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Kenneth Hudson Croy

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Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 2:59 am

One of the closest police officers to Jack Ruby prior to him murdering Lee Oswald in the basement of City Hall was a DPD reservist by the name of Kenneth Hudson Croy.  Croy went on record during his Warren Commission testimony claiming that just before Oswald was brought out into the basement he {Croy} was requested to move the reporters back from where they were standing and that Jack Ruby was one of these individuals who Croy “moved.”


Croy had been a Dallas Police reservist for 4 years having joined in August of 1959 and for a police officer, regardless of whether it was a reservist position or not, he had a very bad memory when it came to remembering important things.  His full story, as we will see, was an incredibly important one and one that was never officially documented fully prior to his testimony before the Commission and even then we are treated to a morphing story and selective memory loss.


You see, Kenneth Croy wasn’t just the only Dallas Police Officer to admit to directly speaking with and interacting with Jack Ruby before he shot Oswald in the City Hall basement - he also just happened to be the very first police officer to arrive at the murder scene of Officer J. D. Tippit.


Kenneth Croy was in full Dallas Police uniform when he attended the Tippit murder and he got there, when we look at all of the available evidence, very, very quickly.  Using the Dale Myers timeline that Myers believes is accurate to the second we have the following occurring:


1:18:59 p.m. - An ambulance arrives at the Tippit shooting scene. Several citizens help attendants load Tippit's body. They depart within a minute.
1:19:30 p.m. - Reserve police officer Kenneth H. Croy arrives at the scene, the first officer to do so.
1:20:00 p.m. - Ted Callaway grabs Tippit's revolver, commandeers eyewitness William Scoggins' cab, and the two drive off in search of Oswald.


According to his Warren Commission testimony Kenneth Croy claimed he was off duty when he arrived at the Tippit scene.  To believe this statement means believing the unbelievable.  On any normal day and from a literal and technical perspective he could claim to have been “off-duty” but this was not a normal day and there is far more to Croy’s story that needs to be taken into account when weighing his account of proceedings up.

Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car 
Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform? 
Mr. CROY. In uniform. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot? 
Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes after it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot? 
Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home.
 

Croy claimed when he heard the President had been shot that he was fixing to go home after being "on duty" and was sat in his car on Main & Griffin.  His “duty” so to speak was as an Officer protecting the Presidential motorcade route and he was stationed at St. Paul & Main at the 1800 block of Main Street He said it was several minutes after the shooting that he heard about it but doesn't know where he was when the actual shooting took place.  He had a police radio in his car.  What type of police radio is unknown.  Whether it was two-way or just gave him the ability to listen to calls coming through but he claimed he only had access to Channel I.

He said it took him "at least 20 minutes" to travel two and half blocks from Griffin to the old red court house because he was "hemmed in" after the assassination.

He said when he got to Old Red he spoke to some unidentified uniformed police officers who were stood around outside the court house and asked if they needed any assistance.  He doesn't tell us what they said but if we're being asked to believe the answer was no then I'm not willing to swallow that one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the courthouse? 
Mr. CROY. I don't know. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see when you arrived there? 
Mr. CROY. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't know. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of assistance? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you inquire of? 
Mr. CROY. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I asked if I could be of any assistance. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, what did you do? 
Mr. CROY. I proceeded on home. 

We are left to assume these unnamed police officers who were hanging out on the corner of Main & Houston told Croy that his assistance was not required because Croy says after speaking to these courthouse loiterers that he "proceeded on home.”  This defies belief for me when he is within spitting distance of the assassination location.

Croy’s home by the way was 1658 Glenfield.  This was the same street that J. D.  Tippit lived on until 1961.  Glenfield was also the same street that Carl Amos Mather used to live on a few blocks from Tippit’s house when they first became friends. For those unfamiliar with Mather he is connected to proceedings becuase a license plate number was taken down by garage mechanic T. F. White close to the Texas Theater immediately after Oswald’s arrest that was traced back to Carl Amos Mather’s car.  The occupant of the car seen by White bore an uncanny resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald and Carl Mather, when interviewed, told of his friendship with J. D. Tippit.  Tippit's old house of 1919 Glenfield, even though he and his family no longer lived there in 1963, was still in his possession and the property was rented out.  As far as I'm aware it was never investigated who it was rented out to.  Croy’s house was three blocks from the house Tippit owned.  During his Warren Commission testimony it is interesting to note that Croy was not asked if he knew Officer Tippit.

Later in his testimony Kenneth Croy details the direction and route he claims he took home after he left Dealey Plaza:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home? 
Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of the street. It was Marsalis. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that---- 
Mr. CROY. Or Zangs. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs? 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home? 
Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of the street. It was Marsalis. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that---- 
Mr. CROY. Or Zangs. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs? 
Mr. CROY. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction? 
Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado? 
Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit. 

This makes no sense to me.  I'm no expert on the particular routes that drivers would take in Dallas but looking at the map it is ridiculous to believe that someone going home to 1658 Glenview, apparently uninterested in the shooting of an American President, would come off R. L. Thornton expressway at Colorado to drive onto Zangs Boulevard when they could stay on Thornton all the way to W. Illinois Avenue and avoid a multitude of traffic lights and get home much quicker.  His route, in my opinion, is very bizarre.  However, this is the route he claims he took and it was when he was Zangs & Colorado that he says the call came through on Tippit.  

But, as we will see, the story Croy initially tells Griffin about going “home” ultimately takes a dramatic u-turn.

The $64,000 question at this juncture; why did he feel it necessary to respond to the call on Tippit but ignore the assassination of the President?  

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? 
Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? 
Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it was. 

So this is how Kenneth Croy ended up being the very first uniformed Dallas Police employee at the Tippit shooting.  

If we once again use Dale Myers Tippit timeline then Croy got to the scene just over 90 seconds after T. F. Bowley's alleged radio call to the Dallas Police dispatcher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed 
Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance. 

And reading through his testimony we are treated to gems like the following that demonstrate that either Griffin was better at deciphering gobbledegook than I am or alternatively he did not give a damn in wanting to understand matters:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her [Markham]? 
Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there.
 

Croy was at the Tippit scene interviewing three of the main witnesses to the shooting but quite conveniently did not submit one report concerning his involvement that afternoon:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you file any report of your activities this day? 
Mr. CROY. No.
 

This is completely unbelievable to me and I just cannot accept that the first official investigator on the scene wasn’t interviewed in any way regarding what he saw and what he did nor did he submit one report.

In fact, all things considered there was absolutely no point in this guy even bothering to turn up at the murder scene that afternoon because when asked the following by Griffin we are treated to another bizarre episode:

Mr. CROY. The only information I could get out of her [Markham] was the description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you at that time that he had on? 
Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he had on. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you? 
Mr. CROY. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there.
 

So the only thing that Markham told Croy of any importance he unfortunately forgot when asked by the Commission - just like he seemed to forget his notepad and pen when he arrived at the Tippit scene. He doesn't remember Scoggins name or what he told him either.  He doesn't know who the other man was he spoke to and, once again, doesn't remember anything he said. Another female witness he doesn't recall the name of was in her yard.  He did not even determine from any of the witnesses which direction the assailant was moving before or after the shooting.

This just does not ring true for me, any of it.

Especially when we get to this:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver? 
Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was? 
Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness? 
Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? 
Mr. CROY. As far as I know. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver? 
Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned him over to them and they questioned him. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked with there?
 

I can't make heads nor tails what this piece of testimony is about.  Is Croy saying Ted Calloway was a private detective?  Did he speak to the taxi driver or didn't he?  However, we do know from this piece of testimony that Croy was definitely involved in handling the evidence because he says he took possession of Tippit's revolver once it was returned from its alleged detour with Ted Callaway - which I find strange because at this point in time I imagine there were many officers and detectives at the scene.  It Is therefore remarkable to me that the service revolver fell immediately into the hands of Croy.  It's all a bit too much to take.  Myers’ timeline assures us that Croy arrived at the scene before Callaway took Tippit’s gun and ran off thinking it was 1863 and not 1963.  Yet no action was taken against Callaway for illegally removing evidence from a crime scene.

It’s also interesting to note that Griffin displayed no real interest in any of Croy's list of abundant occupations:

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? 
Mr. CROY. I have several. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order. 
Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service station. I am in the steel erection business. And I am a professional cowboy, and that is about it that I can think of right now. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. ...Are you also connected in some way with the Dallas Police Department? 
Mr. CROY. I am in the reserves. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the reserves? 
Mr. CROY. Since August of 1959. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any rank in the reserves? 
Mr. CROY. I am a sergeant.
 

Due to this absence of curiosity we don't know which Mobil service station Croy owned or what his steel erection business consisted of or the details of his real estate business.  He appeared to be quite the entrepreneur notwithstanding his cowboy routine.  Maybe if Griffin had given him more time Croy might have could have thought of a few more occupations.

Another thing I will not accept, because it defies logic, was that Croy felt it unnecessary to report to Dealey Plaza that afternoon regardless of whether or not he had finished his shift a few minutes before he heard the news of the assassination.  As soon as he had the information of the President had been shot (several minutes after the actual shooting) then he was back on duty, as per the rest of the Dallas Police force.  

Yet Croy claims he went “home” after hearing the news of what had happened in Dealey Plaza as if it was news of a routine Dallas murder.  The shooting took place two blocks away from where he was when he found out about it and we are asked to believe that he proceeded to drive past Dealey Plaza and instead put himself in a position to become the first "off duty" Police Officer to arrive at the Tippit scene because he decided to drive the long way home - this driving home story will change though.

Croy also stated this in his testimony:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing? 
Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that.
 

If he stayed thirty minutes he would still be at the scene when Oswald was being dragged out of the theater.  If he stayed forty minutes then he was still at the scene when Oswald was being walked into the Homicide and Robbery Offices at City Hall.

The strange bit about this for me was the fact he stayed continuously at the Tippit scene for the whole period between the shooting and Oswald's arrest and only left after being told he wasn't required any longer.  He even claimed he observed the raid on the Texas Theater as he drove off to go get something to eat at Austin's Barbecue after it appears he changed his mind about going home.  Yet nothing concerning his appearance or experiences at the Tippit site was ever officially recorded:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any agent of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told us here? 
Mr. CROY. No. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas Police Department with respect to what you have told us here? 
Mr. CROY. No

 
As he was leaving the Tippit scene to go get his barbecue food (rather than go home as per his initial statements) he claimed to have seen what was going down at the Theatre. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile? 
Mr. CROY. No. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by? 
Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre? 
Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there? 
Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre? 
Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that? 
Mr. CROY. Zangs. 

I struggle to believe that Croy could look down an entire block from Zangs intersection with Jefferson and see there was nobody in any of the police cars parked in front and back of the Texas Theater, especially when we know a large crowd had started to develop outside.

Then he gives the game away for me that the journey he originally took "home" (Thornton onto Colorado onto Zangs) was not the fastest or easiest route:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house? 
Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois? 
Mr. CROY. Yes.
 

The quickest, simplest and easiest route to Glenview from downtown Dallas is Thornton all the way through to Illinois, yet he initially decided to come off Thornton at Colorado which actually takes you past Oswald's alleged rooming house on Beckley.  Is it possible Croy was in a patrol car and not his own car?

But this is where the story changes quite dramatically and, IMO, unbelievably. At the beginning of his testimony Croy stated he he was going "home" from work after his parade route duties. Later in his testimony this changes and he claims he was actually going to get something to eat at Austin’s Barbecue. Then, lo and behold, his wife makes an appearance when he just happened to bump into her right at the exact moment he was asking the unidentified police officers outside the courthouse whether any help was required concerning the assassination of the President of the United States in a location about 10 seconds away:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner? 
Mr. CROY. No; I don't. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew? 
Mr. CROY. My wife. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment? 
Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? 
Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other? 
Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes." 
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there? 
Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's. 

So, there you have it.  There is an APB on Channel I of the Police Radio frequency that shots have been fired at the President of the United States. Croy skips attending the scene that it would have taken him 10 seconds to get to.  His wife pulls up alongside his car in her car.  She asks Croy if he wants to go for something to eat to which he replies yes - as the entire world fixes its gaze on the area they happen to be in at that moment in time they both want to go for barbecue food. 

I simply do not believe this guy in any way shape or form and it appears to me that Croy is inserting possible alibis into his testimony as it becomes more and more apparent that it is littered with holes.

Then we find out he wasn't actually going "home" or for Barbecue food immediately after going off duty that afternoon because he now adds another variable into proceedings – he was going to his mother and father's house to change his clothes before going for something to eat.  But why were his clothes at his mother and fathers house?  Well...

Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home? 
Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that you had dinner? 
Mr. CROY. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to your mother's and dad's house? 
Mr. GRIFFIN. North on Hampton? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time? 
Mr. CROY. I slept there. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also? 
Mr. CROY. No. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her? 
Mr. CROY. No. 
(To reporter: Don't put that in there.) 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time? 
Mr. CROY. At that time. 

So, he's heading home in his uniform after work.  Then he's going for something to eat.  Then he's going with his wife.  Then he's on his way to parents to change clothes.  Then he goes for something to eat and then goes to change clothes afterwards.

Something sends my alarm bells into overdrive concerning Mr. Croy.

Then we have to factor in that Croy was also in the police basement on Sunday morning when Oswald was killed and was stood right next to Jack Ruby.  

Croy reported for duty on the 3rd floor of City Hall at 8:30am that Sunday morning along with a group of other DPD reservists and he said as police dispatches came in different reservists were sent out for duty.  When he was interviewed by the FBI on December 4, 1963, he said that was asked by a Sergeant, name of whom he couldn't recall, to search the building.  Once the search had been completed he then states he entered the basement under his "own volition" at 10:00 am.  

Therefore, according to his own words he was not assigned to the basement that morning once the search had been completed and went down there on his own orders to "aid the security."

Once he was in the basement he just happened to be stood very close to Jack Ruby and testified to Burt Griffin that prior to Ruby shooting Oswald he had actually moved him. Where did Croy move him?  Was he moving him closer to his prey?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved from and to? Could you show us where? 
Mr. CROY. Do you mean after I told him to move? 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. 
Mr. CROY. I don't know where he moved to.
 

His claim later is that Ruby barged his way through all of the reporters like a running back to get himself into position to shoot Oswald:

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point? 
Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to these reporters? 
Mr. CROY. He ran through them. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved? 
Mr. CROY. Yes. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved? 
Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through them like a fullback went through a line. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see his motion when he was in front of you? 
Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can you? 
Mr. CROY. No. 
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step before you had seen him? 
Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way. 

Is there anybody else on record who even hinted at a scenario where Jack Ruby barged his way through all of the reporters like a football running back?

Croy was a Police reservist for 4 years yet doesn't seem to know anyone's name who actually worked for the DPD when asked by Griffin and instead says he only knew people by sight.  He did admit he knew Jack Ruby having had a steak bought for him on Ruby's account three years earlier at the Lucas B&B but then also claims that from this point on he never ever saw Jack Ruby again, until that is he moved him in the Dallas basement, but he didn't recognise him.  



If you were a police officer in Dallas in 1963 and only run into Jack Ruby once in four years and could not recognise him when stood one foot away then there is something drastically wrong.  Just like Kenneth Hudson Croy’s story…



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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 12:05 pm

Harvey & Lee, p. 856: "Croy drove 1/2 mile south and arrived at the scene as Tippit's body was being loaded into an ambulance. A civilian, who has never been identified, approached Croy and handed him a wallet which he (Croy) later gave to Sergeant Calvin Owens.

Armstrong gives as a reference a 2002 interview of Croy by Jones Harris.

I included this information in my own book. In 2010 I was tracked down by Jones Harris, who had obtained a copy of my book and told me that this information was dangerous. It could get someone killed. Where did I get it? When I told him it had been out for several years, since 2003's Harvey & Lee, he was relieved.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 8:13 pm

I received some thought provoking responses concerning Kenneth Hudson Croy when I first ran my concerns by Robert Charles-Dunne a few weeks ago.  Robert's perceptive talents honed in on the wallet story and supplied me with a link to an interview given by Croy before he passed away in 2012:

http://www.wfaa.com/jfk/Wallet-mystery-from-Tippit-murder-scene-settled-50-years-later-232765681.html

The strange appearance of Kenneth Croy at the Tippit scene, and his close proximity to Ruby in the basement that included "moving" him, should have us asking serious questions about this man.  Factor into proceedings the above story that he was the first named person to handle the Oswald wallet at the Tippit scene and also the fact that he was the first police officer to arrive there and we have a possible contender for crime scene manipulator.

As I pointed out to Robert, Croy got to the Tippit scene too quick.  He claims he was stuck in traffic on Main Street when the news of the assassination came over channel I of the police radio he had in his personal car - according to Croy he only had access to Channel I on his converted radio.  He says he heard of the shots fired at JFK "several minutes" after it took place.  The first call went out on Channel I dispatches at 12:35 PM.  So, to hear the 12:35 PM broadcast he was sat in his car in traffic at Griffin & Main as per his testimony.  He then claims it took him 20 minutes to drive from Griffin & Main to the old red courthouse.  I find the 20 minutes claim difficult to believe (based upon the fact that William Whaley had no problems using this route in his cab around the time Croy claims he was sat in traffic) but let's say Croy was correct.  This means he stopped to ask these anonymous officers who were stood outside Old Red at 12:55 PM whether they need any help.  We have to assume they say no, and he then drives "home" which we later learn he kinda lied about at the beginning of his testimony because he wasn't technically going "home" once his route "home" turns out to be a crock of bullcrap.
 
Therefore there are 25 minutes to account for between him being outside the courthouse to the point of him pulling up at the Tippit scene.  There is only just over one and a half minutes in between the first "citizen call" at 1:17:41 PM and Croy arriving at the scene (using Myers timeline) at 1:19:30.  Croy claims he was at Colorado and Zangs when the Tippit call came out.  Unless he was driving a donkey I can't for the life of me work out why he would be at Colorado and Zangs at that point in time and not much much further ahead on his journey home, or for barbecue, or to his parents [delete as appropriate].
 
Plus factor in the four different addresses given out over Channel I as the Tippit location yet Croy knew exactly where it was yet every other police officer was confused, as is evidenced on the dispatch transcripts, because four different addresses were broadcast.

So Croy got there too early given the dispatch confusion and he got there too slow because according to the timescales he gives us he should have been a lot further away from Zangs and Colorado at 1:15pm.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 10:45 pm

Does anybody have an approximate time that the Presidential motorcade passed St. Paul and Main?

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:43 am

Lee Farley wrote:
Plus factor in the four different addresses given out over Channel I as the Tippit location yet Croy knew exactly where it was yet every other police officer was confused, as is evidenced on the dispatch transcripts, because four different addresses were broadcast.

 Hi Lee:

The Davis sisters-in-law and other locals were accustomed to seeing Tippit in the neighbourhood, with some thinking he actually lived there.  The speculation runs that he had a romantic interest there, hence the regularity of his presence.

If Croy knew precisely where to go, perhaps it is because he too knew of Tippit's habit of being there.  Far from certain, obviously, but a simple thought that might make some sense of Croy's movements.  It would require, however, that Croy knew which officer was "down" immediately upon hearing the DPD radio call.  I wouldn't rule that out.

FWIW.....

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Stan Dane on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 4:14 am

Lee Farley wrote:Does anybody have an approximate time that the Presidential motorcade passed St. Paul and Main?
Lee:

According to Walt Brown's Master Chronology of JFK Assassination Book II, the best guess may be 12:21-22 PM.

I pieced a few time stamps from the book concerning the motorcade Main street run:

November 22, 1963, 12: 21 p.m., CST— Dallas, Texas— the Mercantile Bank at the corner of Harwood and Main Street. "There is no precise record anywhere of who saw what specific clock, or what the exact time was when the motorcade turned onto Main Street. Analogously, there is no known record of exactly how long the Main Street run took."
 
November 22, 1963— 12: 24 p.m., CST— time approximated from context; Main Street, Dallas Texas. "I’m not sure how far we traveled on Main Street, but I do know that this is where the crowd seemed heaviest."
 
November 22, 1963, 12: 25— 12: 26 p.m., CST— Main and Austin Streets, Dallas, Texas.
 
November 22, 1963, 12: 26 p.m., CST— Main Street, Dallas, Texas. Chief Jesse Curry radios in, "Crossing Lamar Street," (Dallas Police Radio Logs, November 22, 1963, Channel TWO, CE 705— Continued, 17H, 461).
 
November 22, 1963, 12: 28 p.m., CST— Main Street approaching Houston Street, Dallas, Texas. Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry radios in, "Just crossing Market Street." (Dallas Police Radio Logs, November 22, 1963, Channel TWO, CE 705— Continued, 17H, 461)

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 6:03 am

Thanks, Stan.  Much appreciated.


From the numbers you posted we can kinda assume that the motorcade was travelling at approximately 40-50 seconds per block give or take.  Harwood is six blocks away from Lamar so it took roughly four or four and half minutes to go from one to the other.


The reason I ask is because Kenneth Hudson Croy was on duty positioned on the motorcade route at Main & St. Paul.  The motorcade passed by his official DPD position at approx 12:22 p.m.  During his testimony he stated he was sat in his car at City Hall when the assassination occurred at 12:30 p.m. and when he actually heard about it he was sat in traffic at Main & Griffin when it came over channel I of his police radio.


City Hall is one block away from Main & St. Paul.  So for Croy to have gotten there by foot (as per his testimony) and gotten in his car by 12:30 p.m. then he has about seven minutes and IMO for him to have done this then he must have finished his duty the second the motorcade passed by his position.  Do we believe that a police officer's duty would end the second the Presidential limousine went past?


I don't.  


The reason I find Croy's actions suspicious is because he later claims in his testimony that when he heard about the shots being fired in his car on Channel I radio dispatch at 12:35, "several minutes after" the assassination as Croy describes, he was at Griffin and Main which is five blocks from City Hall.  So he travelled six blocks in less than five minutes, yet he then says it took him twenty minutes to travel the next four blocks from Griffin to the Old Red Courthouse which would place him outside it talking to the imaginary police officers outside it at 12:55 p.m.


For it to take 20 minutes to travel four blocks must have meant some serious traffic congestion in the entire area.  Yet official version of events has William Whaley getting his cab from Lamar Street (one block west of Croy's location at Griffin) at 12:47 p.m. with Oswald over to Beckley in less than six minutes.


Yet we are to believe it took Croy twenty minutes to travel four blocks on Main and then it took him a further twenty minutes to go from the Old Red Couthouse over to Colorado & Zangs.


I don't believe it...

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 7:39 am


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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by greg parker on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:18 am

Croy's obit
http://www.fortstocktonpioneer.com/obituaries/article_8bcbe480-1e14-11e2-a41b-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=print

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:30 am

I can't make up my mind whether to believe Croy was in uniform when he arrived at the Tippit murder.  None of the witnesses mention a uniformed officer appearing at the scene as quickly as Croy was supposed to have been there.

Croy claims he was there when Tippit was being loaded into the ambulance.  If true the he was there before Callaway stole Tippit's revolver but Harold Russell's statement states that the police didn't arrive until five minutes after Callaway took the gun and pissed off with Scoggins.

Thinking about Croy's alleged involvement with finding the wallet I'm mulling over whether he may also have been the unidentified person who discovered the jacket too...

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 11:34 am

Myers' book does have WFAA photos, from film footage, of Croy in uniform w/ Helen Markham and another unidentified eyewitness, and Croy in uniform in a couple of early police-crowd shots.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 7:32 pm





Got it, Richard. 

Hasan put me onto this shot of Croy at the scene a few weeks ago and I have few doubts that this is probably him but the reason I'm still unsure as to whether he actually arrived at the scene in uniform is the complete absence (unless someone can correct me) of any witness claiming a uniformed police officer was there when Croy (and Myers) says he was there.

Croy is on record stating he was there before the ambulance had left with Tippit's body.  Myers has Callaway leaving the scene with Tippit's revolver after the ambulance had left and Callaway's testimony has him helping load Tippit's body into the ambulance with the drivers before taking the dead officer's weapon and telling the people who were around the car that he was going to get the S.O.B. who shot Tippit.

Are we to believe Myers when he says that Croy was stood there at the patrol car when this was happening and he not only let Callaway go off on his vigilante mission but allowed him to take evidence from the crime scene with him?

Something is amiss with all of this.

Could Croy have gotten to the scene with most of his uniform still in the car?  Not wearing his hat, shirt, tie, belt, holster?  Is this possibly why he wasn't recognised as a police officer?  I don't know.  But it is surprising to me that there is no mention of him being there when the ambulance was there and if he was there at this point in time why the crime scene wasn't locked down by him...

Just to recap:

He avoided the JFK crime scene
His timings for navigating Main Street are somewhat unbelievable
It took him twenty minutes to travel 2.4 miles from Houston Street to Colorado & Zangs
He knew the exact location of the Tippit scene even though 4 different addresses were given out on Channel I
None of the witnesses say there was a uniformed officer at the scene when the ambulance was there
If he was there at this time he let a civilian take Tippit's weapon
He claims he stayed continuously at the Tippit crime scene when all other officers were chasing the suspect
He was unable to remember anything concerning information he was given by any witness he spoke to
He claims he was given the magic wallet by an unnamed civilian
He avoided the Texas Theater
His story kept changing about where he was going that afternoon
He didn't file a single report concerning what he did in Oak Cliff and given he was the first person there and probably the only officer to stay there continuously this just beggars belief


Last edited by Lee Farley on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by greg parker on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 7:51 pm

Nice summary, Lee.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:26 pm

greg parker wrote:Nice summary, Lee.

Thanks, Greg.

In addition he was never asked during his testimony if he knew Officer Tippit and given he lived on the same street where Tippit used to live I find it somewhat perplexing.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Robert Charles-Dunne on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:56 am

Lee Farley wrote:I can't make up my mind whether to believe Croy was in uniform when he arrived at the Tippit murder.  None of the witnesses mention a uniformed officer appearing at the scene as quickly as Croy was supposed to have been there.
Trying to sort out this dog’s breakfast of contradictions and mutually exclusive accounts is challenging. 

If Croy was not in uniform, he presumably would have attempted to take control of the crime scene, identifying himself to witnesses and bystanders as a police officer in the process.  If he did not do so, why would Callaway give him Tippit’s sidearm?

If the officer depicted in full uniform in the Reiland footage truly was Croy, what does one make of this following conundrum?

Croy to the WC: “I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned [Callaway] over to them and they questioned him."

Callaway in 1996: "When I got out of the cab, I didn't hesitate a bit like a lot of guys would. I walked straight to this plainclothes officer [wearing hat and glasses] and I said, 'Here's the officer's pistol.' He said, 'Okay, thank you very much."

???

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:40 am

Robert Charles-Dunne wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:I can't make up my mind whether to believe Croy was in uniform when he arrived at the Tippit murder.  None of the witnesses mention a uniformed officer appearing at the scene as quickly as Croy was supposed to have been there.
Trying to sort out this dog’s breakfast of contradictions and mutually exclusive accounts is challenging. 

If Croy was not in uniform, he presumably would have attempted to take control of the crime scene, identifying himself to witnesses and bystanders as a police officer in the process.  If he did not do so, why would Callaway give him Tippit’s sidearm?

If the officer depicted in full uniform in the Reiland footage truly was Croy, what does one make of this following conundrum?

Croy to the WC: “I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned [Callaway] over to them and they questioned him."

Callaway in 1996: "When I got out of the cab, I didn't hesitate a bit like a lot of guys would. I walked straight to this plainclothes officer [wearing hat and glasses] and I said, 'Here's the officer's pistol.' He said, 'Okay, thank you very much."

???

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:47 am

It might be worth repeating that Jones Harris was near-certain that Igor Vaganov was the civilian who handed Croy the wallet, which turned out to have IDs for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell. Vaganov is an exceedingly strange character and personally I endorse Harris' suspicion. This Latvian emigrant drove down from Pennsylvania to a few blocks from the Tippit murder, arriving on November 18 or 19. He had a .38 Colt Police Action Special revolver and a rifle, a 1962 red Thunderbird convertible and disappeared from his apartment about 12:45 PM on November 22. 

His frightened new bride handed over to FBI agents receipts for long distance calls made from Hapeville, Georgia, a torn in half King of Spades playing card, and a 3 x 3 piece of paper with the penciled notations EL 6-6111 ,      E. STRAZDS,
353-1539 ,                    ARVIDS, JZAKS

which I would guess represented a couple of mysterious associates and their phone numbers.

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Re: Kenneth Hudson Croy

Post by Guest on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 3:23 am

When Clayton Butler, ambulance driver, was interviewed by the HSCA in 1977 he was asked about timings from that day when he and Eddie Kinsley drove out to the Tippit scene.

He told them the following:

"I was on the scene in one minute or less.  From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes."

If Frank Wright's phone call was the catalyst for the ambulance then we know it took place within seconds of the shooting.  Let's say within a minute.  Once Dudley Funeral Home receive the call Clayton Butler says he got the ambulance to the scene within one minute of receiving the call.  He further claims that from scraping Tippit off the floor to getting him to Methodist Hospital took 3 minutes.  Methodist being located just a little North of the 1026 North Beckley rooming house.

Dale Myers timeline concerning these events, the yardstick that believers of the fairy tale measure their narrative, is complete nonsense.

Myers has the following taking place:

1:14:30 p.m.  Oswald pulls a gun from under his jacket and shoots Tippit four times.
1:18:59 p.m.  An ambulance arrives at the Tippit shooting scene.  They depart within one minute.

So to believe Myers timeline means that we have to believe that several calls were placed for an ambulance from a variety of different people immediately after the shooting (the Wrights and the Davis sisters being the main ones but there were also others including Scoggins) and the ambulance once they received the call got there in less than a minute, yet, to believe this means we have to believe that more than four minutes passed by between the calls and Dudley Funeral Home receiving it.

If our time scale of 1:06 p.m. to 1:09 p.m. is correct for the Tippit murder and taking into account that it would only have taken seconds for an operator to send a dispatch through to Dudley Funeral Home and that Clayton Butler's timings are accurate that it took them four minutes to go from the 400 block of East Jefferson to Tippit scene to Methodist then the time of death on the death certificate of 1:15 p.m. fits the pieces.

I am simply going to laugh at a timeline that has a four minute gap between a phone call for an ambulance and an ambulance team being dispatched.

Cross posted on the 'Scoggins Testimony?' Thread

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