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Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

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Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by Guest on Tue 28 Sep 2010, 11:16 am

According to his Warren Commission testimony (VI, pp. 349-355), Charles Givens took the east elevator back up to the 6th floor at about 12:00 noon to retrieve a pack of cigarettes from his jacket. Alone on the 6th after the floor-layers' elevator race, Givens had an incriminating sighting of Oswald leaving the area of the sniper's nest. Givens was the only person to place Oswald on the 6th after noontime, and thus became a critical eyewitness for the government's case.

Whether or not Givens actually took this trip was thrown into doubt by researcher Sylvia Meagher in her classic 1971 essay "The Curious Testimony of Mr. Givens" (http://www.dukelane.com/meagher1971)- her major theme being that Givens never mentioned this cigarette trip until his April testimony, despite several key opportunities to do so.

However, floor-layers Bonnie Ray Williams (III, p. 167) and Danny Arce (VI, p. 364) each testified that Givens had participated in the elevator race. And since the general consensus was that the race had occurred at approximately 11:50, their testimony supported Givens, in that it placed him on the 1st floor at an appropriate time for taking the east elevator back up to get his cigarettes and to witness Oswald.

But the HSCA interview of Edward Shields swings the pendulum back decidedly in Miss Meagher's favor.

*

As Shields recounts on pp. 17-18, Givens "worked steady" at the Houston St. warehouse and in fact reported for work there every morning. He went "back and forth" to help out at the Depository.

Granted, Shields' interview did not take place until 1977, but there were only two other people working at the 4-story Houston St. warehouse the week of the assassination, and it would be relatively easy memory work for Shields to sort out and recollect that Givens was a part of this skeleton crew.

Shields remembered leaving the warehouse for his lunch break on the 22nd "about 10 minutes to 12" (p. 4). This time estimate harmonizes with his Warren Commission estimate of reaching the Classified Parking Lot (across the street and kitty-corner from the Dal-Tex Building) at "5 after 12" (VII, p. 394)- alloting him 5 or more minutes to walk the 400 yards to the Depository, 5 or less minutes to rendevous with Givens, and 5 further minutes to walk up to the parking lot. They had a comfortable timespan then to chat with lot manager James Tracey and proceed the 125 yards from there to the corner of Main & Record Streets, in front of Mullendorf's Cafe, to get a viewing spot for the motorcade- which was expected to pass by that point between 12:20-12:25.

But Shields' 11:50 memory does not harmonize at all with Givens' claim that he took the east elevator up at 12:00 noon.

*

Givens gave the distinct impression on November 22nd that he left the 6th floor for keeps at 11:30 and dillydallied on the 1st floor until lunchtime. He and Shields routinely visited the Classified Parking Lot at lunch and this apparently gave Givens an excuse to break away early from the floor-laying crew.

His DPD affidavit states: "I worked up on the 6th floor today until about 11:30 am. Then I went downstairs and into the bathroom. At twelve o'clock I took my lunch period."

A bit later that afternoon of the 22nd FBI agents Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin recorded that "GIVENS worked on the sixth floor of the building until about 11:30 A.M., when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor where he used the restroom at about 11:35 A.M. or 11:40 A.M. GIVENS then walked around on the first floor until 12 o'clock noon, at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood for several minutes, then walked to the Classified Parking Lot at Elm and Records Street."

So, Givens gave absolutely no indication on the 22nd that he ever returned to the 6th floor after 11:30 A.M. Indeed, he would have been hard-pressed to return upstairs in the east elevator, walk to his jacket at the west end of the 6th floor, descend again and rendevous with Shields in sufficient time for them to make it to The Classified Parking Lot at 12:05- particularly when Shields' version of events brings him from the warehouse to the Depository between 11:55-12:00.

The next day Givens received corroboration for his elevator descent from Bonnie Ray Williams, who told agents Odum and Griffin that "on November 22, 1963, he worked installing flooring on the sixth floor of the building until 11:30 a.m. At that time, he went down on an elevator from the sixth floor to the first floor. At the same time, CHARLES GIVENS was on the other elevator, descending at the same time. As they were going down, he saw LEE on the fifth floor."

Wiliams is stating here that he took an elevator down 20 minutes before the elevator race. This discrepancy was never explored in his lengthy testimony, whether it was for a bathroom break or to get something and return upstairs. His 11:30 estimate is not a mere casual recollection of what time it was, since it matched Givens' estimated time of descent. Both of these men knew when lunchtime started.

Nor is Givens' own 11:30 estimate a mere casual recollection of when the elevator race started. Because if he had been in the race, and if he had returned to the 6th floor for his cigarettes, as Givens alleged, afterwards he stood by a 1st-floor window with Harold Norman and James Jarman, and then he went outside and "ate my sandwich standing out there." (VI, p. 351).

He couldn't have made it to the Classified Parking Lot by 12:05 and would have been hard-pressed to make it to Mullendorf's Cafe by 12:20.

On the contrary, Givens' 11:30 estimate appears instead to be an accurate recollection of when he actually took the elevator downstairs.

When Warren Commission counsel Joseph Ball brought up Williams' November 23rd FBI affidavit, Williams testified that he'd actually told the agents he'd seen Lee Oswald on either the 5th or the 6th floor; that he'd told the agents he "wasn't sure" (III, p. 168). Williams successfully dodged the question. And Ball did not query him regarding his 11:30 time estimate.

Williams' "corroboration" of Givens' 11:30 descent occurred in his FBI affidavit immediately preceding a demonstable falsehood- that he'd taken the east elevator up to the 6th floor at noon and eaten his lunch up there. This contradicted his own DPD affidavit of the 22nd and the 1977 HSCA interview of Harold Norman (pp. 4-5, 7).

The reason for this falsehood was that somebody would have to be blamed for bringing the chicken lunch & Dr. Pepper bottle to the 6th floor- reported by the media and observed by several of the officers who'd participated in the crime scene search. These items, if attributed to an assassin, would not have held up to scrutiny since there was no incriminating chicken grease to be found on the alleged murder weapon nor assassin's fingerprints on the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Williams had been intimidated into changing his story overnight- and the intimidator was most probably Captain Will Fritz (or one of his subordinates) since Fritz was on the 5th floor with photographer Tom Alyea when Alyea witnessed chicken remnants there, and it was Fritz who had ultimate control over the crime investigation (and hence the FBI affidavits). Another possibility is that Williams had been intimidated by someone in the Book Depository hierarchy who had participated in the assassination plot.

This was a big reason why Williams was especially "shook up" for 2 or 3 weeks after the assassination, as Roy Truly commented (III, p. 241).

Williams' "corroboration" instead appears to be another one of his lies. Givens' November 22nd FBI affidavit had also included a sighting of Oswald: "GIVENS recalls observing LEE working on the fifth floor during the morning filling orders. LEE was standing by the elevator in the building at 11:30 A.M. when GIVENS went to the first floor. When he started down in the elevator, LEE yelled at him to close the gates on the elevator so that he (LEE) could have the elevator returned to the sixth floor."

There is no longer a foundation for assuming that, at the start of the 11:50 elevator race, Lee Oswald was left stranded and called down, "Guys, how about an elevator?" This particular incident may have actually occurred at 11:30, and been homogenized into the accounts of the elevator race. And it is also doubtful that supervisor William Shelley had to give an official OK for the floor-laying crew to break for lunch, as this permission evidently did not apply when it concerned Charles Givens.

O what a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to deceive-and the student of this case is left holding sand once again.

Further, during the first hour after the assassination, as Inspector Herbert Sawyer was coordinating the building search from the front entrance, "somebody" [William Shelley perhaps?] approached him and told him that Givens "was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there" i.e. up on the 6th floor at lunchtime (VI, p. 321). But Givens wasn't anywhere near the 6th floor then.

Sawyer (if he's being honest) was intentionally fed this misinformation by this "somebody" to help conceal the circumstance- should it ever be revealed- that another self-described black "building porter"- namely Eddie Piper- had actually been the one who had witnesseed Oswald on the 6th at lunchtime.

And a valid reason for concealing Piper's presence on the 6th would be if he had participated in the assassination plot.

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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by Guest on Sat 02 Oct 2010, 11:53 am

During the last couple of months the revelations from this House of Mystery- the Texas School Book Depository- have brought a complete reassessment of activities within the building on November 22, 1963. It comes as no big surprise that Bonnie Ray Williams' and Charles Givens' alleged elevator trips are now debunked. As the coverup took shape, the archconspirators evidently required these two chumps to have any hope of framing the patsy.

And thanks to the brilliant investigative research of Greg Parker & Sean Murphy, the lunchroom encounter is kaput. The 5'9" 165 lb person wearing a light brown jacket that Marrion Baker described encountering near the 4th-floor stairway, vouched for as an "employee" by Roy Truly, does not sound the least bit like that "big husky fellow" Jack Dougherty. It seems near-certain that Mr. 4th Floor Man continued down the stairway as a means of escaping. Did he exit the building via the West Annex, using the door next to the carport?

Not forgetting "Balloon Head" from Dillard A, over in the west window on the 6th floor, I would postulate that he hastened for the freight elevator once Truly rang the service bell downstairs, and hitched a ride down with Dougherty. This west elevator certainly began its descent while Truly & baker were in mid-ascent between the 2nd & 4th floor landings. If the 2nd, 3rd & 4th floor outer gates had been closed, nobody would have noticed even the elevator cables moving.

And then there's James Worrell, having run about a block in back of the TSBD, turning around and seeing a dark-haired man about 5'9" but in a dark jacket fleeing from the loading dock.

I predict that Robert Groden's yet-to-be-published interview of (presumably) Geneva Hine will also help thoroughly debunk Mrs. Robert Reid's alleged 2nd-floor encounter with Oswald & his Coke & only a white t-shirt- putting an end to any notion that Oswald was ever in the lunchroom after the assassination.

She claimed to have glanced at the upper-floor windows after hearing the shots, engaged in a 3-sentence conversation with TSBD VP Ochus Campbell, and then run up the lobby stairs back into the office, arriving as Oswald emerged through the back office door adjacent to the lunchroom. She came in alone and when she came in didn't see anybody else there. David Belin did a re-enactment with her and his trusty stopwatch clocked her at 2 minutes flat.

Lately I've been reviewing the testimony of Geneva Hine. She had worked at the Depository since 1956, about the same as Mrs. Reid, and had a B.S. in theology from Assembly of God College in Waxahachie, TX. She volunteered to handle the phones so the other women could go out and watch the President since she'd seen him before. She was alone in the 2nd-floor office as the motorcade approached.

BALL: Was there a switchboard?
HINE: No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system...
I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got upand thought I could see it from the east window in our office."

[At 12:28/27 the Lucite display lights on the phone went out & it seems that she lifted a receiver but heard no dial tone. This temporary phone outage may have been caused by a negative power surge (a sudden depletion of current) from the elevator power cables, if the phone lines inside the building ran adjacent to these power cables for any part of their layout. The same physical principle, but acting in the opposite manner, is why a lightning strike to your house can electrocute you if you are using a land line- in that case a positive power surge induces an overload of current into the land line.
A good reason to shut off the 440-volt boxes powering the elevators would be to insure absolutely that nobody disturbed the men on the 6th floor. Where was Wesley Frazier at 12:28?]

Geneva noticed the presidential limousine come toward her on Houston and make the turn onto Elm. Then she heard 3 shots, "like cannon shots they were so terrific", which vibrated the building.

"...I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk... and my first thought was that if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer... and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons & Carnahan...

BALL: What did you do then?
HINE: I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Whatley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door.

[According to her March FBI interview at WCH XXII p. 680, Lee Whatley went shopping during lunch at a department store up on Elm Street beyond the Dal-Tex]

HINE: I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because the windows face out.
BALL: On to Elm?
HINE: Yes; and on to the triple underpass.
BALL: I see.
HINE: And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the dor.
BALL: Was the door locked?
HINE: Yes, sir.
BALL: That was which comapny?
HINE: Southwestern Publishing Co.
BALL: Did you call to her?
HINE: I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains.

[Mrs. John L. (Carol) Hughes was inside and I'm aware of no other information about her, besides her March FBI interview at XXII p. 654-which does not mention this phone call.
She stated that she watched the motorcade and saw the President being shot. Who was she calling? Why would she lock the door?]

HINE: I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
BALL: Of your office, the second floor office?
HINE: Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.
BALL: Did they come in rapidly?
HINE: They did come in rapidly.
BALL: When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
HINE: No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
BALL: Did you see anybody else go in through there?
HINE: No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
BALL: Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
HINE: No, sir; not to my knowledge.
BALL: Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
HINE: Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those...

BALL: Who were they?
HINE: Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina, Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.


How much time did Geneva Hine take to arrive at the rear door to the office after the 3rd shot? If she stood at the east window for 30 seconds, took 15 further seconds to finish knocking at Lyons & Carnahan, and additional 25 seconds to finish knocking at Southwestern Publishing, and 10 more seconds to walk through the back hall- she arrived at the rear office door, next to the lunchroom, only 80 seconds after the shots- 20 seconds ahead of Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. Reid's story is kaput, if you ask me.

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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by Guest on Fri 08 Oct 2010, 5:25 am

Taking Oswald out of the lunchroom entirely, in terms of his immediate post-assassination whereabouts, accentuates the importance of his encounter on the front steps with WFAA program director Pierce Allman.

At the moment of the shots, one may opt for Robert Groden's account from his September 17, 2009 Black Op Radio interview- of an unspecified TSBD employee telling him Oswald had been in the 2nd-floor office getting change for a dollar- or Ochus Campbell's account in the November 23 New York Heral Tribune, which stated that Oswald had been in a small storage room on the 1st floor.

In either case, Oswald proceeded to the front lobby/entrance foyer, which would have consumed 20-30 seconds. Three sources place him there at approximately 30-40 seconds after the shots.

There is the Sydney Morning Herald article from November 23: "During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

This early cop encounter is corroborated by the HSCA interview of James Jarman, pp. 2-3: "...I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and came down the front stairs and he wa sstopped by the officer that had stopped us and sent us back in the building and Mr. Truly told them that he was alright, that he worked here... there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there..."

And then there is Oswald himself, as related by Postal Inspector Harry Holmes' report filed regarding the Sunday morning November 24 interrogation (Warren Report, p. 636): "...the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that 'he is one of our employees' whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily..."

And in Holmes' testimony (VII, p. 302): [Oswald] said, 'I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later."

Thus there is a rather strong indication from 3 independent sources that Oswald encountered Marrion Baker & Roy Truly at the front entrance, not long after Baker had dashed up the front steps. This incident, of course, was suppressed.

*

Following this exchange Oswald had an encounter with two men he described as displaying Secret Service identification. One cannot be sure whether he was hintng to his interrogators that there were phony Secret Servicemen in Dealey Plaza, or, like many, Oswald was simply in a confused and hurried state of mind at the time. Oswald related this encounter twice.

The Secret Service investigated this incident and ascertained that (WCD 354, p. 4): "Lee Harvey Oswald in the first interview subsequent to his arrest, stated that as he was leaving the Texas School Book Depository Building, two men (one with a crew cut) had interrupted him at the front door; identified themselves as Secret Service agents and asked for the location of a telephone."

This had been reported by Captain Fritz on November 22 to Dallas SAIC Forrest Sorrels. Sorrels' memo of this information disappeared.

And in the report filed regarding the Sunday morning November 24 interrogation by SS Inspector Thomas Kelley (Warren Report, p. 629): [Oswald] said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left."

*

Well, who were these guys? The Secret Service was satisfied they were WFAA's Pierce Allman and Terrence Ford, who had watched the motorcade from the corner of Houston & Elm. On Don Roberdeau's map (http://imgcashz.imageshack.us/img160/7642/dpjpg110508mb6.gif) they are just west of the extreme portion of the turn, about midway between the Towner & Willis families.

"...Upon hearing the shots [Allman] ran across Elm Street to a couple who had fallen to the ground. He asked the man if he was alright; the man stated that he was. Allman then ran up an incline toward Houston Street. Upon reaching the top of the incline, he turned and ran down. He stated that he is at a loss to explain this action other than he was extremely excited and upset by the assassination.

Mr. Allman then stated that he ran full speed into the Texas School Book Depository Building with the intention of locating a phone and calling his television station WFAA. Mr. Allman stated that after he had entered the front door of the building, he had emerged into a hallway and there he met a white male whom he could not further identify. He asked this white male for the location of a telephone.

Mr. Allman stated that he did not identify himself to this person; stated further that he was extremely excited at the time and that he could not remember anything about the person except for the fact that he was a white male. Mr. Allman has seen pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and could not positively state whether or not he is the one of whom he inquired.

Mr. Allman stated that the person pointed out a phone to him which was located in an open area on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository; that he immediately went to the telephone and stayed at this position for approximately 25 minutes talking to his office. Mr. Allman stated that he was accompanied by a fellow worker, Terry Ford.

During the above interview it was noted that Mr. Allman carries his press pass in a leather case similar to cases carried by Federal agents and police officers.

...[Ford] followed Allman into the building, walking on his right side. He remembers Allman turning to his left to ask a white male the location of a telephone. Ford stated the white male, whom he can neither identify nor describe, indicated in some manner that a telephone was inside a room directly ahead. Ford does not remember Allman identifying himself at this time. Ford stated that he did not have a press card at this time and did not identify himself to anyone until he left the building about one hour later."


Allman gave the first news broadcast from the Book Depository area, which can be heard at the beginning of this excellent video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tsR8PGx2ZE

*

We can put a clock on his post-assassination movements. Apparently he ran about 200 feet acros Elm down to the Newman family, who had been standing across from the presidential limousine at Z-313 and thrown themselves to the ground. Allman then ran up the gentle slope of grass at the east end of the pergola, but "extremely excited and upset" he ran back down. He then ran "full speed" to the Book Depository.

Allman's total travel distance was approximately 200 yards. He reached the Depository between 75-90 seconds after Z-313, and perhaps even sooner. As anyone who has ever participated in sports knows quite well, a lot can happen in 75-90 seconds and this can feel like an exceedingly long timespan.

*

Although for many months I've held the opinion that Oswald had encountered Army intelligence agent James Powell- who carried a similar bifold ID case as that of the Secret Service (and presumably WFAA directors)- I am now satisfied that Powell was the man in the sunglasses & suitcoat beside the driver's-side window of the white laundry van in Altgens 5: http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=40&fullsize=1

He did not have a crew-cut, wheras WCD 354 describes Allman as "brown hair, crew cut, brown eyes, about 35." And I now agree with the Secret Service's conclusion that it was Allman who had displayed his ID to Oswald, even though Allman didn't remember doing that.

It may be appreciated that the Truly-Baker-Reid lunchroom allegation, which brought Oswald to the front entrance about 135 seconds after the shots, added a spurious 60-75 seconds on to Allman's arrival at the front entrance. No wonder that neither Allman nor the Newmans were called to testify before the Warren Commission.

*

Oswald was on the front steps between 12:31-12:32, and most certainly was not the 6th-floor shooter. But if he had participated in the assassination plot, this misrecognition of Allman's ID may have spurred him to leave the area immediately.

According to Fritz's report, "[Oswald] said there was so much excitement he didn't think there would be any more work done that day." FBI agents James Hosty & James Bookhout filed a joint report on November 23 regarding the interrogation of November 22: "[Oswald] said that because of all the confusion there would be no work performed that afternoon so he decided to go home."

But Bookhout filed a further report on November 25 regarding what had been ascertained on November 22: "[Oswald] stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building." (Warren Report, pp. 600, 613, 619)

Oswald placed Shelley on the front steps during the same timeframe, as Shelley would allege in his testimony, that he & Lovelady were in the parking lot behind the pergola area.

The "five or ten minute" estimate of this conversation's length strikes one as a loose guesstimate by Oswald- or even an insertion by Bookhout. But because of Shelley's arrest that afternoon ("The Glaze Letters", The Fourth Decade, Vol. 6 No. 4, p. 7) we can be sure that this conversation took place.

The earliest known photo that I am aware of (#263 at http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm) places a Jim Murray photo of "Elm & Houston & Dal-Tex from in front of TSBD" at 12:33 (http://www.jfkassasinationforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=908&fullsize=1)

Chances are extremely good that Oswald had already left the building by that time.

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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by Guest on Sun 17 Oct 2010, 6:46 am

Just a progress report- lately I've been trying to establish a definitive and somewhat certifiable time estimate as to when Allman arrived at the front steps of the Depository. Corrobable elements are scant, and it's going to require an exhaustive look through film footage, articles & forums.

Allman did not react near-immediately to the shooting and break into a run, as his Secret Service interview suggests. There is a 1998 Texas Monthly interview of Allman & the Newmans (they met for the 1st time after 35 years) where Bill Newman explains that he had already stood back up- after laying prone over his child- when he was approached by two WFAA men, who asked him if he was alright.

Newman stood back up roughly 40 seconds after the shots. And my search through many dozens of photos has yet to locate Allman.

Allman adds a key detail in his Texas Monthly interview: as he was running up the east side of the knoll, "Bob Jackson from the Times-Herald was running behind me."

Jackson had been sitting on top of the rear seat of Camera Car 3, which didn't stop until it got all the way down to the Stemmons Freeway turn- about 150 yards beyond the Newmans (WCD 87, p. 1018). So the Allman timing question boils down to when did Camera Car 3 stop.

To make a rough sketch for now:

Camera Car 3 stops at Z-313 + 30 seconds?

Jackson runs 150 yards in 30 sec

Jackson reaches Newmans, & then Allman reaches top of incline in 5 sec

Allman runs down incline in 10 sec

Allman pauses for 5 sec

Allman runs 200 feet to the Depository in 20 sec

Total: 100 seconds

That's still 35 seconds before Oswald officially reaches the front entrance.

So I'm going to continue looking into this Allman question, hoping to outline a time-itinerary with as narrow a statistical margin of error as possible.




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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Oct 2010, 1:39 pm

Well, what a surprise- I came up with an estimate of 160 seconds last night, for Allman's arrival at the Depository. And today's inquiry has focused on the speed of Camera Car 3 (from the Bell & Hughes films- only very short clips) and Jackson's run back from the Stemmons Freeway curve to the Newman family. My final estimate will still come in very near 160.

I'm hoping to present a "formal" estimate, with maps & such, at Lancer in a few days.

The big key was finding out the time that Dillard 3 was snapped- it shows Bob Jackson up on the rear seat- Dillard had hopped off and taken a picture of the camera cars approaching the triple underpass. Jeff Rollins determined a few years ago that it was snapped about Z-313 + 35-40 sec

There's no other pictures of Jackson.

It turns out that the curve of the Stemmons Freeway starts about 250 yards away from the Newmans. So I've given Camera Car 3 about 35 seconds to get up there (from its spot in Dillard 3), and Jackson about 50 seconds to run back.

I couldn't find any indication that anyone has ever attempted to analyse & figure out Allman's estimated time of arrival before.

What's interesting is that on the other side of the panorama, from Oswald's perspective- if we grant his encounter at 2 minutes with Mrs. Reid, and walk him downstairs at 3 miles per hour for 100 feet to reach the downstairs lobby- he arrives at about 143 seconds.

Which seems to me inconsistent with the statement he gave on Nov. 22 to Sorrels, that "two men (one with a crew cut) had interceptedhim at the front door"

I don't believe Mrs. Reid's story, but I'm at a loss at the moment to conjecture just what Oswald did after the shooting- if he was on the 1st near the storeroom, and went to the front entrance & encountered Baker
there, he perhaps went up to the 2nd for a bit & came back down near the 160-second mark.

Or, if he was on the 2nd, perhaps went down slightly after Baker had come through, and encountered some other officer.

Anyways, Oswald watched Allman reach the phone at the will-call counter, and then left the premises. It looks like my estimate for his departure will be about 12:30:50

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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

Post by barto on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 6:09 am

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Re: Givens Did Not Return to the 6th Floor

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