. Butler's use of the radio to notify Dallas police that the victim was an officer supports their account. Further, Butler told the House Select Committee that "if there had been any officers at the scene, I would have asked one of them to ride with me." (9/25/77 p. 4 RIF 180-10107-10180) Apparently, Summers was the first officer to arrive at the scene in a marked car. Reserve Sergeant Kenneth Croy arrived about a minute before Summers, driving his own vehicle. Officer Roy W. Walker, who arrived on the scene at 1:22 p.m. confirmed that two other officers were there when he got there (Myers interview w/ Walker, 4/4/83)

So Summers briefly confirms that he's on the scene at approximately 1:29, by my reckoning. Then it's not until 1:37 that he radios in that he's got an eyeball witness and gives a lengthy description that includes the Eisenhower jacket, which Summers got from talking to Ted Callaway. 

So he didn't clear from his 1:04 accident, at say 1:18, and didn't announce he was at the Tippit scene for a solid 8 minutes after his arrival. Interesting, and I wonder where the McAdams site got the idea that he transmitted at 1:27.


I appreciate your response, Richard. However, I don't put much faith in Summers' recollection, let alone much of what Dale Myers writes in his shitty book. Even if Summers told the dispatcher that he was almost there at 1:27 pm, it still puts him at the murder scene after Poe, Jez, and Sgt. Owens according to both WCE 705 and WCE 1974. I will need to read up on Roy Walker's interview with Myers when I get the chance.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 15 Feb 2014, 10:17 am

Richard, consider the sequence you describe for Tippit but reverse the Andrews incident and Top Ten. Tippit driving west on 10th and stops Andrews, then swings around to Top Ten, makes the call and then goes north on Bishop, turns right (east) on to Sunset.

I seem to recall a woman who claimed a cop (Tippit?) collided with her car and simply drove off around this time.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 15 Feb 2014, 12:06 pm

The timestamp for the Top Ten Records incident seems to be the 1:03 call from Murray Jackson, which Tippit didn't respond to. (WCH XXIII p. 853 "78 location..."). The assumption being that Tippit was in the record store at the time.

I checked the Baylor Library for the Armstrong collection about the James Andrews story. It's in the "Tippit shooting Nov. 22, 1963" subject on pp. 67-68. The story happened because Greg Lowery was interviewing Andrews trying to get information about fellow insurance salesman Roscoe White, who also had worked at American National Life across from Austin's Bar-B-Cue. And Andrews said if you're interested in the assassination, let me tell you about this.

He said he was driving west on West 10th "a little after 1:00 PM" and detailed the incident about Tippit stopping him. Louis Cortinas at the Top Ten had said he last saw Tippit running a stop sign and traveling east on Sunset Avenue. (which parallels Jefferson, by the way, one block up). About 2 blocks northwest of the record shop was where Tippit encountered Andrews. So Tippit could have gone east on Sunset and then north on either Madison or Zangs to get onto West 10th (one block further up than Sunset) by taking a left, and get into position to cut off Andrews' car. 

Tippit was out of his car while he was in the Top Ten store, and while he was looking into Andrews' car, but the difference is about one minute vs. 10 seconds. The odds strongly favor his being in the record store during the 1:03 call.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 15 Feb 2014, 1:19 pm

Richard, when I looked at the Tippit movements a while back I had the sequence you are proposing. See the diagram below. The main issue with Andrews after Top Ten is that it requires Tippit to do a U-turn and head east on 10th after the encounter. I wondered after not finding what he was looking for in Andrews' car he headed to Top Ten to make the call. Note the position of Mentzel around this time. I added Ruby's apartment as an interesting possibility. Either way Tippit is certainly tearing around after Gloco. Then for some reason is cruising at 10 mph on 10th just after.


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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 15 Feb 2014, 10:49 pm

Very nice graphic, Colin. Helps the brain considerably. When Louis Cortinas said he last saw Tippit running a stop sign, then heading east on Sunset, apparently he's seeing Tippit round the Bishop Ave/Sunset corner at a faster than usual speed. That's the only place I can put a stop sign that would be seen from Top Ten Records. I think Tippit had parked his car facing north on Bishop before he entered the record store. So it still makes sense to me that he's driving quickly through the West 10th neighborhood, and then he stopped Andrews. But I better appreciate how it could have gone the other way, and that he stopped Andrews before entering Top Ten.

My instinct tells me that Andrews' car wasn't a completely random sighting, but that Tippit recognized it in his adrenalized state and thought it might yield some answers. I'm saying he was familiar with it from working at Austin's Bar-B-Cue. I wonder whether Roscoe White and Andrews may have driven the same company car during their employment at American Life. Roscoe in my view was tied in with the backyard photos and Hargis (I'm not 100% positive on this) said he saw him on the grassy knoll so it wouldn't surprise me entirely if he was associating with Tippit in the months prior to joining the DPD in October , 1963.

Your graphic could also include Howell Summers' accident at 1:04 at the left edge of West Jefferson. Still wondering whether an Accident Prevention Bureau frequency could have been a convenient back-channel for those so disposed as to be hunting down Oswald after 12:30 on November 22.

You make a good point about how Tippit slowed way down along East 10th. Helen Marham's key observation was that as he pulled through the intersection with Patton, he was driving "slow, real slow now."

Another instinct I have is that Tippit, while at Top Ten, phoned the apartment house that he used to frequent, according to Virginia Davis and William Scoggins. There was no answer, and Tippit didn't quite know what to do with himself, so he opted to drive over there. And he saw someone walking along the sidewalk outside that house. It was a trap, and going to be a cold-blooded execution all along.

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