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"Harvey & Lee: the early years

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"Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Mon 03 Mar 2014, 2:53 pm

http://harveyandlee.net/Early/Early.html

LEE Harvey Oswald was born in New Orleans on October 18, 1939 to Robert E. Lee Oswald and Marguerite Claverie Oswald (shown at left at age 30 in 1937). His father died shortly after his birth and left his wife with 3 children: step-son John Pic, and sons Robert and LEE. In 1944 LEE Oswald was 5 years old, Robert was 10, John Pic was 12, and the family was living in New Orleans. Warren Commission attorneys Albert Jenner and John Ely questioned 31 year old John Pic about different home addresses when the family lived in New Orleans. Pic, who was 12 years old in 1944, was asked about 10 different addresses for Marguerite Oswald during a two year period. Pic, however, recalled only two of these addresses. This was the beginning of many unexplained addresses for Marguerite Oswald during the next 20 years. In June, 1944, Marguerite Oswald left New Orleans and moved into a home she had purchased in Dallas, Texas.

I can sympathize with Armstrong's concern over Marguerite's addresses, having suffered the nightmare of looking into them recently. However, you don't have to posit a doppleganger Marguerite to explain it. In fact, demanding that it must point to two Marguerites makes zero sense since they were both supposedly using the same name. So what you should find is evidence of a "Marguerite Oswald" living at each and every one of those addresses.

There is at least one alternative explanation which is spelled out in LHOCW. 

The following year 5-year old LEE Oswald had his tonsils removed. Marguerite's close friend of many years, Myrtle Evans from New Orleans, visited her for a week in Dallas. Myrtle and her husband (Julian) remembered Marguerite as a beautiful woman with black hair, a real "fashion plate" who dressed beautifully. That same year the tall, nice-looking Marguerite married Edwin Ekdahl, sold her house in Dallas, and moved into Ekdahl's home on Granbury Road in Benbrook, a small suburb adjacent to Ft. Worth. On October 31st LEE Oswald entered the first grade at Benbrook Common School. He attended 82 days and was absent 15 days through the Spring semester of 1946. In February, LEE Oswald was admitted to the Harris County Hospital for a mastoidectomy, which left young LEE with a large scar. In May, after experiencing marital difficulties, Marguerite took Ekdahl's car and together with LEE drove to Covington, Louisiana where she rented a house. In September, LEE Oswald was enrolled in Mrs. Hester Burns' first grade class at the Covington Elementary school. The Oswald family spent the Christmas holidays of 1946 in New Orleans, while Ekdahl rented an apartment at 1505 8th Avenue in Ft. Worth and apparently lived there with another woman.

 

OMG! That beautiful woman on the left and that frumpy hag on the right! It cannot be the same person surely! 

But it is. Both are Rose Cheramie.

It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

Armstrong uses lots of advertizing and PR gimmicks to sell his wares. One of those gimmicks is repetition of snippets of either his own dubious interviews of witnesses or from actual testimony, to reinforce core pillars of his crumbling Acropolis. One example from above is his constant references to the "good looking" Marguerite being "well dressed" and a "fashion plate". This is done to differentiate her in the readers mind from the "frumpy" Marguerite.

So let's get the facts straight. Marguerite was NEVER tall. Armstrong has elevated Ekdahl's height by 3 to 4 inches in order to convince readers that Marguerite was also comparatively tall http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t287-edwin-ekdahl-s-height 

Furthermore...

The photo showing Ekdahl and Marguerite together was a damn wedding photo! Was Marguerite supposed to attend her own wedding looking like a char woman?

Comments from others that she was a "fashion plate" are hardly surprising. They are recalling a woman in her 20s and 30s who at various times had reasonable paying positions in retail management and had, as noted, bought and sold real estate. Moreover, for a few years she had the well-off Ekdahl as a sugar-daddy. People in their 20s and 30s are fashion conscious and will spend money on closthes if they have it to spend. By her 40s and 50s, Marguerite was not as well off financially - probably cared a lot less about fashion - and in any case, most of the photos of her from her older years, show her in her practical nurses uniform. She also had graying hair and had put on weight - both products of that mysterious "aging process" with which John "Dorian Gray" Armstrong seems curiously unfamiliar. 

On the tonsillectomy issue - Where Armstrong is going with it is that he will produce and wave around USMC medical records showing Oswald had tonsillitis in the Marines and refer to Lee's tonsils derisively as "magic tonsils".  But as I have tried to show to Armstrong's Army time and time again is that tonsils can and do grow back. There is nothing more mysterious about than there is about the aging process which also seems to bedazzle and bedevil Armstrong.
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t226-armstrong-s-magic-tonsillectomy-vanishing-scars

Since writing that piece however, I did further research for LHOCW and as a result of that additional research, now believe that Oswald never had a tonsillectomy in the first place - though Marguerite certainly believed he did. But either way (growing back, or not taken out in the first place), Armstrong's claims are junk science.

Maybe more on "The Early Years" later.  Right now I'm in danger of bursting a blood vessel.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:20 am

In January, 1947 Marguerite and Ekdahl reunited and she and LEE moved into Ekdahl's apartment on 8th Avenue. Seven year old LEE, shown at right, was enrolled at nearby Lilly Clayton Elementary school and, on May 30, completed the first grade. His two older brothers returned home to Ft. Worth from the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy and the family spent the summer together in Ft. Worth. John Pic told the Warren Commission that he got a summer job at the Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor, 5 blocks south of their apartment, and was soon promoted to assistant manager.

All good here, though there is more to it than Armstrong seems to have cottoned onto. All explained in LHOCW Wink 

During the late 1940s and early 1950s thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States. National Security Council records show that Frank Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. The CIA secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the late 1940s and 1950s. Many were resettled in New York City, where they learned to speak English, and continued their propaganda efforts against the Soviet Union with the patronage of the CIA. A young boy, later given the name "HARVEY Oswald" may have been among these Eastern European refugees and, along with his caretaker (a woman who was given the name "Marguerite Oswald"), may have been subjects of a CIA related file. In January, 1953, the House on Un-American Activities in New York had a file on a "Marguerite Oswald." This file contained references to 1941, Nazi's, New Jersey, and was eventually discovered in a CIA office of Security file. The Assassination Records Review Board requested this file, which apparently contained background information related to "Marguerite Oswald," but their request was denied.

Again all good... at least until the speculation about a kid plucked from obscurity for a star turn in the role of Harvey. While concentrating on his imaginative speculations, Armstrong missed something of potential relevance that is known to be a fact. John Pic married into an Eastern European refugee family, and while Lee was in NY, worked on Ellis Island with the intelligence unit of the Coast Guard. Ellis Island was where such refugees were vetted for entry.

On the Marguerite material... I would like to know the circumstances behind Armstrong finding out about this alleged file. There may or may not be something to it, but until I can verify that this isn't more of Armstrong's imagination at work, it's not worthy of taking seriously.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 7:14 am

When was the picture on the left taken, what year?

It's hard for me to imagine that Sturgis and them would have been hanging out with the likes of the one on the right.

Have you seen the pics of Sturgis' last girlfriend? Ay ay ay. The man had a good eye, what can I say. Smile

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 7:30 am

greg parker wrote:It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

There's nothing quite like using good old common sense to debunk a non-sensical theory.

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Thu 06 Mar 2014, 9:10 am

Well, something leapt out at me as I was re-reading the Harvey and Lee web pages last night.

If you believe the Harvey and Lee theory, then Guy Bannister must have known. He must have known they were one and the same (or rather, specifically, two people using the same identity).

Because, to quote from the web site's home page:

On January 20, 1961, while Harvey Oswald was in Russia, LEE Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford Dealership in New Orleans to purchase ten trucks for Cuba on behalf of former FBI agent Guy Banister and Gerald Tujague's Friends of Democratic Cuba (LEE Oswald worked for Tujague in 1955-56).

But it's unquestionably HARVEY who's distributing the pro-Castro leaflets in the news photos and all the photos with Bringuier. And we have at least two reports of Bannister (upon being notified of the leafleting activity) saying something to the effect of, "Nevermind" (or "leave him alone"), "He's one of ours".

So, the Harvey and Lee theory kind of puts Bannister in the hot seat, doesn't it?

I can think of two scenarios that would fit the theory: either Bannister knew that there were two entirely different people using the same ID, or, he thought he had found a dead ringer for the "real" LEE that he'd known from the past.

Either way, the scope of Bannister activities outside of his relationship with Harvey/Lee would become vastly more important, yes? And, this is an area that the web site pays virtually no attention to. Surely I'm not the first to notice this?

When Bannister was involved in buying vehicles for Cuba, he was dealing with LEE. When he was involved in the leafleting, he was dealing with HARVEY. So either he knew they were "one and the same", or he believed something else. Hm.

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Thu 06 Mar 2014, 9:25 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
greg parker wrote:It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

There's nothing quite like using good old common sense to debunk a non-sensical theory.

Well, what part of it do you believe? All of it? None of it? Somewhere in between?

Seems to me, Armstrong has done a heckuva lot of investigative work, some of it's real good. There's a lot of things that need explaining, aren't there?

The way I read the Harvey and Lee theory, the central crux of it is, that it was a different guy in Japan. In other words, HARVEY is the one who defected to the Soviet Union, and therefore the one who married Marina and came back and got involved in the Kennedy assassination, but LEE is actually the guy who was at Atsugi (sp?) in Japan doing the U-2 stuff - and at the time, HARVEY was actually working at Pfisterer in the good ol' US of A. That's one of the central nodes in the theory, right?

And, that's supposed to explain a "lot of stuff", like why we have conflicting reports about Oswald's Russian-speaking abilities, and his driving skills, and even his marksmanship and so on.

One of the most interesting portions of the theory in my view, is the part about the cover-up of the evidence. The claims that Hoover's people had an agenda to actually collect and destroy all of the childhood evidence, and then plant false information around it like the W-2's and so on. This part, I dunno... it kinda rings true. Something must have been going on there, 'cause the pattern is too strong, it kinda leaps out at you from the page. What's the reality here, what's your take?

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 7:15 am

nonsqtr wrote:Well, what part of it do you believe? All of it? None of it? Somewhere in between?

I don't believe there was a Harvey Oswald. I only believe that there was a Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that Armstrong did a lot of research, but it doesn't make his theory a fact. I honestly don't have the time to go through my reasons for dismissing the H and L theory, but I highly recommend you read through the following (if you haven't already), to understand why the H and L theory is just that, a theory:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18558

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t44-why-oswald-was-more-likely-to-have-suffered-aspergers-than-dyslexia?highlight=asperger

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 8:03 am

nonsqtr wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:
greg parker wrote:It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

There's nothing quite like using good old common sense to debunk a non-sensical theory.

Well, what part of it do you believe? All of it? None of it? Somewhere in between?

Seems to me, Armstrong has done a heckuva lot of investigative work, some of it's real good. There's a lot of things that need explaining, aren't there?

The way I read the Harvey and Lee theory, the central crux of it is, that it was a different guy in Japan. In other words, HARVEY is the one who defected to the Soviet Union, and therefore the one who married Marina and came back and got involved in the Kennedy assassination, but LEE is actually the guy who was at Atsugi (sp?) in Japan doing the U-2 stuff - and at the time, HARVEY was actually working at Pfisterer in the good ol' US of A. That's one of the central nodes in the theory, right?

And, that's supposed to explain a "lot of stuff", like why we have conflicting reports about Oswald's Russian-speaking abilities, and his driving skills, and even his marksmanship and so on.

One of the most interesting portions of the theory in my view, is the part about the cover-up of the evidence. The claims that Hoover's people had an agenda to actually collect and destroy all of the childhood evidence, and then plant false information around it like the W-2's and so on. This part, I dunno... it kinda rings true. Something must have been going on there, 'cause the pattern is too strong, it kinda leaps out at you from the page. What's the reality here, what's your take?
Quick response which I will expand on later if needed...

1. Armstrong based his "one in Japan - one in Fort Worth" theory around the memory of Palmer McBride. That memory is now proven to be faulty.

2. Their are conflicting reports about a lot of people in history. That doesn't prove there were dopplegangers of all of them. In this case, their are conflicting reports, memories and opinions also about Ruby, JFK and others. 

3. There are no conflicting records about Oswald's ability with a rifle - only conflicting interpretations and memories.

4. Oswald had good reason to hide his Russian-speaking ability to some in Russia. 

5. Oswald could drive to whatever level of competency. That he didn't have a car doesn't mean he never drove. And if he drove, it doesn't mean he had a license to do so. 

6. Most (and maybe even all) of the "Harvey" sightings in Dallas during October/November were without any doubt in my mind, actually of Larry Crafard.

7. The alleged collection and destruction of evidence is extremely questionable around Armstrong's claims. One example - Stripling. Did you know that the star witness here - Frank Kudlaty - was an old college friend of Jack White and that Jack White was one of the creators of this theory? You won't find that out in "Harvey and Lee" because that relationship is not declared. It only came to light at all because I questioned Kudlaty's story and the late JW sprung to his defense by declaring he had been a friend since college and he could therefore vouch for his honesty. When I told Jack I thought that the relationship should have been declared in the book because it creates a kind of "conflict of interest" situation, JW backtracked at a hundred mile an hour and suddenly changed his story. Kudlaty was now transformed into a mere acquaintance who JW hadn't actually seen in 50 years. So I then asked, if this second story was true, how he could vouch for his honesty? I don't think I ever got a straight answer to that - just abuse.  

------------------------

I break Oswald "sightings" into different categories.

The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Albert Rossi on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 8:42 am

greg parker wrote:The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

E.g., Mexico City.

Greg, do you think there was a "Leon" Oswald in New Orleans (this is quite apart from the Harvey/Lee business), as several people (including Garrison) came to believe?  For instance, who was it that Perry Russo met in the company of Shaw and Ferrie?

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:06 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
nonsqtr wrote:Well, what part of it do you believe? All of it? None of it? Somewhere in between?

I don't believe there was a Harvey Oswald. I only believe that there was a Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that Armstrong did a lot of research, but it doesn't make his theory a fact. I honestly don't have the time to go through my reasons for dismissing the H and L theory, but I highly recommend you read through the following (if you haven't already), to understand why the H and L theory is just that, a theory:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18558

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t44-why-oswald-was-more-likely-to-have-suffered-aspergers-than-dyslexia?highlight=asperger

Thanks Hasan, nice to meet you. I've been reading some of your blogs. Smile

Good stuff, I will check into these links.

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:16 am

greg parker wrote:
nonsqtr wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:
greg parker wrote:It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

There's nothing quite like using good old common sense to debunk a non-sensical theory.
What's the reality here, what's your take?
Quick response which I will expand on later if needed...

6. Most (and maybe even all) of the "Harvey" sightings in Dallas during October/November were without any doubt in my mind, actually of Larry Crafard.

7. The alleged collection and destruction of evidence is extremely questionable around Armstrong's claims. One example - Stripling. Did you know that the star witness here - Frank Kudlaty - was an old college friend of Jack White and that Jack White was one of the creators of this theory? You won't find that out in "Harvey and Lee" because that relationship is not declared. It only came to light at all because I questioned Kudlaty's story and the late JW sprung to his defense by declaring he had been a friend since college and he could therefore vouch for his honesty. When I told Jack I thought that the relationship should have been declared in the book because it creates a kind of "conflict of interest" situation, JW backtracked at a hundred mile an hour and suddenly changed his story. Kudlaty was now transformed into a mere acquaintance who JW hadn't actually seen in 50 years. So I then asked, if this second story was true, how he could vouch for his honesty? I don't think I ever got a straight answer to that - just abuse.  

------------------------

I break Oswald "sightings" into different categories.

The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

Hi Greg, the number 6 there, that's a real interesting take. Are you refering to the radio station sightings and so on? Do we know Larry Crafard's itinerary between Sept 25 and Oct 4? And, by November sightings are you refering to the Dobbs restaurant and that?

Thanks for the info on #7, that's my handicap is I'm jumping in kind of "in the middle". It's unfortunate that people get invested in their own efforts, I mean, I understand how and why it happens but this Kennedy thing is... too important. I probably don't want to start into that logic right now, the truth is just "important", that's all. IMO. Smile

What's your take on the Clinton LA "sightings"? Was that Oswald?


Last edited by nonsqtr on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:17 am

:: Tapping my inner Armstrong ::
 
JOHN Wilkes Booth was a successful actor who hated Lincoln and strongly opposed the elimination of slavery in the United States. When JOHN Booth was a boy, unseen right wing government "handlers" took note of him. They looked ahead a couple of decades to a time when a man would be elected President who would hate slavery so strongly that he would force the nation to either abolish it or go to war. The right wingers had "plans" for JOHN.
 
These handlers also took note of another boy. This boy was a little ruffian without a father who had no real role models. He was a loner, but he loved President Lincoln and the Union. He bore a strong resemblance to JOHN Booth. They told this boy his name would be WILKES Booth and they would use him as an informant. Here they are, side by side, as men:



His handlers allowed WILKES to defect to the South. After working on a plantation for a couple of years and marrying a southern girl, he came back up North. Displaying erratic, puzzling behavior, WILKES Booth did things like pass out "Fair Play for the Confederacy" flyers and so on. But this is what his handlers asked him to do. For the Union.

There's so much more of the story that could be told here, but suffice it to say here that things culminated on April 14, 1865 in Ford's Theatre. JOHN Booth played a key role in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. After the shots were fired, WILKES Booth, working as a stage hand standing off to the side of the stage in the shadows, realized he had been set up and stood frozen for a moment with his hands folded as if he were praying. The he fled.

WILKES Booth escaped but was eventually hunted down and shot while hiding in a Virginia barn. He was reported to have said "I'm not resisting arrest!" JOHN Booth also fled Ford's Theatre and was never seen again.

Hmmm, maybe I should write a book.

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Guest on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:20 am

Stan Dane wrote::: Tapping my inner Armstrong ::
 
JOHN Wilkes Booth was a successful actor who hated Lincoln and strongly opposed the elimination of slavery in the United States. When JOHN Booth was a boy, unseen right wing government "handlers" took note of him. They looked ahead a couple of decades to a time when a man would be elected President who would hate slavery so strongly that he would force the nation to either abolish it or go to war. The right wingers had "plans" for JOHN.
 
These handlers also took note of another boy. This boy was a little ruffian without a father who had no real role models. He was a loner, but he loved President Lincoln and the Union. He bore a strong resemblance to JOHN Booth. They told this boy his name would be WILKES Booth and they would use him as an informant. Here they are, side by side, as men:



His handlers allowed WILKES to defect to the South. After working on a plantation for a couple of years and marrying a southern girl, he came back up North. Displaying erratic, puzzling behavior, WILKES Booth did things like pass out "Fair Play for the Confederacy" flyers and so on. But this is what his handlers asked him to do. For the Union.

There's so much more of the story that could be told here, but suffice it to say here that things culminated on April 14, 1865 in Ford's Theatre. JOHN Booth played a key role in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. After the shots were fired, WILKES Booth, working as a stage hand standing off to the side of the stage in the shadows, realized he had been set up and stood frozen for a moment with his hands folded as if he were praying. The he fled.

WILKES Booth escaped but was eventually hunted down and shot while hiding in a Virginia barn. He was reported to have said "I'm not resisting arrest!" JOHN Booth also fled Ford's Theatre and was never seen again.

Hmmm, maybe I should write a book.

Ha ha - good one Stan! If I were Oswald I'd probably start grumbling about capitalists at this point.  Very Happy

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:24 am

Albert Rossi wrote:
greg parker wrote:The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

E.g., Mexico City.

Greg, do you think there was a "Leon" Oswald in New Orleans (this is quite apart from the Harvey/Lee business), as several people (including Garrison) came to believe?  For instance, who was it that Perry Russo met in the company of Shaw and Ferrie?
Albert, have spent very little time on Russo, so I'm undecided about this. One the one hand, I find it curious (and perhaps supportive) of Russo that Odio's alleged visitor was also "Leon". 

On the other hand, I can't grasp the sense in anyone deliberately trying to fool people that they are "Lee Harvey Oswald" by using a variation on the first name.

True story: There actually was (and is) a Leon Oswald in Louisiana who happens to be a somewhat distant cousin to Lee. That's not really all that amazing. It becomes not only amazing. but downright bizarre when you learn his full and true birth name is "Leon Double Oswald". 

I've actually spoken to his wife (he was out when I rang). See, I got a tip that Tulane records showed that a "Leon Double Oswald" was a student there during the early sixties. 

According to his wife however, it was actually during the early seventies. And that middle name? It was actually his mother's maiden name. Sometimes there really are mundane explanations for what looks suspicious.

Oh, and did the family think Lee was guilty? Hell, yes. I didn't argue... didn't see the point. She knew little and cared even less, and they had never actually met Lee.

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Albert Rossi on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 9:31 am

greg parker wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:
greg parker wrote:The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

E.g., Mexico City.

Greg, do you think there was a "Leon" Oswald in New Orleans (this is quite apart from the Harvey/Lee business), as several people (including Garrison) came to believe?  For instance, who was it that Perry Russo met in the company of Shaw and Ferrie?
Albert, have spent very little time on Russo, so I'm undecided about this. One the one hand, I find it curious (and perhaps supportive) of Russo that Odio's alleged visitor was also "Leon". 

Russo has no opinion about it being a double he met.  This conjecture is drawn by others.  Russo I think is pretty unshakable as a witness.

On the other hand, I can't grasp the sense in anyone deliberately trying to fool people that they are "Lee Harvey Oswald" by using a variation on the first name.

True story: There actually was (and is) a Leon Oswald in Louisiana who happens to be a somewhat distant cousin to Lee. That's not really all that amazing. It becomes not only amazing. but downright bizarre when you learn his full and true birth name is "Leon Double Oswald". 

OMG. ROFLAHMS


I've actually spoken to his wife (he was out when I rang). See, I got a tip that Tulane records showed that a "Leon Double Oswald" was a student there during the early sixties. 

According to his wife however, it was actually during the early seventies. And that middle name? It was actually his mother's maiden name. Sometimes there really are mundane explanations for what looks suspicious.

Oh, and did the family think Lee was guilty? Hell, yes. I didn't argue... didn't see the point. She knew little and cared even less, and they had never actually met Lee.


Thanks, Greg.

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 10:47 am

Albert, here is one possible explanation for both Russo and Odio (who had an uncle in New Orleans) referring to a Leon. However this explanation only works in the context of both fabricating their stories. I'm not advocating it, just throwing it out there:


Four months later, in early August 1963, Edisen received an envelope in the mail with no return address and her name and address printed in a very crude scrawl. Enclosed, in a wadded up form, was the box-like drawing made by Jose Rivera on April 23, 1963 at the Marriott Hotel restaurant in Washington D.C., when Rivera made mention of men on the "fifth floor." Also in August, Edisen saw Oswald on television, handing out Fair Play for Cuba leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. She recalled the announcer referring to him as "Leon" Oswald, noticed the similarity in names, and wondered if it was a coincidence.
http://www.namebase.org/edisen.html
So if you saw that footage, and the announcer really did mistakenly call him Leon - then that same error might crop up later in any attempts to implicate Oswald in the belief that it was his real name...

Whilst I have no firm opinion on Russo - I do on Odio. I don't believe she had any visitor pretending to be Oswald. I do think however that she believed she did.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 11:01 am

nonsqtr wrote:
greg parker wrote:
nonsqtr wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:
greg parker wrote:It's called "the aging process". Armstrong needs to leave Neverland and check it out.

There's nothing quite like using good old common sense to debunk a non-sensical theory.
What's the reality here, what's your take?
Quick response which I will expand on later if needed...

6. Most (and maybe even all) of the "Harvey" sightings in Dallas during October/November were without any doubt in my mind, actually of Larry Crafard.

7. The alleged collection and destruction of evidence is extremely questionable around Armstrong's claims. One example - Stripling. Did you know that the star witness here - Frank Kudlaty - was an old college friend of Jack White and that Jack White was one of the creators of this theory? You won't find that out in "Harvey and Lee" because that relationship is not declared. It only came to light at all because I questioned Kudlaty's story and the late JW sprung to his defense by declaring he had been a friend since college and he could therefore vouch for his honesty. When I told Jack I thought that the relationship should have been declared in the book because it creates a kind of "conflict of interest" situation, JW backtracked at a hundred mile an hour and suddenly changed his story. Kudlaty was now transformed into a mere acquaintance who JW hadn't actually seen in 50 years. So I then asked, if this second story was true, how he could vouch for his honesty? I don't think I ever got a straight answer to that - just abuse.  

------------------------

I break Oswald "sightings" into different categories.

The ones that need to be considered suspicious are the ones where the real Oswald was most certainly somewhere else AND the person is actually using the name Oswald while making some sort of memorable scene. There are not too many instance where all of this applies.

Hi Greg, the number 6 there, that's a real interesting take. Are you refering to the radio station sightings and so on? Do we know Larry Crafard's itinerary between Sept 25 and Oct 4? And, by November sightings are you refering to the Dobbs restaurant and that?

Thanks for the info on #7, that's my handicap is I'm jumping in kind of "in the middle". It's unfortunate that people get invested in their own efforts, I mean, I understand how and why it happens but this Kennedy thing is... too important. I probably don't want to start into that logic right now, the truth is just "important", that's all. IMO. Smile

What's your take on the Clinton LA "sightings"? Was that Oswald?
Haven't looked in depth at the radio sighting - but most definitely "yes" to the Dobbs restaurant and myriad others. Clinton is another area I have pretty much left alone. Not for any reason other than it's pretty much been done to death and the demarcation lines are strongly etched. It's not worth the effort of me "going there". I'm mainly interested in material that is new and therefore is not divisive.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Albert Rossi on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 11:53 am

greg parker wrote:Albert, here is one possible explanation for both Russo and Odio (who had an uncle in New Orleans) referring to a Leon. However this explanation only works in the context of both fabricating their stories. I'm not advocating it, just throwing it out there:


Four months later, in early August 1963, Edisen received an envelope in the mail with no return address and her name and address printed in a very crude scrawl. Enclosed, in a wadded up form, was the box-like drawing made by Jose Rivera on April 23, 1963 at the Marriott Hotel restaurant in Washington D.C., when Rivera made mention of men on the "fifth floor." Also in August, Edisen saw Oswald on television, handing out Fair Play for Cuba leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. She recalled the announcer referring to him as "Leon" Oswald, noticed the similarity in names, and wondered if it was a coincidence.
http://www.namebase.org/edisen.html
So if you saw that footage, and the announcer really did mistakenly call him Leon - then that same error might crop up later in any attempts to implicate Oswald in the belief that it was his real name...

Whilst I have no firm opinion on Russo - I do on Odio. I don't believe she had any visitor pretending to be Oswald. I do think however that she believed she did.


Greg, I guess I'll just have to politely disagree on Odio.

As for the Edisen story, I think there is a lot more to the Leon id than just this announcer.  See, for instance, the arguments offered by Jim in
Destiny Betrayed (2012): 248-249.

As to why such a transparent "transformation" of the name, this case is full of things like that.  I guess that's not a real explanation, but it's enough for me not to jump to the conclusion that there is nothing really going on here.

Just my view, FWIW.


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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by greg parker on Fri 07 Mar 2014, 12:18 pm

Albert Rossi wrote:
greg parker wrote:Albert, here is one possible explanation for both Russo and Odio (who had an uncle in New Orleans) referring to a Leon. However this explanation only works in the context of both fabricating their stories. I'm not advocating it, just throwing it out there:


Four months later, in early August 1963, Edisen received an envelope in the mail with no return address and her name and address printed in a very crude scrawl. Enclosed, in a wadded up form, was the box-like drawing made by Jose Rivera on April 23, 1963 at the Marriott Hotel restaurant in Washington D.C., when Rivera made mention of men on the "fifth floor." Also in August, Edisen saw Oswald on television, handing out Fair Play for Cuba leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. She recalled the announcer referring to him as "Leon" Oswald, noticed the similarity in names, and wondered if it was a coincidence.
http://www.namebase.org/edisen.html
So if you saw that footage, and the announcer really did mistakenly call him Leon - then that same error might crop up later in any attempts to implicate Oswald in the belief that it was his real name...

Whilst I have no firm opinion on Russo - I do on Odio. I don't believe she had any visitor pretending to be Oswald. I do think however that she believed she did.


Greg, I guess I'll just have to politely disagree on Odio.

As for the Edisen story, I think there is a lot more to the Leon id than just this announcer.  See, for instance, the arguments offered by Jim in
Destiny Betrayed (2012): 248-249.

As to why such a transparent "transformation" of the name, this case is full of things like that.  I guess that's not a real explanation, but it's enough for me not to jump to the conclusion that there is nothing really going on here.

Just my view, FWIW.

Albert. No problem. You may well be right about the "Leon" name and that its use was deeper than I'm stating. Like I said, the NO claims of Russo and others are not ones I've spent much time on and anything I say about it should be viewed with that in mind.

Odio is a different package. I have my reasons there for saying what i did. They may end up being totally wrong - but I'm just differentiating between the two situations as far as how much I've delved into them.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: "Harvey & Lee: the early years

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 08 Mar 2014, 7:08 am

nonsqtr wrote:Thanks Hasan, nice to meet you. I've been reading some of your blogs.

Good stuff, I will check into these links.

Nice to meet you too. And thanks for taking the time to read through my blog.

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