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Question Concerning Time

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:26 am

Lee Farley wrote:Brewer and the IBM men

Some of the more seasoned JFK researchers will well be aware of the interview that Johnny Calvin Brewer gave to the author of No Case to Answer Ian Griggs. 

In that interview Brewer said something remarkable that was never mentioned in any of his statements with the DPD or the FBI and certainly wasn't mentioned when he gave his Warren Commission testimony.

Brewer claimed that in his shop, at the moment Oswald allegedly entered the lobby, were two other men.  Brewer told Griggs that they worked for IBM.  He claimed to have known them for quite a while but unfortunately could not remember their names.  When Oswald appeared and Brewer began following him, these "IBM men" stayed behind in his store.  When Brewer got back to his store the "IBM men" were gone and they had quite conveniently closed up shop for him.

There may be some small clues in Johnny Brewer's testimony that could mean something not least the following:

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear over the radio that the President had died? 
Mr. BREWER - I heard a rumor. They said that----one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor. 


The reason I am quite suspicious of the above Warren Commission quote is not because it sticks out like a sore thumb. No.  It is because of the possible presence of "Secret Service" agents at the library false alarm at the exact time that Oswald is entering Johnny Brewer's lobby.  In Detective Marvin Bukh's report of December 3rd he claims:

"We next heard the call regarding the suspect being in the Branch Library on Jefferson. We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated that the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously."


At the time of these events Brewer was never invited to a police lineup to identify Oswald.  He mentioned nothing about other people being in his store who were also privy to this situation.  His story conflicts in many areas with that of Julia Postal.  And let's not forget this; the day before he appeared before the Warren Commission he was given a promotion by his company with a bigger store, more responsibility and, of course, a bigger salary.  Impeccable timing.

I will next post the strange story of Adrian Hamby and the demands made of him by "Secret Service" agents prior to the lock down of the library.
Lee, I haven't seen the London "trial". Do you know if Brewer mentioned anyone else being present in his testimony there, whether or not he actually said they were IBM men?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3450
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:53 am

Greg,

Bugliosi while examining Brewer concerning listening to his transistor radio asks:

VB - Around 1:15 in the afternoon was it also reported over the radio that a police officer had been shot in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?
JB - Yes

No mention of any other people in the store.  He does confirm his WC testimony that one of the officers shouted "kill the President will you?"

He also states he was no more than 3 feet away from Oswald when they hauled him out.

Other than that the only outstanding bit of this examination was truly how much of an idiot Gerry Spence was.  Jerry Lewis would have given a better cross-examination.   Bugliosi asks five questions.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:59 am

Lee, I haven't seen the London "trial". Do you know if Brewer mentioned anyone else being present in his testimony there, whether or not he actually said they were IBM men?

Found what I was looking for... someone on McAdams' forum told me 10 years ago that Brewer said "everyone else turned to look [at the police cars going by] but not Lee."

He may have been paraphrasing what Brewer said -- but still - was this a reference to the IBM men, other shop-keepers, or shoppers? Doesn't matter. Brewer said nothing about them prior to London.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3450
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:06 am

Does anyone know what time the film started playing? Jack Davis, who was a patron, mentioned seeing Oswald during the opening credits.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:16 am

Regarding the statement "everyone turned" I've just subjected myself to watching his London Trial testimony twice and it isn't in there. At least not in my copy.

EDIT:  similar to my inability to count my fingers I also get my left-right and east-west mixed up!   cheers


Last edited by Lee Farley on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:24 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:21 am

Paul Klein wrote:Does anyone know what time the film started playing? Jack Davis, who was a patron, mentioned seeing Oswald during the opening credits.

Paul,

I believe the start time for the movie was 1:20 PM.

Lee

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:40 am

The film started at 1:20, as advertised in the newspapers. Beforehand there was about 20 minutes of newsreels and cartoons. The Theater opened for patrons at 12:45

This link takes you to a 1964 interview with Brewer.

http://wn.com/johnny_brewer

It's pretty clear that there wasn't any public radio description of Tippit's killer at the time Brewer saw someone in his lobby. Brewer uses the description of the JFK suspect to match with the person in his lobby. But he puts his shoe in his mouth, saying this person matched the (non-existent) public description of Tippit's killer.

Reporter: What made you suspicious of this man who walked into the lobby?

Brewer: Well, right after the President had been shot they broadcast a description on the radio of this man... was 5-8, 5-9, 150 lbs and this Oswald matched the description. Well, just a few minutes before he walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff and he walked in- he matched the description. Looked scared. Just the way he stood there.

For amusement, be sure to check out "Johnny Brewer Texas Theater Policy Bumper"

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:52 am

Lee Farley wrote:Regarding the statement "everyone turned" I've just subjected myself to watching his London Trial testimony twice and it isn't in there. At least not in my copy.
 Thanks Lee. Sorry for subjecting you to that. Needless to say, it was a Nutter who told me.

It was a thread asking who the worst witness was:

-----------------------------
Dear Greg,
I don't know if I could agree with you here as regards Brewer. I saw him on
TV in the show "Lee Harvey Oswald On Trial" and he comes across as a
very creditable witness IMHO. He was calling himself Jack Brewer by then,
not
"Johnny Calvin Brewer" as he seems usually known in assassination
literature. Obviously some time had passed between the assassination and
when the TV show was made, around 1986.

Anyway, he makes it clear in his testimony that the reason he followed
Oswald into
the Texas theatre was not because Lee hadn't bought a ticket, but because
he had ducked into the alcove of Brewer's shop, turning his back on the
police cruisers going up and down the street with sirens blaring at
the time. Everyone else turned to look but not Lee. He stated that Lee
looked scared, as if he had been running and that his hair was messed
up. He then followed Lee up the street and into the theatre where he told
Postal to call the police after learning that Lee hadn't bought a ticket.

Hope this is of some use to you.

Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia

greg wrote in message
news:newscache$7kqrjh$wv5$1@news.octa4.net.au...

>
> > My nomination for the "worst" JFK witness was/is
> >                 A TRIPLE DEAD-DEAD - BREWER/POSTAL/MCDONALD

> >half-arsed liars wo any signs of a conscience between 'em..
> > They got their 15 minutes okay.. And then some..
> >     But they paid a terrible price:
> > History will record Brewer as a shoe salesman,
> > Postal as a blonde, and McDonald as a buffoon and a LIAR..

> > Whereas other sad characters like Brennan
> > will be referred to more kindly as, "a confused
> > witness," these three a whole other kettle of fish stories.
> >
> >  Greg                  qr054266>
> >
> >
> >
> > prwh...@yahoo.com (Peter R. Whitmey) wrote in message
> news:<945b9736.0308141620.633bfa8d@posting.google.com>...
> > > gary...@yahoo.com (Gary Buell) wrote in message
> news:<56f0defe.0308140729.64a5c7ff@posting.google.com>...
> > > > ecag...@earthlink.net (Ed Cage) wrote in message
> news:<3bfdcc19.0308131659.796c49ce@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > Who was the WEAKEST or W-O-R-S-T
> > > > > witness of all?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sylvia Odio?
> > > > > Carolyn/Gordon Arnold?
> > > > > Ed Hoffman?
> > > > > Jack Dougherty?
> > > > >
> > > > > Who would you nominate?
> > > >
- hide quoted text -
> > > > Does anyone have time for this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed Cage          au131756
> > >
> > > >>How about the late Jean Hill?  She even saw a dog in the car (it
turned
> > > out a hand puppet was given to Jackie at Love Field as a present, but
the
> > > SS would have taken care of any presents for security reasons alone).
> > > Despite being 15 feet away, she didn't see JFK go violently backwards
(and
> > > to the left).  Contrary to later claims, she didn't see anyone firing
from
> > > the knoll or smoke or a flash of light, but did hear four to six shots
.
> > > She later claimed that she stood throughout the whole event, but
photos
> > > show her sitting on the grass next to Mary Moorman, with "the Babushka
> > > Lady" still standing.  When interviewed by the local NBC affiliate and
> > > later by the network, she rambled on.
> > >
> > > She later also claimed to be there mainly to see her boyfriend on his
DP
> > > motorcycle (as well as Jackie), so was likely distracted by his
presence
> > > as she kept looking back and forth as shown on the Z-film.  Despite
being
> > > a teacher, she didn't know that Connally was the governor of Texas.
She
> > > likely wouldn't have been interviewed by the WC (like many other
> > > eyewitnesses), but Mark Lane played up her allegations so much during
his
> > > public testimony (the only witness who insisted on the media being
> > > present), the WC was forced to send Arlen Specter to talk to her.  Of
> > > course, she made a big deal about not going to Wash. DC and all the
> > > threats she lived with for so many years, but had become such an
> > > unreliable witness, that she was not included in the Oswald Trial
filmed
> > > in Britain (although she was flown there with many others) nor TMWKK.
Jean
> > > called me "a thorn in her side" at the 1993 Sudbury conference to my
face
> > > (during a break), even though she hadn't read my article which I had
sent
> > > to some other researchers.  I never did learn if she read it when it
> > > finally was available at the web thanks to Clint.  I did send a copy
to
> > > Beverly Oliver who was in Sudbury, so she might have loaned it to
Jean.
> > >
> > > You can read my article "Jean Hill - The Lady in Red" at:
> > >
> > >     http://www.jfk-info.com/sitemap1.htm (scroll down list of titles)
or
> > > there is a link at John McAdams site where he lists some of my
articles
> > > (as well as including some at his site.  My David Ferrie telephone
list
> > > will be added to the article soon.  - Peter R. Whitmey

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3450
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Albert Rossi on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:56 am

Silvia Odio?????????????

Who are these idiots?

Albert Rossi

Posts : 417
Join date : 2013-08-29
Age : 61
Location : Naperville, IL USA

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:59 am

Albert Rossi wrote:Silvia Odio?????????????

Who are these idiots?
McAdams forum. Mainly nutters.

Not many options for discussion groups back in 2000 when I first stumbled into JFKland.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3450
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:04 am

greg parker wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:Regarding the statement "everyone turned" I've just subjected myself to watching his London Trial testimony twice and it isn't in there. At least not in my copy.
 Thanks Lee. Sorry for subjecting you to that. Needless to say, it was a Nutter who told me.

It was a thread asking who the worst witness was:

-----------------------------
Dear Greg,
I don't know if I could agree with you here as regards Brewer. I saw him on
TV in the show "Lee Harvey Oswald On Trial" and he comes across as a
very creditable witness IMHO. He was calling himself Jack Brewer by then,
not
"Johnny Calvin Brewer" as he seems usually known in assassination
literature. Obviously some time had passed between the assassination and
when the TV show was made, around 1986.

Anyway, he makes it clear in his testimony that the reason he followed
Oswald into
the Texas theatre was not because Lee hadn't bought a ticket, but because
he had ducked into the alcove of Brewer's shop, turning his back on the
police cruisers going up and down the street with sirens blaring at
the time. Everyone else turned to look but not Lee. He stated that Lee
looked scared, as if he had been running and that his hair was messed
up. He then followed Lee up the street and into the theatre where he told
Postal to call the police after learning that Lee hadn't bought a ticket.

Hope this is of some use to you.

Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia

greg <magic...@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
news:newscache$7kqrjh$wv5$1@news.octa4.net.au...

>
> > My nomination for the "worst" JFK witness was/is
> >                 A TRIPLE DEAD-DEAD - BREWER/POSTAL/MCDONALD

> >half-arsed liars wo any signs of a conscience between 'em..
> > They got their 15 minutes okay.. And then some..
> >     But they paid a terrible price:
> > History will record Brewer as a shoe salesman,
> > Postal as a blonde, and McDonald as a buffoon and a LIAR..

> > Whereas other sad characters like Brennan
> > will be referred to more kindly as, "a confused
> > witness," these three a whole other kettle of fish stories.
> >
> >  Greg                  qr054266>
> >
> >
> >
> > prwh...@yahoo.com (Peter R. Whitmey) wrote in message
> news:<945b9736.0308141620.633bfa8d@posting.google.com>...
> > > gary...@yahoo.com (Gary Buell) wrote in message
> news:<56f0defe.0308140729.64a5c7ff@posting.google.com>...
> > > > ecag...@earthlink.net (Ed Cage) wrote in message
> news:<3bfdcc19.0308131659.796c49ce@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > Who was the WEAKEST or W-O-R-S-T
> > > > > witness of all?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sylvia Odio?
> > > > > Carolyn/Gordon Arnold?
> > > > > Ed Hoffman?
> > > > > Jack Dougherty?
> > > > >
> > > > > Who would you nominate?
> > > >
- hide quoted text -
> > > > Does anyone have time for this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed Cage          au131756
> > >
> > > >>How about the late Jean Hill?  She even saw a dog in the car (it
turned
> > > out a hand puppet was given to Jackie at Love Field as a present, but
the
> > > SS would have taken care of any presents for security reasons alone).
> > > Despite being 15 feet away, she didn't see JFK go violently backwards
(and
> > > to the left).  Contrary to later claims, she didn't see anyone firing
from
> > > the knoll or smoke or a flash of light, but did hear four to six shots
.
> > > She later claimed that she stood throughout the whole event, but
photos
> > > show her sitting on the grass next to Mary Moorman, with "the Babushka
> > > Lady" still standing.  When interviewed by the local NBC affiliate and
> > > later by the network, she rambled on.
> > >
> > > She later also claimed to be there mainly to see her boyfriend on his
DP
> > > motorcycle (as well as Jackie), so was likely distracted by his
presence
> > > as she kept looking back and forth as shown on the Z-film.  Despite
being
> > > a teacher, she didn't know that Connally was the governor of Texas.
She
> > > likely wouldn't have been interviewed by the WC (like many other
> > > eyewitnesses), but Mark Lane played up her allegations so much during
his
> > > public testimony (the only witness who insisted on the media being
> > > present), the WC was forced to send Arlen Specter to talk to her.  Of
> > > course, she made a big deal about not going to Wash. DC and all the
> > > threats she lived with for so many years, but had become such an
> > > unreliable witness, that she was not included in the Oswald Trial
filmed
> > > in Britain (although she was flown there with many others) nor TMWKK.
Jean
> > > called me "a thorn in her side" at the 1993 Sudbury conference to my
face
> > > (during a break), even though she hadn't read my article which I had
sent
> > > to some other researchers.  I never did learn if she read it when it
> > > finally was available at the web thanks to Clint.  I did send a copy
to
> > > Beverly Oliver who was in Sudbury, so she might have loaned it to
Jean.
> > >
> > > You can read my article "Jean Hill - The Lady in Red" at:
> > >
> > >     http://www.jfk-info.com/sitemap1.htm (scroll down list of titles)
or
> > > there is a link at John McAdams site where he lists some of my
articles
> > > (as well as including some at his site.  My David Ferrie telephone
list
> > > will be added to the article soon.  - Peter R. Whitmey

Tim Brennan is a fuckwit.  Can't stand him.

From what you posted its obvious that is what Brennan read into the Brewer London trial  testimony rather than what was said.  IOW another Brennan invention from his warped brain cells.

I've been looking into the Hamby stuff in detail again.  I can categorically state that the timings of that little sojourn simply do not work.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:20 am

Lee Farley wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:Does anyone know what time the film started playing? Jack Davis, who was a patron, mentioned seeing Oswald during the opening credits.

Paul,

I believe the start time for the movie was 1:20 PM.

Lee
Thanks Lee.
At one point I believed Oswald could have shot Tippit, but I am not really sure about anything anymore.

Guest
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:20 am

I've been looking into the Hamby stuff in detail again.  I can categorically state that the timings of that little sojourn simply do not work.
Good Lee. I knew they didn't work, but I gave up trying to make a sensible timeline around it. More power to you if you can sort it out.

And yes. Brennan is an utter fuckwit.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3450
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:37 am

greg parker wrote:
I've been looking into the Hamby stuff in detail again.  I can categorically state that the timings of that little sojourn simply do not work.
Good Lee. I knew they didn't work, but I gave up trying to make a sensible timeline around it. More power to you if you can sort it out.

And yes. Brennan is an utter fuckwit.

Any truth to Ed LeDoux's past postings (many years ago) that Brewer lived in the same apartments as Kathy Kay, knew both her and her two daughters?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:42 am

Paul Klein wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:Does anyone know what time the film started playing? Jack Davis, who was a patron, mentioned seeing Oswald during the opening credits.

Paul,

I believe the start time for the movie was 1:20 PM.

Lee
Thanks Lee.
At one point I believed Oswald could have shot Tippit, but I am not really sure about anything anymore.

The evidence in the Tippit case is worse than the evidence in the President case, Paul.

I really believe that the day this is eventually cracked and admitted to the level of lies involved will shock even us!

Guest
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:13 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:The film started at 1:20, as advertised in the newspapers. Beforehand there was about 20 minutes of newsreels and cartoons. The Theater opened for patrons at 12:45

This link takes you to a 1964 interview with Brewer.



It's pretty clear that there wasn't any public radio description of Tippit's killer at the time Brewer saw someone in his lobby. Brewer uses the description of the JFK suspect to match with the person in his lobby. But he puts his shoe in his mouth, saying this person matched the (non-existent) public description of Tippit's killer.

Reporter: What made you suspicious of this man who walked into the lobby?

Brewer: Well, right after the President had been shot they broadcast a description on the radio of this man... was 5-8, 5-9, 150 lbs and this Oswald matched the description. Well, just a few minutes before he walked into the lobby, on the radio they had a bulletin that an officer had been shot here in Oak Cliff and he walked in- he matched the description. Looked scared. Just the way he stood there.

For amusement, be sure to check out "Johnny Brewer Texas Theater Policy Bumper"
Cheers Richard.

Johnny was very dapper for a shoe salesman. Do you know if he was any relation to E D Brewer the DPD Patrolman who rode in the motorcade that day?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:24 am

Lee Farley wrote:
greg parker wrote:
I've been looking into the Hamby stuff in detail again.  I can categorically state that the timings of that little sojourn simply do not work.
Good Lee. I knew they didn't work, but I gave up trying to make a sensible timeline around it. More power to you if you can sort it out.

And yes. Brennan is an utter fuckwit.

Any truth to Ed LeDoux's past postings (many years ago) that Brewer lived in the same apartments as Kathy Kay, knew both her and her two daughters?
No idea. Ed?

I did some checks. Brewer gave his address to DPD as 512 W Lancaster. KK is listed by FBI as 325 N. Ewing. 

Ed still could be right, though. That N. Ewing address was a block of holiday apartments - indicating short term stay.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 11:24 am

There was no relation, Paul, as far as I know, between Johnny and E.D. Brewer. That kind of information would have surfaced long ago and been common knowledge.

Licking my chops these days as Joseph McBride's "Into the Nightmare" is due to arrive. $38.50 for approx. 640 pages. It deals almost exclusively with the Tippit murder. I know that Steve Duffy (aka casenagell) has also read it and I'll be starting an on-line discussion or two about facets of this case.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 3:45 pm

Lee Farley wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:Does anyone know what time the film started playing? Jack Davis, who was a patron, mentioned seeing Oswald during the opening credits.

Paul,

I believe the start time for the movie was 1:20 PM.

Lee
Thanks Lee.
At one point I believed Oswald could have shot Tippit, but I am not really sure about anything anymore.

The evidence in the Tippit case is worse than the evidence in the President case, Paul.

I really believe that the day this is eventually cracked and admitted to the level of lies involved will shock even us!
Well this Texas Theater timeline for starters puts the Tippit murder out of reach. I am learning that what we know today, is simply a result of the narrative the investigative bodies and then the WC promoted back in 1963-4. It is likely that it has absolutely nothing to do with what really happened. That is my biggest lesson in this sorry mess and what shocks for me. I am not sure it can be cracked in its entirety. They buried this thing as deep as they could while looking the other way.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 4:42 pm

Paul Klein wrote:I am not sure it can be cracked in its entirety. They buried this thing as deep as they could while looking the other way.
That about sums it up.

But you may be surprised by what there is still to learn. I've been digging around Lee's time in NYC -- a subject I'd already spent a lot of time on. But I am still coming across new material and gaining new insights including two possibilities for how Lee obtained that Rosenberg pamphlet - and an indirect but possibly important link between the Rosenberg's and Youth House.

I have also found a CIA safe house two doors from a very influential couple of radicals - and the possibility that this plays into Lee's extracurricular activities. 

A lot of "ifs" and "buts" there I know, but the case against Lee was always circumstantial. This is can be viewed as an alternative circumstantial history - with stronger evidence and not built to fit any preconceived notions. The same thing is happening around ground zero. The whole framework is being stripped and rebuilt. Forget the 2nd floor lunch-room. Forget the bus getaway. Forget where they claim he lived. It's all gone... or on the verge of going... all that and nearly everything else.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Redfern on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:33 pm

Is 1971 story from Penn Jones credible?






http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/White%20Magazines%20And%20Articles/Midlothian%20Mirror/71-08-26.pdf


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:05 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Messed up link)

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 2:41 am

Lee Farley wrote:
greg parker wrote:
I've been looking into the Hamby stuff in detail again.  I can categorically state that the timings of that little sojourn simply do not work.
Good Lee. I knew they didn't work, but I gave up trying to make a sensible timeline around it. More power to you if you can sort it out.

And yes. Brennan is an utter fuckwit.

Any truth to Ed LeDoux's past postings (many years ago) that Brewer lived in the same apartments as Kathy Kay, knew both her and her two daughters?
May have been in No Case To Answer
Its been a while but I remember the landlady ran 321 AND 325 Ewing
I seem to remember it was something I had to dig for perhaps involving Sheri and Susan Coleman, Kathy Kay's daughters

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 2:45 am

Kay Helen Coleman (Nee Harvey) - daughters Susan and Sheri

Mrs Irene Hall managed 321 and 325 N Ewing
Said that Kathy Kay rented 321 N Ewing #111

Johnny Calvin Brewer gave his current address a 521 N. Lancaster which is about one block from the Ewing apartments. I think he moved from Ewing to Lancaster but that is from memory.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 3:09 am

This information concerning Tommy Rowe appears in very few sources.  I remember it from Armstrong's Harvey & Lee and I have brought it up with Greg, I believe, on this forum.

Further information concerning Rowe is almost non-existent unless this Tommy Rowe is the same as Gary Thomas Rowe who was an FBI informer in the 1960's.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1157673

We'll need someone better with genealogy than I am to chase this down but if it is the same Tommy Rowe then we have something quite unusual concerning the events here.

I have beat the drum for many years concerning William J. Lowery as a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that may explain some of Oswald's actions that day.  Lowery was an FBI informer for decades in Dallas whilst maintaining the cover of a member of the Communist Party in Texas.  He surfaced as a spy in September, 1963, after 18 years of passing on information concerning anybody of a leftist persuasion to his FBI paymasters.  His control in Dallas was none other than James Patrick Hosty and he received $2500 per year for the information he was providing.

Lowery was such an important informer for the FBI that after he surfaced on September 23, 1963, he testified at an open Justice Department hearing in Washington D.C. and appeared on the front page of every major newspaper in America.  Lowery, if he wasn't before he surfaced, would have been well known to Oswald after.

The timing of Lowery surfacing as a spy should not be lost on members.  The end of September is the time-frame for Lee Oswald's alleged sojourn to Mexico City and when he gets back to Dallas he very quickly winds up at the Texas School Book Depository.  I believe Oswald was provided the TSBD job through the Texas Employment Commission (TEC) after FBI pulled strings with some of their many FBI informers that worked at the TEC and it is no coincidence to me that his associations with James Hosty then leads him to be working alongside one of William Lowery's old friends who would quicly be picked up after the assassination, threatened with being accomplice, before being fired from his job.  Did Hosty lead Oswald to believe he was going to be taking over William Lowery's old job as a left wing organisation infiltrator?

The most interesting things about Lowery are:

- He worked in a shoe store called the Shoe Haven a couple of blocks west of the Texas Theater
- He had a very close relationship with Oswald's co-worker at the TSBD Joe Molina when Molina was on the board of the GI Forum
- He stated in his initial HSCA interview that he thought Oswald was on his way to shoot him that afternoon before he was arrested in the Texas Theater
- His HSCA testimony is still classified in full

If, and I know it's a big if at this point, Tommy Rowe is Gary Thomas Rowe, then we will have FBI informers in two shoe stores on opposite sides of the Texas Theater that afternoon, and an allegation that it was Tommy Rowe who fingered Oswald when he entered Hardy's Shoe Store and was the one who saw him enter the theater.  There is a document in Armstrong's files that states Rowe lived in Ruby's apartment with a Freddie Woodall:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/25438/rec/1

If Tommy Rowe is not Gary Thomas Rowe then we have nothing else in the extant record concerning him - whatsoever.  We do have some FBI investigation documents pertaining to a John R. Rowe who is listed on may FBI information identification forms as a "JFK suspect" along with a Mildred Lane Longworth.  I haven't had a chance to look through these documents at this point but if others want to peruse and see if there is anything interesting:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10702&relPageId=159

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 3:39 am

The Library Diversion

During the manhunt for the Tippit killer many of the eyewitnesses who saw the assailant said he was last seen moving west away from the crime scene which would have taken him in the direction of the Texas Theater on West Jefferson Boulevard.

At 1:35 pm a police radio call was made by Officer C. T. Walker who spotted somebody he thought was the suspect and it is this call that for some inexplicable reason dragged the full force of the Dallas Police Department east - - away from the Tippit scene, away from the Abundant Life Temple and away from the Texas Theater:

“223, he’s in the library at Jefferson - east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson.”

Within the space of 30 seconds the call to the library is followed up by a call from Sergeant C. B. Owens:

“We're all at the library.”

In the same minute (1:35 pm) Owens radios through this concerning the library suspect:

“It was the wrong man.”

All of this takes place, according to the transcripts of the police dispatches that afternoon, within one minute.  Walker spots a suspect, radios through for back up to get to the library, Owens radios through that “we’re all at the library” before radioing that “it was the wrong man.” 

The above scenario is completely impossible given the times indicated and that is before we understand the full extent as to what actually happened during this very convenient false alarm.

The suspect that was surrounded at the library that afternoon, according to the extant record, was a University of Arlington student called Adrian Hamby.  Hamby worked at the library on Marsalis & Jefferson and was, when he was spotted by Officer Walker, on his way to work.


But the full story is more complicated.

Hamby was interviewed by Dale Myers for the book With Malice and he made some interesting comments, the significance of which were completely ignored by the biased and prejudiced author.

Hamby told Myers that on the afternoon of November 22d he was due for his shift at the library.  As he got to the intersection of Marsalis and Jefferson he saw police cars blocking the traffic with lights flashing and a crowd of people beginning to develop.  Hamby then pulled his car into the library car park and he noticed two men in dark suits getting out of a car and walking toward him.  The two men accosted him and requested to know what he was doing there at the library and he told them he worked there as a page.  They identified themselves as law enforcement officials and informed Hamby of the Tippit shooting and told him that he was to go inside and tell the head librarian to close all of the library doors, lock them and let no one out until the suspect had been caught.  Hamby said he went inside the library looked outside and saw the crowd again by the police cars that he approximated to be about 50 individuals before finding the head librarian Bessie Munday and told her what the plainclothes law enforcement officers had said.


The situation taking place outside the library had been occurring without the knowledge of anybody who was already inside.  Hamby stated that there were approximately five patrons at the library and that Munday then gave him the keys so he could lock the front door.  Munday then went to lock the door on the west side of the library.  At this point Hamby and the rest of people in the library went into the children’s department so they could listen to the radio to find out what was going on outside.  An elderly lady then came down the stairs and told them that the police had surrounded the library.

Curious as to what was taking place outside Hamby went and opened the west side door before sticking his head out.  Outside were swarms of police officers with an assortment of firearms.  As quickly as he opened it Hamby closed the door.  Once this happened there was a massive reaction by the police outside.  One of the officers on a megaphone ordered everybody inside to come out.  The use of deadly force was threatened.  At this point all of the library patrons started coming out with their hands above their heads.  The police began frisking them all but there was attention placed upon Hamby because of his height, clothing and hair colour.  He was peppered with questions and Hamby was pleading with them over and over again that he actually worked at the library.  It was then that one of the plainclothes men who accosted Hamby and sent him into the library approached him and told the officers to let him go.

If the police transcripts are accurate and if Hamby gave an accurate rendition of what took place that afternoon then the scenario outlined above cannot have taken place

CT Walker @ 1:35 pm says “223, he’s in the library at Jefferson - east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson.”
C. B. Owens @ 1:35 pm says “We're all at the library.”
C. B. Owens @ 1:35 pm says “It was the wrong man.”

Either something is badly wrong with the police transcripts or the Dallas Police could move at light speed.  And if we decide to believe the recollections of Adrian Hamby then we also have to believe that something has been hidden from view within the official documentation concerning the dispatches that day, and if they have been hidden from view here then the possibility exists that they have been hidden from view elsewhere.

Finally, with the story of Adrian Hamby in mind I once again point you to Detective Marvin Bukh's report of December 3rd when he claimed:

"We next heard the call regarding the suspect being in the Branch Library on Jefferson. We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated that the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously."


Was the library event a pre-planned diversion to direct attention away from the vicinity of the Texas Theater on West Jefferson Boulevard while somebody, let’s call him Larry, walked into the lobby of Johnny Brewer’s shoe store to be fingered as a suspicious person avoiding the police and make sure somebody followed him as he walked into the Texas Theater where the real Oswald was already seated waiting for something or someone to turn up?  Does this scenario explain the suspect also being in the balcony and Bernard Haire seeing an Oswald being taken out the back of the theatre?

Hamby segment paraphrased from William Weston article "Missing Radio Transmissions" from the Fourth Decade.

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